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Arguments for Alex Smith and Shaun Hill to Start

Originally posted by mayo63:
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Too early for calls for Alex Smith to start.

However, Singletary missed an opportunity to get Alex Smith some game time and QB development when the Falcons game was well out of hand.

The game was out of hand, but you had to keep Hill in there to at least get the offense going. I think it would have been wrong to send Smith in, considering it wasn't Hill's fault the offense was working. Now, if it happens again, then I think you have to bring Smith in. But, only if Hill struggles.

When has the offense worked this year? A couple of drives over five games? The sub-par play of the O may not have been Hill's fault entirely, but he has been a big part of it and he certainly hasn't done anything to make it better. Through more than a quarter of the season, not just against Atlanta.
  • mayo49
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Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by mayo63:
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Too early for calls for Alex Smith to start.

However, Singletary missed an opportunity to get Alex Smith some game time and QB development when the Falcons game was well out of hand.

The game was out of hand, but you had to keep Hill in there to at least get the offense going. I think it would have been wrong to send Smith in, considering it wasn't Hill's fault the offense was working. Now, if it happens again, then I think you have to bring Smith in. But, only if Hill struggles.

When has the offense worked this year? A couple of drives over five games? The sub-par play of the O may not have been Hill's fault entirely, but he has been a big part of it and he certainly hasn't done anything to make it better. Through more than a quarter of the season, not just against Atlanta.

I should've said it wasn't Hill's fault the offense wasn't working. But, Hill has done enough to win us 3 games, so I think you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he has another bad game then I think it's time to put Smith in.

[ Edited by mayo63 on Oct 14, 2009 at 06:22:56 ]
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by dr8van:
Hill has had 1 bad performance so far in the 2 years or so he has started for the niners. That 1 bad performance was a total team collapse and Sing stated the team as a whole was not prepared for the game against the falcons.

WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

He hasn't played one good game yet this year. And he had plenty of not-so-good performances last year as well. But especially this year, he's been 99% horrible 100% of the time. Not just the Atlanta game.

If it were just the Atlanta game and he played well in the other four games I don't think there would be much controversy right now.

This is what Ive been watching....

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6169

please refer to his QB rating 86.1 vs SEA, 94.6 @ MIN, 104.9 vs STL and 45.7 vs ATL. Also, I was watching the MIN game when he threw two TDS to VD in the second half to put the niners in the lead late in the game. Please also see his season stats so far… 898 yds, 5 TD QB rating 80.7. Hill is very efficient and proficient at what he is ask to do. So theres what I have been watching. Iwould ask the same of you, but to be frank, Im not sure it really matters Mr. 99% and 100% based on nothing.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by kidash98:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by kidash98:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by baltien:
While I would love nothing more to see Alex succeed on this team, I do not think it would be wise for him to start. The chief reason being, Hill showed us last year that he deserves the starting role.

And until he shows us that he can't handle it (by his play), it should remain his job.

Also, imagine if Smith starts and then tanks. It would be detrimental to the morale of our team, and all but erase the (little) progress that we made last year.

Alex is young, and can only benefit by sitting awhile longer and learning.

But then the argument could be 5 OC's in 5 years and we could yet again be looking at another QB competition.

I like Alex Smith, I really do....

But what's the difference with him learning new offense every year and with S. Hill learning the same thing and succeding??? Given, he (Smith) was hurt last year but it seems like Hill was able to adapt to the changes and play whereas Smith was stuck! Again, I do hope that Smith proves me wong but for the time being, I think the QB is for Hill to lose.

- 98

The difference is, from a statement that his college coach Urban Myer gave, that hes needs time in the same offense to fully show his potential (OK maybe not in those words, but I'm sure I'm pretty close). But yes, I do agree with you Oliver, the QB job SHOULD be Hill's until he proves otherwise.

Then with that reasoning, shouldn't he learn the system first before playing/starting???

- 98

I would agree with that. But in Smith's case or in a number overall draftee's case, I believe in you pay'em you play'em approach.

This is one good case right here. Smith is supposed to be a quick learner, then why does he always held back learning a new system? The same new systems Shawn Hill jumped right into, last year and this year. Why are these newly drafted QB's jumping right into new systems, and looking like pros already. The "Alex still has to learn" is done! all we want now is performance.
Most importantly, we need a consistent offensive philosophy. It would be nice to have an OC last longer than a year.

That said, Shaun Hill should be a career backup in any system. Alex Smith has more athletic potential, but suffers from vaginitis. We need a real QB, via draft or free agency or trade, I don't care. Hill and Smith can stay, but only if they're standing on the sideline with clipboard in hand.

And all the optimism about Nate Davis is extremely puzzling. Not only has he not done anything to merit any consideration to start, what we actually do know about him is less than impressive. He played reasonably well at a small school and no NFL team really wanted to draft him. We got him in the 5th round. He has a learning disability that might make it difficult for him to read a playbook. He doesn't hold a football by the laces. (OK, I admit it, I'm piling on.)

Giving Davis the starting job would be like giving Barack Obama the Nobel Peace Prize.
Originally posted by dr8van:
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by dr8van:
Hill has had 1 bad performance so far in the 2 years or so he has started for the niners. That 1 bad performance was a total team collapse and Sing stated the team as a whole was not prepared for the game against the falcons.

WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

He hasn't played one good game yet this year. And he had plenty of not-so-good performances last year as well. But especially this year, he's been 99% horrible 100% of the time. Not just the Atlanta game.

If it were just the Atlanta game and he played well in the other four games I don't think there would be much controversy right now.

This is what Ive been watching....

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6169

please refer to his QB rating 86.1 vs SEA, 94.6 @ MIN, 104.9 vs STL and 45.7 vs ATL. Also, I was watching the MIN game when he threw two TDS to VD in the second half to put the niners in the lead late in the game. Please also see his season stats so far… 898 yds, 5 TD QB rating 80.7. Hill is very efficient and proficient at what he is ask to do. So theres what I have been watching. Iwould ask the same of you, but to be frank, Im not sure it really matters Mr. 99% and 100% based on nothing.

I have a problem with QB ratings, and even pass completion percentage. Hill has a great 3rd down completion percentage, but what good is that if we don't get the first down (and we aren't!). Same for QB rating -- he has a decent rating, but can't effectively move the team when it matters, can't get first downs when we need them, etc.

Are the offenses problems all on Hill? No, of course not. But at least some of the problems have to do with the QB. He has a decent QB rating --so what. Can he make the throws to win games, to move the chains? Unfortunately it doesn't seem he can.
Originally posted by dobophile:
Most importantly, we need a consistent offensive philosophy. It would be nice to have an OC last longer than a year.

That said, Shaun Hill should be a career backup in any system. Alex Smith has more athletic potential, but suffers from vaginitis. We need a real QB, via draft or free agency or trade, I don't care. Hill and Smith can stay, but only if they're standing on the sideline with clipboard in hand.

And all the optimism about Nate Davis is extremely puzzling. Not only has he not done anything to merit any consideration to start, what we actually do know about him is less than impressive. He played reasonably well at a small school and no NFL team really wanted to draft him. We got him in the 5th round. He has a learning disability that might make it difficult for him to read a playbook. He doesn't hold a football by the laces. (OK, I admit it, I'm piling on.)

Giving Davis the starting job would be like giving Barack Obama the Nobel Peace Prize.

I am optimistic about Nate Davis but I don't think he is ready to start yet. He has a great arm, good poise and pocket presence... but needs to learn more of the speed of the games and prolly needs to learn our playbook better as well as reading and baiting defenses. But I think he could be our future
Id rather have a QB that has trouble converting 3rd downs than a QB that turns the ball over consistently. Period Point Blank. We have to work with what we have. Choose the lesser of two evils.
Originally posted by wwrivers:
Originally posted by dr8van:
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by dr8van:
Hill has had 1 bad performance so far in the 2 years or so he has started for the niners. That 1 bad performance was a total team collapse and Sing stated the team as a whole was not prepared for the game against the falcons.

WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

He hasn't played one good game yet this year. And he had plenty of not-so-good performances last year as well. But especially this year, he's been 99% horrible 100% of the time. Not just the Atlanta game.

If it were just the Atlanta game and he played well in the other four games I don't think there would be much controversy right now.

This is what Ive been watching....

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6169

please refer to his QB rating 86.1 vs SEA, 94.6 @ MIN, 104.9 vs STL and 45.7 vs ATL. Also, I was watching the MIN game when he threw two TDS to VD in the second half to put the niners in the lead late in the game. Please also see his season stats so far… 898 yds, 5 TD QB rating 80.7. Hill is very efficient and proficient at what he is ask to do. So theres what I have been watching. Iwould ask the same of you, but to be frank, Im not sure it really matters Mr. 99% and 100% based on nothing.

I have a problem with QB ratings, and even pass completion percentage. Hill has a great 3rd down completion percentage, but what good is that if we don't get the first down (and we aren't!). Same for QB rating -- he has a decent rating, but can't effectively move the team when it matters, can't get first downs when we need them, etc.

Are the offenses problems all on Hill? No, of course not. But at least some of the problems have to do with the QB. He has a decent QB rating --so what. Can he make the throws to win games, to move the chains? Unfortunately it doesn't seem he can.

Proof positive. He did it to take the lead. The d gave it away at the end. I guess b/c he didnt get enough of a pass rush on Favre, or because he let the receiver get to the back of the end zone or because his defensive playing on that last drive sucked, thats why Shaun Hill cant get the job done?

pay special attention at the 2:53 mark!

My argument is this.


Shaun Hill > Alex Smith
This year...shore up the o-line, and evaluate Hill for a few more games. If problems are clearly because of Hill, then a switch has to be made.

Next year...Get another QB, and that player or Nate Davis might be looking at both Hill & Smith in his rearview mirror.
Originally posted by dr8van:
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by dr8van:
Hill has had 1 bad performance so far in the 2 years or so he has started for the niners. That 1 bad performance was a total team collapse and Sing stated the team as a whole was not prepared for the game against the falcons.

WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

He hasn't played one good game yet this year. And he had plenty of not-so-good performances last year as well. But especially this year, he's been 99% horrible 100% of the time. Not just the Atlanta game.

If it were just the Atlanta game and he played well in the other four games I don't think there would be much controversy right now.

This is what Ive been watching....

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6169

please refer to his QB rating 86.1 vs SEA, 94.6 @ MIN, 104.9 vs STL and 45.7 vs ATL. Also, I was watching the MIN game when he threw two TDS to VD in the second half to put the niners in the lead late in the game. Please also see his season stats so far… 898 yds, 5 TD QB rating 80.7. Hill is very efficient and proficient at what he is ask to do. So theres what I have been watching. Iwould ask the same of you, but to be frank, Im not sure it really matters Mr. 99% and 100% based on nothing.

Ugh people and there misleading stats
Hill has no pocket presence, no accuracy, acts like a vagina in the pocket when the rush comes and runs into his oline, doesnt throw to his wrs yes they have been open on occasion, he is a dumpoff. Saints, Philly, Giants, Arizona, Green Bay, Vikings, and even a healthy Seattle team will put up points on our D. We need a QB that can put up points. Im going to buy into your stats here, so whats your boys rating if we throw in the viks pick where the time ran out ( he still threw it, made the read and all that) the rams pick and arizona should have caught one of those picks in his "GW" drive in arizona so whats that 5tds and 5 picks.......
Originally posted by redmanc07:
Originally posted by bigmike55:
We're 3-2 with Shaun Hill. (shouldve been 4-1 (minnesota game))

Until Hill starts doing HORRIBLE and we possibly continue at 3-9 or something, Hill is our guy.

Alex Smith sucks. Period.

What is your definition of horrible. Because 15 of 38 for 198yds and an int looks pretty bad to me. He's only completing 56 percent of his passes this season. Smith sucks but even he can do that.

Okay.. 15 of 38 with an int isn't great. I'll give you that, but I will point out that the interception was caused by a tipped/deflected pass. Not really Hill's fault. But look at the entire season so far. Don't just pull stats from one of our worst games AS A TEAM overall in YEARS.

Hill's stats for THIS ENTIRE SEASON...

81/144 5 TDs / 2 INTs 80.7% passer rating SACKED 16 times in 5 games

I wouldn't consider those stats absolutely horrible. Like I said, we're 3-2. 3-0 in our division (yeah it's a weak division, we all know that, who cares). I don't want to speak to soon but if we get into the playoffs, anything can happen. Look at the Tards from last year. Nobody predicted them to make it to the superbowl. And they actually had a chance at winning it.

But back to the topic at hand.. there is no more competition. Shaun Hill is our starting QB. Alex Smith is the backup. The end.
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
Originally posted by dr8van:
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by dr8van:
Hill has had 1 bad performance so far in the 2 years or so he has started for the niners. That 1 bad performance was a total team collapse and Sing stated the team as a whole was not prepared for the game against the falcons.

WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

He hasn't played one good game yet this year. And he had plenty of not-so-good performances last year as well. But especially this year, he's been 99% horrible 100% of the time. Not just the Atlanta game.

If it were just the Atlanta game and he played well in the other four games I don't think there would be much controversy right now.

This is what Ive been watching....

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6169

please refer to his QB rating 86.1 vs SEA, 94.6 @ MIN, 104.9 vs STL and 45.7 vs ATL. Also, I was watching the MIN game when he threw two TDS to VD in the second half to put the niners in the lead late in the game. Please also see his season stats so far… 898 yds, 5 TD QB rating 80.7. Hill is very efficient and proficient at what he is ask to do. So theres what I have been watching. Iwould ask the same of you, but to be frank, Im not sure it really matters Mr. 99% and 100% based on nothing.

Ugh people and there misleading stats
Hill has no pocket presence, no accuracy, acts like a vagina in the pocket when the rush comes and runs into his oline, doesnt throw to his wrs yes they have been open on occasion, he is a dumpoff. Saints, Philly, Giants, Arizona, Green Bay, Vikings, and even a healthy Seattle team will put up points on our D. We need a QB that can put up points. Im going to buy into your stats here, so whats your boys rating if we throw in the viks pick where the time ran out ( he still threw it, made the read and all that) the rams pick and arizona should have caught one of those picks in his "GW" drive in arizona so whats that 5tds and 5 picks.......

I didnt realize we went off to a what if fantasy land. Okay! No need for the reality check then.

Back on planet earth, I am confident Shaun Hill and the offense will get this thing right. When they do, I will be sure to bring this thread back up and nail all the band wagon haters. Im not sure you guys should even consider yourself niner fans, if you're going to create what if scenarios to illustrate a point that is illogical when looking at real data. But hey, Im a guy and guys think logically. Women on the other hand.... just for the sake of .

True fans are fans all the way through. Shaun won this job in training camp. He's our QB and I got his back! This team WILL be better with him under center!

GO NINERS!
  • x49ersx123
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The most difficult decision of the Mike Singletary administration will soon have to be made: Who to start at QB. In an attempt to be fair to both parties, I present arguments for both Alex Smith and Shaun Hill.

According to Matt Barrows, Alex Smith has looked healthier, stronger, more accurate this past month than in the previous two years. He was the unquestioned starting quarterback two years ago before his shoulder injury, and was a player who seemed to have a strong upside to his game. Did his shoulder injury two years ago affect his ability to play at a high level? Surely. The question is: How much?

Smith presents the best long-term QB answer for the Niners, when stacked against Hill. Alex is four years younger, possesses a stronger arm, and has greater mobility in and out of the pocket.

Supporters of Smith will state that the Niners' OL has never given Alex the chance to develop his game, as he has been running for his life the moment he stood behind the center.

Critics will say that: He simply doesn't get it; although intelligent, he simply has not been able to transition from the shotgun to playing under the center; that he lacks the characteristic of being a strong leader. Critics will argue that he slumps his head too much, isn't a guy who can rally the team effectively, doesn't inspire confidence. All of these statements would be true to some degree. Even the most strident Smith fans would have to admit that these are specific areas of improvement that must happen for Smith to have a starting role in this league.

Shaun Hill has been the super-sub the previous two seasons. His high winning percentage, and strong QB rating in 2008, point to a guy as a winner. He is a terrific leader, and even though he doesn't have a dynamic arm, he gets the ball in most places at most times (although it surely isn't pretty). He is consistent, and does a solid job at limiting turnovers in most games. Hill is a solid game manager. Players rally behind him, more so than Smith. Hill has the necessary confidence that Smith has lacked at times. Finally, while Smith has struggled to adjust to four OC's in four years (as predicted last season, the 2009 season would make for a fifth OC), Hill seems to assimilate each offense with greater ease.

Critics will state that he has limited upside to his game due to sub-standard arm strength, that he cannot make a number of throws on the field, that he doesn't have the ability to stretch the field. They will state that while Hill must be a game manager to win, Smith can post points on the board, that the offense can be more dynamic.

The Niners have a tough call. Outside of the first month of his rookie season, Smith has never come off the bench in his career, and this could be a good thing or bad thing. In one sense, it might take the pressure off of him to produce right away. However, it might also hurt his confidence to be a backup to a NFL journeyman QB. The momentum this spring has been with Smith. How would he react to not getting the starting role?

On the flip side, Hill has been outstanding in a backup role. The team would have tremendous confidence in Hill if Smith went down with an injury in a game, or simply was not producing. However, he has never gone into a season as the starter, and the expectations for greater offensive production may not match his skill set. Entering the season as a starter is a far different animal than coming off the bench. And yet, when Hill plays, the Niners win. Would that change if he started the season at QB, instead of a relief pitcher?

In the end, the Niners will have to answer the question: Which QB gives us a better chance to win? And the answer could be based upon their thoughts on the offensive line and defense. If the Niners have confidence that they will be able to run the ball efffectively, limit the QB to 20-25 throws a game, and have a studly defense, Shaun Hill would appear to be the better option. However, if the Niners really want to open up the offense in 2009, and feel like the defense will not be strong enough to carry the team this season, Smith may be the better option.

There will certainly be more than 1,000 Smith-Hill/Hill-Smith threads once training camp emerges, and the daily drama will surely stoke fires. Ultimately, the team needs to strongly endorse one guy as the starter, or else risk a tough year. Teams with training camp battles at QB, and uncertainty entering the season, struggle to win games, and generally have sub-500 seasons. The goal should be to announce the QB as soon as possible so that everyone is on the same page.

Bold 2010 Prediction: There will not be a QB controversy for the Niners in 2010. Either Hill will show that he is a starter in this league, or not. Smith will show that he is a stable franchise QB to build a team around. Or, the Niners will target a QB in free agency or the draft, to start right away.

Cheers.