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Opinion on Manny Lawson

Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Apples:
Jesus, he's not a bust, he's one of our best defensive players! He's not a great pass rusher, but he's damn good in coverage!

GAH! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!

the thing though is...... in a 3-4 defense the main thing is to disguise where the 4 guy is coming from. if manny can't rush the passer then we're essentially going to send the same 4 guys. thus we might as well go 4-3 and get true pass rushing ends.

Its NOT just about what 4 guys are going to be rushing...BUT WHERE ARE THEY RUSHING FROM.

Charles Haley and Fred Dean where both pass-rushing OLBs in a 3-4 and they did OK. NEITHER had a dominant pass rushing OLB on the other side (in both cases it was usually Keena Turner).

[ Edited by Marvin49 on Feb 10, 2009 at 15:54:25 ]
  • ColdSoul
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Apples:
Jesus, he's not a bust, he's one of our best defensive players! He's not a great pass rusher, but he's damn good in coverage!

GAH! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!

the thing though is...... in a 3-4 defense the main thing is to disguise where the 4 guy is coming from. if manny can't rush the passer then we're essentially going to send the same 4 guys. thus we might as well go 4-3 and get true pass rushing ends.

Its NOT just about what 4 guys are going to be rushing...BUT WHERE ARE THEY RUSHING FROM.

Charles Haley and Fred Dean where both pass-rushing OLBs in a 3-4 and they did OK. NEITHER had a dominant pass rushing OLB on the other side (in both cases it was usually Keena Turner).

In Haley's prime most QB's when passing were taking at least 5 step drops, and a lot of 7 step drops. Today most good QB's will take 3/5 step drops and get rid of the ball just as the DE, or OLB coming from the outside is getting close. They might take a hit but in most cases this will tire out the DE, or OLB before the QB gets hurt. It is very tiring running and running trying to get past a huge OT with long arms who will either 1) push you back behind the QB 2) slow you down enough to let the QB get the ball of OR 3) occasionally give up a sack

This is why it's important to have a DE even in a 3-4 that can rush the QB because the OT must respect the outside rush which in the right scheme can open up a closer gap to the QB on the inside. For years I haven't seem much of this until we got Justin Smith who seems pretty good at opening a inside gap.

So I think it's a little short sighted to imply that Haley was able to do it so today you should be able to do it.

What we need is a DT/NT who can keep the middle of the OL tied up or at least close to the inside to allow the DE to make the OT open up a inside gap. This also presents a problem with the RB not being able to defend 2 gaps on one side of the field as easily as he can one outside gap.

But I don't know everything about football this is just something I have noticed over the years with teams that seems to get very close to sacks, but not get enough pressure to actually stop the pass.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,931
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Apples:
Jesus, he's not a bust, he's one of our best defensive players! He's not a great pass rusher, but he's damn good in coverage!

GAH! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!

the thing though is...... in a 3-4 defense the main thing is to disguise where the 4 guy is coming from. if manny can't rush the passer then we're essentially going to send the same 4 guys. thus we might as well go 4-3 and get true pass rushing ends.

Its NOT just about what 4 guys are going to be rushing...BUT WHERE ARE THEY RUSHING FROM.

Charles Haley and Fred Dean where both pass-rushing OLBs in a 3-4 and they did OK. NEITHER had a dominant pass rushing OLB on the other side (in both cases it was usually Keena Turner).

Manny is better in coverage and uses good technique to stop the run...Plus I love his wingspan for interceptions/blocked passes...Parys is a better pass rusher and has more beef and lower center of gravity...Once Manny gains more confidence in his knee he can be better than shown in pass rush...Manny making blocked punts on SP definitely helps his value too...
Originally posted by bigmike55:
Originally posted by Super5:
Originally posted by bigmike55:
I think Manny is a good player. He could be a great player in the right system. In the 49ers 3-4 defensenisve scheme, he doesn't have the body or prototypical size of either a DE or an OLB. He's too tall and lanky to play OLB. He gets driven backwards too often by offensive tackles and pulling guards. He's not heavy or strong enough to play DE in a 3-4 defense.

Can he make occassional plays, sure. Is he one of the more athletic guys on the team, sure. But I don't think he fits into our defense. Maybe as a backup, but not a starter that would make an impact.

M.Lawson stats in 08: Played in 14 games,started in 10- 45t/33s,3sks,3pd,1ff

The guy did pretty good in 08 considering he came back from a major knee injury and missed 14 games in 07,he also was not used properly while under Nolan.

The guy is just 24yrs old,has been with the Niners for only 3yrs,is full of potential,is not only athletic but also smart and very fast and yet you see him as a
backup??

I'm sorry but you're giving a poor evaluation to a very talented,upcoming player.

Alot zoners expect instant Probowl caliber players like Patrick Willis and if they're not they call them nothing more than backups or busts and that is just not reality.

Manny Lawsons' best is yet to come.

I'm not saying the guy sucks. I'm saying he's pretty good, but look around the league at some of the elite OLBs. James Harrison, Demarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman.

All of these guys are big, tough, gritty, hard hitting guys. Low center of gravities, fast off the edge, and can hit. I know the job of an OLB is to stop the run and cover, but stopping the run is the first priority. That is not one of Manny Lawson's strengths. He was a DE in college, he has the speed to rush the QB and now drop back into coverage occassionally. But stopping the run is the first priority of any linebacker, especially under Mike Singletary.

(Elite LB's-don't forget our own Patrick Willis!)


James Harrison wasn't born elite,he went from a non starter and being cut 3 times(twice by the Steelers) to becoming Defensive player of the year this past season which goes to show you some players take time to develop,another example is Mario Williams.

What I'm saying is I think you're judging Manny prematurely and too harsh(backup).

Although Manny hasn't reached full potential,the way he is playing now he would remain a starter on my team,not a backup.

But hey,to each his own.
Originally posted by ColdSoul:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Apples:
Jesus, he's not a bust, he's one of our best defensive players! He's not a great pass rusher, but he's damn good in coverage!

GAH! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!

the thing though is...... in a 3-4 defense the main thing is to disguise where the 4 guy is coming from. if manny can't rush the passer then we're essentially going to send the same 4 guys. thus we might as well go 4-3 and get true pass rushing ends.

Its NOT just about what 4 guys are going to be rushing...BUT WHERE ARE THEY RUSHING FROM.

Charles Haley and Fred Dean where both pass-rushing OLBs in a 3-4 and they did OK. NEITHER had a dominant pass rushing OLB on the other side (in both cases it was usually Keena Turner).

In Haley's prime most QB's when passing were taking at least 5 step drops, and a lot of 7 step drops. Today most good QB's will take 3/5 step drops and get rid of the ball just as the DE, or OLB coming from the outside is getting close. They might take a hit but in most cases this will tire out the DE, or OLB before the QB gets hurt. It is very tiring running and running trying to get past a huge OT with long arms who will either 1) push you back behind the QB 2) slow you down enough to let the QB get the ball of OR 3) occasionally give up a sack

This is why it's important to have a DE even in a 3-4 that can rush the QB because the OT must respect the outside rush which in the right scheme can open up a closer gap to the QB on the inside. For years I haven't seem much of this until we got Justin Smith who seems pretty good at opening a inside gap.

So I think it's a little short sighted to imply that Haley was able to do it so today you should be able to do it.

What we need is a DT/NT who can keep the middle of the OL tied up or at least close to the inside to allow the DE to make the OT open up a inside gap. This also presents a problem with the RB not being able to defend 2 gaps on one side of the field as easily as he can one outside gap.

But I don't know everything about football this is just something I have noticed over the years with teams that seems to get very close to sacks, but not get enough pressure to actually stop the pass.

My point wasn't that we only need one pass-rusher...it was that the second pass-rusher doesn't NEED to be the other OLB. Its OK to have an OLB who is great in coverage.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Apples:
Jesus, he's not a bust, he's one of our best defensive players! He's not a great pass rusher, but he's damn good in coverage!

GAH! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!

the thing though is...... in a 3-4 defense the main thing is to disguise where the 4 guy is coming from. if manny can't rush the passer then we're essentially going to send the same 4 guys. thus we might as well go 4-3 and get true pass rushing ends.

Its NOT just about what 4 guys are going to be rushing...BUT WHERE ARE THEY RUSHING FROM.

Charles Haley and Fred Dean where both pass-rushing OLBs in a 3-4 and they did OK. NEITHER had a dominant pass rushing OLB on the other side (in both cases it was usually Keena Turner).


Confused? lol.

I'm just saying it has worked in the past when one of the OLB in a 3-4 D isn't a pure pass-rusher.
I have. He is failing in the area we drafted the dude for. He's a decent LB but that's it - so far.
Originally posted by Obepawn:
I have. He is failing in the area we drafted the dude for. He's a decent LB but that's it - so far.

He was a late first rounder so Im not sure why everyone was expecting him to post 10 sacks as a rook. He tore his ACL in year two after looking very impressive for his first couple of games. He was not physically 100% last year and still played decent most of the time and had some impact plays so I would say hes about where we should all expect him to be right now
He's probably my 2nd favorite player.
Originally posted by dhp318:
He's probably my 2nd favorite player.

He is my favorite!





I think Manny is pretty damn good in coverage and run support when he has seen the field under Singletary. His pass coverage is a plus in a a pass happy division. I will be very curious to see how Manny does this season more removed from his knee injury and with the help of Al Harris the pass rush specialist that Singletary just brought aboard. If Manny can stay healthy I think that he will see more playing time this season under Singletary and Manusky and we will see some improvement in his rushing the QB this year. I agree he hasn't lived up to the expectations as a rusher considering where we drafted him but I think that he will have a better year in 2009.
I have to agree that Manny hasn't lived up to our pass rushing expectations but he has done well in coverage and run support when he has made it out onto the field. I see Manny getting more playing time in 2009 under Singletary and showing more improvement.

[ Edited by 49ERGUY on Feb 19, 2009 at 04:10:31 ]
Originally posted by Apples:
Jesus, he's not a bust, he's one of our best defensive players! He's not a great pass rusher, but he's damn good in coverage!

GAH! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!
According to Matt Maiocco's blog today:

Quote:
3:15 p.m.: Mike Singletary said a couple days after the season that he was looking for upgrades at safety and pass-rusher. Perhaps, he meant those replacements were already on the roster. Dashon Goldson is expected to replace Mark Roman at free safety, and Singletary has dropped hints that he believes Manny Lawson can become a third-down pass rusher. Unless the 49ers find some answers in the draft, Goldson and Lawson are the most likely solutions.



3:30 p.m.: Proven, big-time pass rushers generally are not available in free agency. The 49ers have shown some interest in Jason Taylor, but so have a lot of other teams. The 49ers are trying to build the roster, so I don't see them giving up draft picks to try to pry franchise player Julius Peppers away from the Panthers. Lawson was the first linebacker off the field this past season on passing downs. But, remember, he did come to the 49ers after a successful college career built around getting to the quarterback. Singletary mentioned he has confidence Lawson can rush the passer. Lawson has not shown that ability in the NFL. But, also, he hasn't been given much of a chance to show that aspect of his game.

Lawson will only get better as a player as he gets more playing time. He should be back at full strength and ability heading into the 2009 season. I think he will have a great year!