There are 80 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

OFFENSIVE LINE PLAY: Most Important

Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
I saw Boone in there.

How did he do and why was he in?
They were great today. They dominated the LOS at some points of the game. THey gave Alex enough time to throw.
From latopia
May 9th, 2012 at 12:14 am

"Last season, left tackle Joe Staley became the first 49ers offensive tackle to make the Pro Bowl since Harris Barton in 1993. Left guard Mike Iupati and center Jonathan Goodwin were first-team alternates."

Yet, SF's oline wasn't much better in 2011 than they were in 2010 and in some cases — worse — according to metrics which are *NOT* altered or persuaded by "peer perception". That perception includes the non-perception of opposing players who can't or don't recognize/appreciate play design and/or schemes that create mismatches from marginal OL execution.

Evidence.
According to FootballOutsiders (FO), SF's oline ranked #21 in run-blocking (based on 4.17 adjusted line yards per carry) and #25 in pass-protect for 2011 (based on an adjusted sack rate of 8.4%).

From the same FO table, SF also placed in the bottom-half of the league in run-stuffs allowed (#22@20%), 2nd-level yards (#22@1.12) and power-rank (#29@51% success-rate). So a #25 rank in pass-protect is actually *consistent* with an OL that allows consistent penetration run or pass, edge or POA.

In 2010, FO ranked SF's oline #13 in run-blocking (based on 4.14 adjusted line yards per carry) and #30 in pass-protect (based on an adjusted sack rate of 8.9%). Yet, 2010′s OL was actually (run) stuffed less often (17% v. 20% in 2011) despite averaging .03 less ALY while the sack-rate was just about identical to 2011 (8.9% v. 8.8% in 2011).

Ditto AdvancedNFLStats (ANS), which ranked SF's oline even lower than FO in 2011 — #31 to be precise, run+pass combined. The breakdown: the 9ers ranked #29 in run-epa (expected points added) and #26 in run-wpa (win probability added), dead last in pass-wpa (#32) and #29 in pass-epa.

Most important ANS stat: tackles for loss (run+pass), where SF ranked #31 in 2011 by giving up 83 TFLs — worse than any team except Chicago (92).

Whereas in 2010, ANS ranked SF #29 overall (run+pass). But here again, reality beats perception as the 2010 unit actually surrendered less TFLs (69) than the unit in 2011 (83).

Bottom line: Pro Bowl berths are nice, but they don't really tell us much about quality of execution or performance of the group which we can match to our eyes (e.g. DVRs).

In other words, Staley, Goodwin & Iupati rodes the SAME wave of success Alex Smith did in 2011 except Smith got no joy for his efforts despite *quantitative* evidence which suggests Smith played a LARGER role in whatever offensive success SF managed than his oline OR stone-handed pass-catchers (RBs, WRs, TEs) NO MATTER WHAT media skeptics claim.

Moreover, 9er OL performance in recent years has been consistently shoddy — evidence a unit which is ROUTINELY penetrated, violated, raped whether run (stuffs) or pass (sacks) but managed to *escape* deserved scrutiny last season thanx to 1) an offensive scheme that creates/expolits mismatches based on timing + motion 2) a QB who did much more than he gets credit for by a) making plays b) minimizing mistakes.

Very interesting to Cam's refute that our OL was ranked #20 last year. Thoughts?
What I don't understand from last year, was occasionally they would put Justin Smith in to block on running plays towards the end of the season. With the last one on a critical 3rd and 1 play against the Giants. Where Justin whiffed on his block letting the Giants defender to the runner for a lost. Why Justin on such critical play... Can't they put someone in with more experience on offense to do the same thing?
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,757
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
What I don't understand from last year, was occasionally they would put Justin Smith in to block on running plays towards the end of the season. With the last one on a critical 3rd and 1 play against the Giants. Where Justin whiffed on his block letting the Giants defender to the runner for a lost. Why Justin on such critical play... Can't they put someone in with more experience on offense to do the same thing?
that and the infamous reverse in the rain were really bad blunders by the coaches that day. some think it is illegal to second guess our coaches but in that game last year, you it was perfectly proper to question them. Yes smith has a blocker?? you could have put big soap in there is that is what you wanted to do. lots of mistakes by many that day bud
Originally posted by NCommand:
From latopia


Very interesting to Cam's refute that our OL was ranked #20 last year. Thoughts?

all that too hard to understandz... so i says Alex is teh suxxorz!
i thought it got a lot better as the season went on

they were 2 outlier games in ravens and cowboys where the o line just flat out sucked i mean really really just pathethic to watch

obviusly we wont have the o line of patriots or the colts a couple years ago but i think it will be very good i would say top 10
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,757
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
i thought it got a lot better as the season went on

they were 2 outlier games in ravens and cowboys where the o line just flat out sucked i mean really really just pathethic to watch

obviusly we wont have the o line of patriots or the colts a couple years ago but i think it will be very good i would say top 10
the subtraction of chilo can not be stated enough as being a positive
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
From latopia


Very interesting to Cam's refute that our OL was ranked #20 last year. Thoughts?

all that too hard to understandz... so i says Alex is teh suxxorz!

Hahahaha!

It's a little technical. But basically, several sights review snap-by-snap analysis of every OL in the league and define their criteria as such...and we rank from 20th to 32nd despite "perception" that we're better than that b/c one guy went to the Pro Bowl and two others we alternates and/or high draft picks. We've got lost of room for improvement if we are to take the next step and reclaim our dynasty!
Originally posted by NCommand:
From latopia
May 9th, 2012 at 12:14 am

"Last season, left tackle Joe Staley became the first 49ers offensive tackle to make the Pro Bowl since Harris Barton in 1993. Left guard Mike Iupati and center Jonathan Goodwin were first-team alternates."

Yet, SF's oline wasn't much better in 2011 than they were in 2010 and in some cases — worse — according to metrics which are *NOT* altered or persuaded by "peer perception". That perception includes the non-perception of opposing players who can't or don't recognize/appreciate play design and/or schemes that create mismatches from marginal OL execution.

Evidence.
According to FootballOutsiders (FO), SF's oline ranked #21 in run-blocking (based on 4.17 adjusted line yards per carry) and #25 in pass-protect for 2011 (based on an adjusted sack rate of 8.4%).

From the same FO table, SF also placed in the bottom-half of the league in run-stuffs allowed (#22@20%), 2nd-level yards (#22@1.12) and power-rank (#29@51% success-rate). So a #25 rank in pass-protect is actually *consistent* with an OL that allows consistent penetration run or pass, edge or POA.

In 2010, FO ranked SF's oline #13 in run-blocking (based on 4.14 adjusted line yards per carry) and #30 in pass-protect (based on an adjusted sack rate of 8.9%). Yet, 2010′s OL was actually (run) stuffed less often (17% v. 20% in 2011) despite averaging .03 less ALY while the sack-rate was just about identical to 2011 (8.9% v. 8.8% in 2011).

Ditto AdvancedNFLStats (ANS), which ranked SF's oline even lower than FO in 2011 — #31 to be precise, run+pass combined. The breakdown: the 9ers ranked #29 in run-epa (expected points added) and #26 in run-wpa (win probability added), dead last in pass-wpa (#32) and #29 in pass-epa.

Most important ANS stat: tackles for loss (run+pass), where SF ranked #31 in 2011 by giving up 83 TFLs — worse than any team except Chicago (92).

Whereas in 2010, ANS ranked SF #29 overall (run+pass). But here again, reality beats perception as the 2010 unit actually surrendered less TFLs (69) than the unit in 2011 (83).

Bottom line: Pro Bowl berths are nice, but they don't really tell us much about quality of execution or performance of the group which we can match to our eyes (e.g. DVRs).

In other words, Staley, Goodwin & Iupati rodes the SAME wave of success Alex Smith did in 2011 except Smith got no joy for his efforts despite *quantitative* evidence which suggests Smith played a LARGER role in whatever offensive success SF managed than his oline OR stone-handed pass-catchers (RBs, WRs, TEs) NO MATTER WHAT media skeptics claim.

Moreover, 9er OL performance in recent years has been consistently shoddy — evidence a unit which is ROUTINELY penetrated, violated, raped whether run (stuffs) or pass (sacks) but managed to *escape* deserved scrutiny last season thanx to 1) an offensive scheme that creates/expolits mismatches based on timing + motion 2) a QB who did much more than he gets credit for by a) making plays b) minimizing mistakes.

Very interesting to Cam's refute that our OL was ranked #20 last year. Thoughts?


How does Football Outsiders rate an O-lineman?

For example, one player gets bullrushed into the pocket, but the QB throws a touchdown, vs another guy who gets bullrushed into the pocket, and the QB takes a sack.
our o-line blows
Originally posted by NCommand:
From latopia


Very interesting to Cam's refute that our OL was ranked #20 last year. Thoughts?

Thanks NC! Most of us saw that all year and it is very understandible, while a few still want to blame Smith for being sacked in less that two seconds. LOL! It takes time for an OLine to learn a new system and become a unit. I was being really optimistic when I predicted it would happen by midseason, but it certainly began to happen midseason. This year it should further develop and the replacement of Rachal should help...although that is not a given. The reason I like Kilgore is that during TC he demonstrated a tenaciousness in keeping his guy out of a play that was not part of Rachal's game. Now...can he do that consistently against first stringers? Hope someone can!
I wonder how our road/home splits compare from 2011 to 2012.
What do you people have against Sims? He did a fantastic job subbing for Staley. Sure its time for us to find a starting guard but jeez, hate for Sims? I don't get it.
Originally posted by WeAreLegend:
What do you people have against Sims? He did a fantastic job subbing for Staley. Sure its time for us to find a starting guard but jeez, hate for Sims? I don't get it.

When did he last sub for Staley? And check the date of the postings against him.