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Isaac Sopoaga

Well, Kolo, it's a a compliment that you went back and read, or maybe remembered my previous comments...and i pretty much remember yours(especially since, as you noted, this argument is a rehash of those had before). As for a 6 man line, no, unless in 3rd and real short, i haven't seen one before(unless on goal line). But i will tell you this: i sure wondered why not when we, time after time, game after game, couldn't get a passrush on the qB. Just out of curiousity, do you recall ANYTIME in recent 7 yrs we have done that and sustained it? I sure don't.

As for run D, as you well know, K, having a good run D and NO pass D(due to total failure to produce passrush in last 7 yrs)...well, it doesn't make for a good overall D, and nobody is disputing that. What good is a pass D when nobody can get a push on the passer? And that has been us, noln, erickson, Yorks, combined 6-7 yrs.

Yes, we probably will play a 3-4(sometime, maybe all the time), and maybe, due to lack of talent, or perhaps lack of coaching , or maybe crappy drafting and FAing, or most likely all 3, we won't be very good at it. When we can't get a push on the QB, maybe we should be in a 4, or 5 man DL. Who knows, maybe even a 6 man. All i am saying is that a middle of the road run D is fine, but if the other team can literally pass on us at will, and they do, why NOT try a 6 man DL? Sure it sounds weird, but haven't you ever seen us on 3rd and whatever, know a pass is coming, and just as surely, know we won't get passrush on the QB?

And like it or not, the DL HAS to be part of that. For seven yrs it hasn't. So maybe we do need to do something unconventional like play 6 man DL. What could it hurt? What we are doing now doesn't work, and just stopping the run (in the middle of the pack) isn't going to get it in the nfl. Add to that our inferior talent along the DL(or as i said, maybe it is the incredibly poor coaching, or game calling)...and i believe it all contributes to our defensive ineptitude.

Finally, since i have not made an issue out of it in a long time, is the $ issue. Did you, or i, expect our bosses(unless you are self employed), ever expect to get mammoth payraises, BASED ON POTENTIAL? Certainly not in my case, nor in anyone else's i know. I know, i know, soap looks like one menacing, impressive sonof*gun. FRankly, he should scare people. But do you really think his tepid play since arrival was worth dropping another $20 or 24mil on the guy? Man, i sure don't . Nor do i think that is sound football practice on ANYBODY, not just soap, yet that's what our mgmt did.

My comment on that move was "harebrained", but deserving... it was not. Soap is paid on-the-come, not on performance, and frankly, that bothers the heck out of me, especially on a team this bad for 7 long, painful yrs. At what point, K, do we say, "Ah jeez, soap was a mistake?" Are you ready for him to continue to develop, but not be a factor on D? And if so, for how long? That is my issue. We keep waiting, but all i see is the same thing. Surely, somebody upstairs has to be cognizant of that.

Kolo, as i see this team now--- turn back the clock--- and i just see us where we were 7 yrs ago, w/r/to performance...ie, i don't see us much better now than we were then. And for 7 yrs, that is a disgrace---put the blame where you like. Is soap part of that...a poor choice, that we are going to keep riding until he retires? Just out of curiousity, how long do you give a guy like that before saying "Enough"?

If that is ranting and raving, then i confess...GUILTY as charged. But everything written above is just a compilation of game tapes on "how not to do it" . Every time i go thru them i feel worse...like somebody, maybe a lot of somebodies, has let us down. Soap just happens to be one of them.

You've heard this before, but looking at our biggest goof in last 7 yrs came this past yr, and that was not going full out to sign Pioli. We're shy on talent, poor on choosing talent, lousy at coordination with a reachable set of goals in the future, have been creamed by lousy coaching...it is a laundry list of WHY we needed and still need a Pioli, or HOFO in charge. Until we get one i can only see dibs and dabs at improvement, but no real focused plan for improvement. Watch KC...they will turn around in one yr, just like parcells did in miami. Us, heck, we're just screwed to more of the same.

A true fan, or any fan for that matter deserves better. So do the players we sign, and the coaches we get. A HOFO is the guy that puts that all in order, or focuses the team as it were. With a guy like that aboard, i don't believe a soap, or whoever, would last that long...nor should he. There comes a point where you have to produce. And everything i have seen re: soap says that he hasn't. But in all fairness, he has plenty of company, and that is the disgrace holding us back. We need direction and have none. Until that happens, getting a HOFO, there is no reason to expect us to be any different this yr than last 7 yrs, and sadly, that wasn't very interesting... nor was it much fun.

Hey, K, that said, i hope soap knocks 'em dead this yr, which is the same i hope for every yr. But do i really expect it? No.
[ Edited by pasodoc9er on Mar 12, 2009 at 7:09 AM ]
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Well, Kolo, it's a a compliment that you went back and read, or maybe remembered my previous comments...and i pretty much remember yours(especially since, as you noted, this argument is a rehash of those had before). As for a 6 man line, no, unless in 3rd and real short, i haven't seen one before(unless on goal line). But i will tell you this: i sure wondered why not when we, time after time, game after game, couldn't get a passrush on the qB. Just out of curiousity, do you recall ANYTIME in recent 7 yrs we have done that and sustained it? I sure don't.

Well if you looked at the second half of the year when Singletary took over you would see the difference in pass-rush, you would also see the difference in run-stopping. Did you ever go back and look at what side of the DL Pary's Haralson managed to get most of his sacks??

Quote:
As for run D, as you well know, K, having a good run D and NO pass D(due to total failure to produce passrush in last 7 yrs)...well, it doesn't make for a good overall D, and nobody is disputing that. What good is a pass D when nobody can get a push on the passer? And that has been us, noln, erickson, Yorks, combined 6-7 yrs.

Seeing that you said this in your first paragraph, you can also see above in my first reply. Which also brings me back to why I said you rant on total frustration. But isn't this a thread on Sopoaga, and isn't Sopoaga's main priority as a D-linman in a 3-4 defense to stop the run??
Quote:

Yes, we probably will play a 3-4(sometime, maybe all the time), and maybe, due to lack of talent, or perhaps lack of coaching , or maybe crappy drafting and FAing, or most likely all 3, we won't be very good at it. When we can't get a push on the QB, maybe we should be in a 4, or 5 man DL. Who knows, maybe even a 6 man. All i am saying is that a middle of the road run D is fine, but if the other team can literally pass on us at will, and they do, why NOT try a 6 man DL? Sure it sounds weird, but haven't you ever seen us on 3rd and whatever, know a pass is coming, and just as surely, know we won't get passrush on the QB?

(nods head) A 6 man DL, I thought this was sarcasm from your first paragraph. But are you serious, for one, we have no dominate FS to pull that off, two, any team that lines up 4 wide would eat us alive....I won't go any further on this.
Quote:

And like it or not, the DL HAS to be part of that. For seven yrs it hasn't. So maybe we do need to do something unconventional like play 6 man DL. What could it hurt? What we are doing now doesn't work, and just stopping the run (in the middle of the pack) isn't going to get it in the nfl. Add to that our inferior talent along the DL(or as i said, maybe it is the incredibly poor coaching, or game calling)...and i believe it all contributes to our defensive ineptitude.

OK, don't know if you know this but, as a defense your main objective SHOULD be to stop the run first. If you can't do that, the QB would be comfortable all day long with no stress on having to win the game with the team on his back. And if you can't stop the run, than teams also like to win by what they call time-of-possession.

Quote:

Finally, since i have not made an issue out of it in a long time, is the $ issue. Did you, or i, expect our bosses(unless you are self employed), ever expect to get mammoth payraises, BASED ON POTENTIAL? Certainly not in my case, nor in anyone else's i know. I know, i know, soap looks like one menacing, impressive sonof*gun. FRankly, he should scare people. But do you really think his tepid play since arrival was worth dropping another $20 or 24mil on the guy? Man, i sure don't . Nor do i think that is sound football practice on ANYBODY, not just soap, yet that's what our mgmt did.

Again, maybe you should go back and REALLY understand what his contract looks like, then you might not think it looks so MAMMOTH. Seriously people. do you guys even know his contract, 20 mil for 5 years (not all is guaranteed) is pretty average. Chris Canty hadly did that much better than Sopoaga's first year starting and he got BANK.

Quote:

My comment on that move was "harebrained", but deserving... it was not. Soap is paid on-the-come, not on performance, and frankly, that bothers the heck out of me, especially on a team this bad for 7 long, painful yrs. At what point, K, do we say, "Ah jeez, soap was a mistake?" Are you ready for him to continue to develop, but not be a factor on D? And if so, for how long? That is my issue. We keep waiting, but all i see is the same thing. Surely, somebody upstairs has to be cognizant of that.

You need to do a little research, our defense has only ranked 32nd once in 2005, other than that we been a middle of the pack defense, ranked in the teens and 20's, but not as bad as you make them to be.
Quote:

Kolo, as i see this team now--- turn back the clock--- and i just see us where we were 7 yrs ago, w/r/to performance...ie, i don't see us much better now than we were then. And for 7 yrs, that is a disgrace---put the blame where you like. Is soap part of that...a poor choice, that we are going to keep riding until he retires? Just out of curiousity, how long do you give a guy like that before saying "Enough"?

Maybe you should go back and look at the film of the second half, and you will see that Sopoaga is HARDLY the problem on defense.

Quote:
If that is ranting and raving, then i confess...GUILTY as charged. But everything written above is just a compilation of game tapes on "how not to do it" . Every time i go thru them i feel worse...like somebody, maybe a lot of somebodies, has let us down. Soap just happens to be one of them.

Yes it was ranting and raving, and most had little to do with Sopoaga and a lot of it was repetitive.
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by dmbgeek87:
If Scot McCloughan had any hair on his balls, he would CUT Isaac Sopoaga immediately and target Mike Wright in free agency.

Wright will be the next legit 3-4 star in this league. Count on it.

ANd if you had any game tape, you should go back and look at it IMMEDIATELY and see Sopoaga was solid in SIngletary's 3-4.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
ANd if you had any game tape, you should go back and look at it IMMEDIATELY and see Sopoaga was solid in SIngletary's 3-4.

Thank you. Some of these posts make me think I was watching different games last year because, I swear, it seemed to me that Sopoaga was standing up double teams very often.
  • Envy
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Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
ANd if you had any game tape, you should go back and look at it IMMEDIATELY and see Sopoaga was solid in SIngletary's 3-4.

Thank you. Some of these posts make me think I was watching different games last year because, I swear, it seemed to me that Sopoaga was standing up double teams very often.

So does pretty much every 3-4 DE. This is not news to anyone. Warren, Castillo etc all get double teamed but yet still make plays. People are always quick to say that Soap was injured or Soap was behind Young. Fine then please enlighten me as to why we have singed a fairly decent wedge of our cap to player who couldn't get on the field? This is absurd.

I would love nothing more than Soap to turn out to be a monster NT and get 5 sacks next year. I really would. He would then justify his wage. Right now though solid is not good enough for what he earns.
Originally posted by Mike8016:
He is moving back to DT. http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=SF

because hes a bumb! LMAO He wont be with us long.
Originally posted by ezrider:
He sure is -- he's the strongest man on the team and perhaps even the league. He's one of 3 guys on the team who carry 200 lb. dumbbells in each hand. Nice post.

There's a difference between weightroom strength and actually being able to apply it out on the field. They don't pay him to pump 200 lb. dumbells. They pay him to not get knocked on his fatass more than a guy as supposedly strong as him has any right to. Lotta good all that weight works done for him.
Originally posted by Envy:
Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
ANd if you had any game tape, you should go back and look at it IMMEDIATELY and see Sopoaga was solid in SIngletary's 3-4.

Thank you. Some of these posts make me think I was watching different games last year because, I swear, it seemed to me that Sopoaga was standing up double teams very often.

So does pretty much every 3-4 DE. This is not news to anyone. Warren, Castillo etc all get double teamed but yet still make plays.

Do they play in a 3-4? I thought Warren Sapp was a 4-3 guy. 4-3 tackles are supposed to get sacks - not 3-4 tackles. If Warren and Castillo got their sacks in a 3-4, you have a good point.
  • Envy
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Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Originally posted by Envy:
Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
ANd if you had any game tape, you should go back and look at it IMMEDIATELY and see Sopoaga was solid in SIngletary's 3-4.

Thank you. Some of these posts make me think I was watching different games last year because, I swear, it seemed to me that Sopoaga was standing up double teams very often.

So does pretty much every 3-4 DE. This is not news to anyone. Warren, Castillo etc all get double teamed but yet still make plays.

Do they play in a 3-4? I thought Warren Sapp was a 4-3 guy. 4-3 tackles are supposed to get sacks - not 3-4 tackles. If Warren and Castillo got their sacks in a 3-4, you have a good point.

Ty Warren mate. Ty Warren.
  • DVDA
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Originally posted by Envy:
Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
ANd if you had any game tape, you should go back and look at it IMMEDIATELY and see Sopoaga was solid in SIngletary's 3-4.

Thank you. Some of these posts make me think I was watching different games last year because, I swear, it seemed to me that Sopoaga was standing up double teams very often.

So does pretty much every 3-4 DE. This is not news to anyone. Warren, Castillo etc all get double teamed but yet still make plays. People are always quick to say that Soap was injured or Soap was behind Young. Fine then please enlighten me as to why we have singed a fairly decent wedge of our cap to player who couldn't get on the field? This is absurd.

I would love nothing more than Soap to turn out to be a monster NT and get 5 sacks next year. I really would. He would then justify his wage. Right now though solid is not good enough for what he earns.

4 million is HUGE!!! That is less than 4% of the salary cap. IMO, we are lucky Soap signed for so little looking at how the DT position is skyrocketing in salary. Tommy Kelly signed for 2.5 times what Soap resigned for: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3269154
Corey Redding did the same thing: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2938519
Originally posted by Envy:
Ty Warren mate. Ty Warren.

OK, sorry. Right. The 1st rounder who gets paid a LOT more than Sopoaga. Last year, I believe they had almost exactly the same stats. 41 tackles and 1 sack a piece. But we got our 41 tackles and 1 sack for a lot less money. Plus, I don't think the Patriots run a 3-4 all the time whereas Singletary has shown that he sticks with it. I like Sopoaga. He even weighs 30 pounds more than Ty Warren.
Originally posted by SanFranAddic:
Originally posted by Envy:
Originally posted by Socal49erFan:
It is hard to determine 3/4 defensive lineman's contribution to the team by his individual stats. Compare the position to offensive line where your job is to create lanes for your running back/linebackers. I like Soap. I believe he is exactly what we need on our team and I see him being one of the dominant D-lineman in the league in 2009. Why? Madden that is why! j/k.

Soap (career NT except 08) vs Hampton (Steelers NT)

Games Started = 23 vs 106
Sacks = 4 vs 5.5
Passes Defensed = 6 vs 3
Games missed to injury = 1 in four seasons vs 15 in eight seasons
Most tackles in a season = 41 vs 42

In 08 Soap had 3 Stuffs on the RB and Hampton had 0.

It should also be noted that Soap only started 8 games prior to the 2008 season. Soap didnt start understanding his duties until the second half of the season when be became a starter. Even better Soap started playing football later on in life, as opposed to playing since pop warner like most players. He will come around.

The 49ers run defense tied for 8th in the league at 3.8 yards per carry average. Soap had something to do with that.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to pick holes in some of this. You base Soaps stats as a LDE against a NT and then go on to say it should not matter as he is supposed to stop the run. Well that's a half truth or spin as it goes. My counter to this would be below...



92 games
327 tackles
219 solo
19.5 sacks
8 defended passes
1 safety

Now Warren is elite there is no doubt about that and he is playing in one of the best teams to play the game but its still shows what can be achieved from the 3-4 LDE spot.

Soap might make it as NT but no-one around here can say he is producing the sort of game we would expect from a dominant lineman.


Just think about it..."What if" Donahozer drafted Warren instead of Rashaun "Bass Man" Woods. That was a miscalculation of epic proportions.
  • Envy
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Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Originally posted by Envy:
Ty Warren mate. Ty Warren.

OK, sorry. Right. The 1st rounder who gets paid a LOT more than Sopoaga. Last year, I believe they had almost exactly the same stats. 41 tackles and 1 sack a piece. But we got our 41 tackles and 1 sack for a lot less money. Plus, I don't think the Patriots run a 3-4 all the time whereas Singletary has shown that he sticks with it. I like Sopoaga. He even weighs 30 pounds more than Ty Warren.

Alright time to meet a 4th rounder





Last season Aaron Smith got..

60 Tackles (44 Solo) and 5.5 Sacks. He earns nearly $5m more than Soap. He though deserves it for his production.

http://www.nfl.com/players/aaronsmith/careerstats?id=SMI018560
Originally posted by 23zack80:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Originally posted by ezrider:
Quote:
Sopoaga cannot play the 3-4 Nose position...

and you can't write a post that makes sense. Sopoaga absolutely will be able to play the 3-4 NT position. He is faster off the ball than any of the other defensive lineman and stronger than almost anyone in the league. He was occupying a double team at DE much of the season and gets a good push on the offensive linemen. Plus, he plays with heart and goes all out on every play.

One thing most fans don't realize is that it often takes several years for defensive linemen (especially NT) to develop. It's one of the toughest positions to play and when you come in out of college, you're still a kid facing grown men with bad intentions who have been beating on kids like you for years. Take old Ted Washington. He was pretty much of a bust in the beginning and became very valuable as he got older. There is no substitute for experience and knowledge.

You didn't understand what I wrote?

My post is easily understood, I just didn't care to write a lengthy discussion about it. It has been a much discussed issue over the years and I don't care to repeat what has been already said.

If you don't want to put thought into your posts because you "don't care to repeat what has been already said", you should either A) post a link or B) quit being a post whore.

Or C) Post whatever I care to post and I could care less about how you think posting should work.

And my thought is real simple, Sopoaga has never played well as a 3-4 NT and theres no reason to expect him to start playing well. Theres a reason he moved to end, and a reason he will be splitting time rather then starting.

He tries to penetrate and slip by defenders rather then playing with leverage and controlling the gap.
[ Edited by SunDevilNiner79 on Mar 12, 2009 at 6:57 PM ]
okay, kolo, you see a bright light when you see soap, and i see a guy who is strong, athletic, but somehow just doesn't seem to grasp the "it" in being a NT or DE, or whatever his status will be this yr. 5yrs? And this is what we got? Yes, i admit to being spoiled, watching all the glory yrs games and getting to go to joe robbie against cincy, and against marino at stanford. But even without that, if a guy is starting, i just flat out expect more out of him than we get from soap(look, as i said, he has lots of company, so this isn't a witch hunt). You review tapes and see a guy you obviously like. i review them and see a guy who is going thru the motions, but in the end, not getting it done.

Rather than dispute each and every point i made that you challenged, i will leave it here. We simply see the same tape and end up "seeing" different things. The only thing i will counter with is, if soap is as good as you say, how come we STILL have no passrush? Maybe you see him out there as the only guy playing at a superior level, but if so, one of the two of us needs glasses. IF he were playing so superbly, i would expect our passrush and PassD to be just splendid, which it obviously isn't. I don't have a "mad on" for soap---he seems like a nice young man. But anchoring our line at DE or NT, or DL(where i think he really belongs), no way. Our passrush speaks for itself...just not very loudly. Okay, it's a whisper.

As i said, this wasn't only about soap. It is more about the guys who make up the futility we have to watch game after game, yr in and yr out. Cripes we have one of the best LBs to come along in a decade, and even with p-52 we can't stop the pass, because we have no passD, and that is due to NO passrush. If soap isn't part of that problem, then you are right...i am all wet. But i submit it has been yrs since a passrush, a real one, and soap, like it or not, is a part of that.

Again, i reiterate: nobody would love to see soap have an all pro yr more than I. Realistically, that seems to be a forlorn hope. So it is either coaching, which has been so far below par it is embarrassing, or it is in talent evaluation and selection, which has given us 9 starters on D, which all are excellent backups. Starters...and i include soap in this group....nah.