OFFENSIVE LINE PLAY: Most Important

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Yes. Agreed. The problems aren't ALL the O-Line. They also aren't ALL Alex Smith.

Nor did I say they were

No, but you said the QB play was worse than the O-line play. I disagree.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Wrong. A line can be good in Run Blocking, but be bad Pass Blocking. Just look at Anthony Davis last year.

If a QB is getting crushed back there, its not because he's making the line look bad.

Thats not the point. The point is they arent the worst line in the league

No, but they were below average.

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:
that doesnt sound past tense to me. thats sounds like an argument for the present. you didnt say the line wasnt good. you said the line isnt good.


my apologies if i misunderstood you but thats not what you typed.

That comment is 100% accurate whether you take it as past tense or present tense. There are more productive and less experienced QBs winning more games than Alex Smith on teams with less talent at OL, and offense in general in the NFL. You think that Ryan Fitzpatrick has a better team around him than Alex Smith?

Ryan Fitzpatrick 4-11 3000 yards 23 tds

Alex Smith 3-9 2370 yards 14 tds

The Bills have far worse talent on offense than the 49ers both at the line and at the skill positions. Not only that, but Fitzpatrick was playing as a 2nd year starter on arguably the worst all around team in the NFL.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
That comment is 100% accurate whether you take it as past tense or present tense. There are more productive and less experienced QBs winning more games than Alex Smith on teams with less talent at OL, and offense in general in the NFL. You think that Ryan Fitzpatrick has a better team around him than Alex Smith?

Ryan Fitzpatrick 4-11 3000 yards 23 tds

Alex Smith 3-9 2370 yards 14 tds

The Bills have far worse talent on offense than the 49ers both at the line and at the skill positions. Not only that, but Fitzpatrick was playing as a 2nd year starter on arguably the worst all around team in the NFL.

yep i agree, why do you think we fired our hc? was steve young a bad qb or was tampa bay just a horribly ran franchise making it impossible for him to succeed there? hindsight shows the latter.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:
that doesnt sound past tense to me. thats sounds like an argument for the present. you didnt say the line wasnt good. you said the line isnt good.


my apologies if i misunderstood you but thats not what you typed.

That comment is 100% accurate whether you take it as past tense or present tense. There are more productive and less experienced QBs winning more games than Alex Smith on teams with less talent at OL, and offense in general in the NFL. You think that Ryan Fitzpatrick has a better team around him than Alex Smith?

Ryan Fitzpatrick 4-11 3000 yards 23 tds

Alex Smith 3-9 2370 yards 14 tds

The Bills have far worse talent on offense than the 49ers both at the line and at the skill positions. Not only that, but Fitzpatrick was playing as a 2nd year starter on arguably the worst all around team in the NFL.

Bills didn't have Singletary.

I get your point. I'm not saying that Alex is a great QB, but he's not as bad as peeps make him out to be. He's had the deck stacked against him since the beginning. If you wanted to write an instruction manual on how to make a QB fail it would only read "See Alex Smith".

Maybe he will never amount to anything and wouldn't have even in the best of conditions, but I don't think there is any way of knowing that given the trainwreck he's been subjected to.

Great thread! Thanks Bill.

Nolan Sr. drafted Fahnhorst in 1974 and Monte drafted Cross in 1976. Both were second round choices and both were pro bowlers with Walsh.

It is tiring to hear that we have invested high draft choices and thus our OLine should be great. Last year saw two rookies and a new starter at center. Rachal is also young and regressing. Staley was injured as was Heitmann. How does this look like the makings of a good line? Yes, when the line matures they have some really good parts but jelling was mentioned and they have certainly not jelled yet.

This year they will have a new center and possibly a new RG if Rachal does not improve over last year. Doubt Harbaugh will be as supportive as Singletary.

The line was also built for running. Davis and Iupati are both big bruisers who have to learn pass blocking. Rachal is much the same. So, with an emphasis on pass blocking this TC we may see a huge leap in their over all performance. But we shouldn't expect miracles in one year. You don't need great players for jelling but you do need time!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Great thread! Thanks Bill.

Nolan Sr. drafted Fahnhorst in 1974 and Monte drafted Cross in 1976. Both were second round choices and both were pro bowlers with Walsh.

It is tiring to hear that we have invested high draft choices and thus our OLine should be great. Last year saw two rookies and a new starter at center. Rachal is also young and regressing. Staley was injured as was Heitmann. How does this look like the makings of a good line? Yes, when the line matures they have some really good parts but jelling was mentioned and they have certainly not jelled yet.

This year they will have a new center and possibly a new RG if Rachal does not improve over last year. Doubt Harbaugh will be as supportive as Singletary.

The line was also built for running. Davis and Iupati are both big bruisers who have to learn pass blocking. Rachal is much the same. So, with an emphasis on pass blocking this TC we may see a huge leap in their over all performance. But we shouldn't expect miracles in one year. You don't need great players for jelling but you do need time!

Just remember that Harbaugh and Roman like to run the ball. ALOT. See Gerhart, Toby.

They just do it out of many more formations and don't make it so predictable.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Just remember that Harbaugh and Roman like to run the ball. ALOT. See Gerhart, Toby.

They just do it out of many more formations and don't make it so predictable.

Yes, but they may put more emphasis on pass blocking than last year. Running is fine but they need to develop equal skill in both blocking areas.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Great thread! Thanks Bill.

Nolan Sr. drafted Fahnhorst in 1974 and Monte drafted Cross in 1976. Both were second round choices and both were pro bowlers with Walsh.

It is tiring to hear that we have invested high draft choices and thus our OLine should be great. Last year saw two rookies and a new starter at center. Rachal is also young and regressing. Staley was injured as was Heitmann. How does this look like the makings of a good line? Yes, when the line matures they have some really good parts but jelling was mentioned and they have certainly not jelled yet.

This year they will have a new center and possibly a new RG if Rachal does not improve over last year. Doubt Harbaugh will be as supportive as Singletary.

The line was also built for running. Davis and Iupati are both big bruisers who have to learn pass blocking. Rachal is much the same. So, with an emphasis on pass blocking this TC we may see a huge leap in their over all performance. But we shouldn't expect miracles in one year. You don't need great players for jelling but you do need time!

Just remember that Harbaugh and Roman like to run the ball. ALOT. See Gerhart, Toby.

They just do it out of many more formations and don't make it so predictable.

But at the same time, this isn't college. The NFL is a passing league and teams don't win if they can't pass. I'm sure JH will adjust.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Just remember that Harbaugh and Roman like to run the ball. ALOT. See Gerhart, Toby.

They just do it out of many more formations and don't make it so predictable.

Yes, but they may put more emphasis on pass blocking than last year. Running is fine but they need to develop equal skill in both blocking areas.

Agreed. I just worry that peeps in this place are gonna freakin blow a gasket when they realize that Harbaugh isn't a "throw the ball on every down" coach. He likes to run the ball just like SIngletary did. The difference is that he knows what he's doing, knows how to scheme it, knows how to pass off of it, and all around has a clue.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
That comment is 100% accurate whether you take it as past tense or present tense. There are more productive and less experienced QBs winning more games than Alex Smith on teams with less talent at OL, and offense in general in the NFL. You think that Ryan Fitzpatrick has a better team around him than Alex Smith?

Ryan Fitzpatrick 4-11 3000 yards 23 tds

Alex Smith 3-9 2370 yards 14 tds

The Bills have far worse talent on offense than the 49ers both at the line and at the skill positions

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Bills didn't have Singletary.

I get your point. I'm not saying that Alex is a great QB, but he's not as bad as peeps make him out to be. He's had the deck stacked against him since the beginning. If you wanted to write an instruction manual on how to make a QB fail it would only read "See Alex Smith".

Maybe he will never amount to anything and wouldn't have even in the best of conditions, but I don't think there is any way of knowing that given the trainwreck he's been subjected to.

Mike Singletary was a horrible coach, but lets not pretend that Alex Smith didn't have some decent coaches too. Mike Martz Mike McCarthy and Norv Turner are all highly respected coaches who were not able to get much out of him. Norv Turners stint was hardly a success with just over 2000 yards and 16 touchdowns.

Alex Smith is not as bad as most 49er fans think he is, but players who have legitimate talent usually shine through even in tough situations. And by shine through I don't mean a monster season, I am talking about a 300 yard 3 touchdown victory against a decent team. Smith has never put together a performance like that even when the team was clicking

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Great thread! Thanks Bill.

Nolan Sr. drafted Fahnhorst in 1974 and Monte drafted Cross in 1976. Both were second round choices and both were pro bowlers with Walsh.

It is tiring to hear that we have invested high draft choices and thus our OLine should be great. Last year saw two rookies and a new starter at center. Rachal is also young and regressing. Staley was injured as was Heitmann. How does this look like the makings of a good line? Yes, when the line matures they have some really good parts but jelling was mentioned and they have certainly not jelled yet.

This year they will have a new center and possibly a new RG if Rachal does not improve over last year. Doubt Harbaugh will be as supportive as Singletary.

The line was also built for running. Davis and Iupati are both big bruisers who have to learn pass blocking. Rachal is much the same. So, with an emphasis on pass blocking this TC we may see a huge leap in their over all performance. But we shouldn't expect miracles in one year. You don't need great players for jelling but you do need time!

Just remember that Harbaugh and Roman like to run the ball. ALOT. See Gerhart, Toby.

They just do it out of many more formations and don't make it so predictable.

But at the same time, this isn't college. The NFL is a passing league and teams don't win if they can't pass. I'm sure JH will adjust.

I agree...just read my post above. There are going to be peeps in the zone who are gonna freak out when they see Gore running the ball. ALOT.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Overkill:
Line play is important. But MOST important? I don't know about that. The relationship between an OL & its QB is symbiotic. Each can make the other better or worse.

Indy, Chicago, Philadelphia, Arizona, and Cincinnati (off the top of my head) have all made significant playoff runs in recent memory with question marks on the OL. Green Bay won the SB with an OL that wasn't exactly top notch.

By the time the playoffs began, GB's OL was back intact, and so was the timing of the passing game.

But you are correct, a team can win it all with a question in the OL but not 5 of them. At the beginning of last year, the 49er OL was a complete train wreck. Iupati and Davis were brand new, Baas was a total fish out of water (though he showed surprising improvement in the second half of the year), Staley was hurt, Rachal was, well, Rachal. There was not solid play from anyone on the OL in the first half of last season.

Back in history, the first 49er SB win was with an under-sized guard named Dan Audick playing LT. He was barely adequate in addition to having some emotional issues. Walsh showed his genius by running plays that took advantage of his limited talent while avoiding his liabilities. He could do that because he had studs at the other spots.

Green Bay's struggles at OL weren't simply a product of injuries or limited to a single position. They had shaky play all across the line for most of the season (with the exception of Clifton) and still had huge questions in the playoffs. Bulaga struggled with speed rushers throughout the year, and got owned by Lamar Woodley in the SB (at least 5 pressures). The LG (forgot his name) was the only capable run blocker but also did his best traffic cone impression on passing plays. The RG & C were average (at best) when pass blocking and never got any push when run blocking. This wasn't a line anchored by studs that overcame a few weak spots. And the Green Bay passing attack was effective long before the playoffs. Swap GB's OL for ours and I'm not sure you'd see much of a record change for either team.

The Pittsburgh-AZ SB featured lines with multiple holes on each side, too.

I know this topic comes close to one that makes a lot of zoners lose all rationality, but the truth is that OL & QB affect each other. Any argument about which affects the other more strikes me as a matter of opinion, but in the overall scheme of things, I'd say its obvious QB play is more important than OL play.

Been saying all year that my # 1 concern is the OL. I am on the fence for whether we truly have the right guys in place, or whether crap predictable scheme made these guys so inept. (or the right % of blame for each side)

All starts up front, as Memphis stated. We have sucked at pass protection since 2006, and even then were far from good. Gore does a good job running behind generally awful blocking, but can only do so much.

It's dumb to single out one aspect as our sink or swim for the season... but if forced to? It's coming down to the OL for me. We dump the predictability.... which leads to better OL success? and it's bound to lead to offensive success for everything involved.

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:
yep i agree, why do you think we fired our hc? was steve young a bad qb or was tampa bay just a horribly ran franchise making it impossible for him to succeed there? hindsight shows the latter.

The bucs were horrible but were are now comparing Steve Young to Alex Smith, I can't take any part in that comparison.