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Brady wins Comeback player of the year

Originally posted by Niners99:
i think people miss the point of "comeback player of the year"

brady tearing his knee up, then recovering and playing well again isnt really a "comeback", because if he didnt play this year and do what he did, it would be considered a major career changing injury.

comeback is for guys who were somebody good before, spend at least 2+ seasons imo down and out, and then had to rise back up and become their old self. brady never lost it and had to regain it. he was just forced to take a year off.

if its injury related setbacks that halt your elite player, it should be for at least 2 seasons before you can be considered a "comeback" player.

  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 27,055
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
This has nothing to do with homerism (I'm a ND fan not a Horns fan). Tom Brady was an all pro pre-injury, VY was considered a bust coming into this season. Brady had Moss and Welker, VY had Gage, Washington & Britt. Someone mentioned self inflicted wounds, this has nothing to do with that and everything to do with a guy who was labeled a bust and no one on this site wanted us to trade for him.

VY went 8-2 coming off the bench, Brady in that same time frame went 5-4.

Frank Gore, Braylon Edwards, Ronnie Brown, Edgerrin James are just a few players who have come back from ACL tears to have great seasons and or continue to post great numbers.

Also 3 of Brady's lineman made the 2007 all pro team (one 1st teamer two 2nd teamers)

Who labeled Vince Young a bust? Jeff Fisher? Bud Adams? You?

It seems to me that Vince Young was benched due to poor play. Calling a 25 year old former third overall pick a bust seems premature. Also, since when did irrelevant labels become precursors to winning awards?

The Titans began winning not because Vince Young played outstanding, but because Chris Johnson started getting 20+ touches a game. When the Titans' season was hanging in the balance on National Television against the Chargers at home, Young choked.

I'd also argue that both Ronnie Brown and Braylon Edwards haven't been the same since their injuries (neither have amassed 1,000 receiving / rushing since).

I get all of the hate on this board when it comes to Brady. His historical output is a threat to the old guard 49ers. I guess I'm just amazed that fans can't put away their homerism for reasonable debate.

How about just about everywhere you turned people were calling VY a bust and it was looking like he was on his way out of Tennessee.

Chris Johnson had 596 yards though the first 6 games, and better run blocking and the ability to pass the ball made the offense better along with VY's play. He was making good decisions with the football and not trying to force things.

I also like how you blame VY for the Chargers loss but credit CJ for them winning 8 games. Football is a team sport and it all starts with the leader of the team which VY was during their turnaround. He had that bad game yes but he also had some brilliant performances during that stretch like vs Arizona. He also led them to beat Miami and Houston during that stretch, 2 teams who Brady couldn't lead his team past.

I never discredited Brady but he plays with the stronger supporting cast and wasn;t on a team that had lost their first 6 games, and like I said Brady is a future HOF'er so please stop with the homerism talk.

Ronnie Brown never got more than 214 carries since then but came close to 1000 yards and showed he has a nose for the endzone. Edwards had 80 catches for 1200+ yards and 16 TD's post injury.
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
This has nothing to do with homerism (I'm a ND fan not a Horns fan). Tom Brady was an all pro pre-injury, VY was considered a bust coming into this season. Brady had Moss and Welker, VY had Gage, Washington & Britt. Someone mentioned self inflicted wounds, this has nothing to do with that and everything to do with a guy who was labeled a bust and no one on this site wanted us to trade for him.

VY went 8-2 coming off the bench, Brady in that same time frame went 5-4.

Frank Gore, Braylon Edwards, Ronnie Brown, Edgerrin James are just a few players who have come back from ACL tears to have great seasons and or continue to post great numbers.

Also 3 of Brady's lineman made the 2007 all pro team (one 1st teamer two 2nd teamers)

Who labeled Vince Young a bust? Jeff Fisher? Bud Adams? You?

It seems to me that Vince Young was benched due to poor play. Calling a 25 year old former third overall pick a bust seems premature. Also, since when did irrelevant labels become precursors to winning awards?

The Titans began winning not because Vince Young played outstanding, but because Chris Johnson started getting 20+ touches a game. When the Titans' season was hanging in the balance on National Television against the Chargers at home, Young choked.

I'd also argue that both Ronnie Brown and Braylon Edwards haven't been the same since their injuries (neither have amassed 1,000 receiving / rushing since).

I get all of the hate on this board when it comes to Brady. His historical output is a threat to the old guard 49ers. I guess I'm just amazed that fans can't put away their homerism for reasonable debate.

How about just about everywhere you turned people were calling VY a bust and it was looking like he was on his way out of Tennessee.

Chris Johnson had 596 yards though the first 6 games, and better run blocking and the ability to pass the ball made the offense better along with VY's play. He was making good decisions with the football and not trying to force things.

I also like how you blame VY for the Chargers loss but credit CJ for them winning 8 games. Football is a team sport and it all starts with the leader of the team which VY was during their turnaround. He had that bad game yes but he also had some brilliant performances during that stretch like vs Arizona. He also led them to beat Miami and Houston during that stretch, 2 teams who Brady couldn't lead his team past.

I never discredited Brady but he plays with the stronger supporting cast and wasn;t on a team that had lost their first 6 games, and like I said Brady is a future HOF'er so please stop with the homerism talk.

Ronnie Brown never got more than 214 carries since then but came close to 1000 yards and showed he has a nose for the endzone. Edwards had 80 catches for 1200+ yards and 16 TD's post injury.

Don't I recall Vince Young having an amazing statistical game AND a game winning drive? I agree with you, KRS.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
This has nothing to do with homerism (I'm a ND fan not a Horns fan). Tom Brady was an all pro pre-injury, VY was considered a bust coming into this season. Brady had Moss and Welker, VY had Gage, Washington & Britt. Someone mentioned self inflicted wounds, this has nothing to do with that and everything to do with a guy who was labeled a bust and no one on this site wanted us to trade for him.

VY went 8-2 coming off the bench, Brady in that same time frame went 5-4.

Frank Gore, Braylon Edwards, Ronnie Brown, Edgerrin James are just a few players who have come back from ACL tears to have great seasons and or continue to post great numbers.

Also 3 of Brady's lineman made the 2007 all pro team (one 1st teamer two 2nd teamers)

Who labeled Vince Young a bust? Jeff Fisher? Bud Adams? You?

It seems to me that Vince Young was benched due to poor play. Calling a 25 year old former third overall pick a bust seems premature. Also, since when did irrelevant labels become precursors to winning awards?

The Titans began winning not because Vince Young played outstanding, but because Chris Johnson started getting 20+ touches a game. When the Titans' season was hanging in the balance on National Television against the Chargers at home, Young choked.

I'd also argue that both Ronnie Brown and Braylon Edwards haven't been the same since their injuries (neither have amassed 1,000 receiving / rushing since).

I get all of the hate on this board when it comes to Brady. His historical output is a threat to the old guard 49ers. I guess I'm just amazed that fans can't put away their homerism for reasonable debate.

How about just about everywhere you turned people were calling VY a bust and it was looking like he was on his way out of Tennessee.

Chris Johnson had 596 yards though the first 6 games, and better run blocking and the ability to pass the ball made the offense better along with VY's play. He was making good decisions with the football and not trying to force things.

I also like how you blame VY for the Chargers loss but credit CJ for them winning 8 games. Football is a team sport and it all starts with the leader of the team which VY was during their turnaround. He had that bad game yes but he also had some brilliant performances during that stretch like vs Arizona. He also led them to beat Miami and Houston during that stretch, 2 teams who Brady couldn't lead his team past.

I never discredited Brady but he plays with the stronger supporting cast and wasn;t on a team that had lost their first 6 games, and like I said Brady is a future HOF'er so please stop with the homerism talk.

Ronnie Brown never got more than 214 carries since then but came close to 1000 yards and showed he has a nose for the endzone. Edwards had 80 catches for 1200+ yards and 16 TD's post injury.

Don't I recall Vince Young having an amazing statistical game AND a game winning drive? I agree with you, KRS.

Vince Young had a great game winning drive where he actually had to throw a touchdown pass to win a game instead of pawning it off on his kicker. Sorry, but Brady is already a future hall-of famer. This is almost as ridiculous as when Dan Marino won it in 1994 under pretty much the same circumstances.
Did anybody else think otherwise? Come on! The NFL loves this guy! I mean, they create new rules for him and he calls his own penalties! Willis McGahee or Cadillac should have won.

[ Edited by WheresWaldo on Jan 6, 2010 at 16:30:18 ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
This isn't the 70's where an MCL tear ends your career. I said MOST players come back to where they were from almost every injury, MOST.

I just don't think injuries should be in that definition as that counts a lot of players who come back from injury playing as good, average, or bad as they did before they got hurt.

An MCL tear never ended anyone's football career. An ACL tear, depending on the level, often required two years of full rehab up until the late 1980's. Most players couldn't afford two season away from football and re-enter with any sort of success.

Let's play a game: You name players who missed most of 2008 (3/4 of the season) with an injury that played on par statistically with their 2007 season in 2009. I'll name the players that didn't.

Osi Umenyiora? Nope.
Shawne Merriman? No way.
Rodney Harrison? Retired.
Bob Sanders? Still hurt.

Chris Simms? Matt Hasselbeck? Fred Taylor? Selvin Young? Shaun Alexander? LaMont Jordan? Rudi Johnson? Najeh Davenport? Derek Anderson? Shaun McDonald? Kevin Curtis? Joey Galloway? Patrick Kerney? Mike McKenzie? Ty Law? Roy L. Williams? Rosevelt Colvin?

I could go on all day.

[ Edited by redrathman on Jan 6, 2010 at 16:55:15 ]
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by SnakePlissken:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by TX9R:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by TX9R:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Also, most of you were wrong.

No, the AP got it wrong. Brady had a decent year, but all he had to do was stay healthy. Cassell had similar numbers and a better record with the same cast. If anything Cadillac was most deserving after destroying his knees twice and just playing the whole season. Finished up strong too.


All he had to do was stay healthy? Like he wasn't coming off ACL / MCL surgery that caused 10 months of inactivity?

Quarterbacks such as Daunte Culpepper and Brian Griese never fully recovered from the same injury.

Cadillac Williams? Seriously? The guy had 821 yards, averaging 3.9 YPC. He might have been playing for the lowly Buccaneers, but his performance this season surely isn't as impressive as Brady's. Williams clearly deserved second place.
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:


Brady is consistently a pro-bowler, not someone who should even be considered from this award. VY completely turned the Titans around and they would still have been playing like s**t if he hadn't woken up and usurped Collins. Even Cadillac Williams who destroyed both of his knees was more deserving than Brady.

This award isn't about a player turning a team around. It's about a player overcoming obstacles from the previous season to succeed through personal performance. It doesn't matter that Brady is a former MVP. He sat out nearly all of 2008 with an injury that some Quarterbacks never come out of.

Of the 50 votes, Young got just seven. I guess you had better start filling out that résumé, what with all those sports writers jobs you're qualified to apply for.

Player come back from ACl/MCLs every year. The guys you mentioned weren't any good to begin with. Hell Rice did it in the same year. You can say Caddy only had 800 yards but he did it on a terrible team while sharing the load. His injuries were far more devastating and he plays a far more difficult position to come back like that from. Brady has an all pro line and Wrs. He did OK, but what Caddy did was more fitting for the award.

It's clear you're a Longhorns homer, so this conversation isn't going anywhere.

You know absolutely nothing about ACL / MCL injuries or football for that matter.

Brian Griese was on his way to an excellent 2004 season, passing for 2632 through eleven games (that's 3828 yards over 16 games) before his injury. Griese struggled during the remaining seasons of his career before retiring at 33.

Daunte Culpepper not good? He led the league in passing yardage in 2005 with 4,717. He broke the NFL record for combined yardage with 5,123 that same year. Look him up sometime, kid. Like Griese, Culpepper has struggled following his injury.

Jerry Rice came back after three months despite warnings from doctors. He went on to crack his patella in his left kneecap during his comeback game. The team indicated that Rice's knee wasn't fully healed from the surgery. Many would argue (and the statistics back this) that Rice wasn't the same player after those two injuries.

Williams' second torn patellar tendon in his left knee wasn't nearly as damaging as his injury in 2007. I don't see how an injury that takes six to eight weeks to rehab is any more severe than a injury that took nearly ten months (including an infection).

Since when did the Patriots have All Pro Offensive Linemen and Wide Receivers? Welker was a second team All Pro, while none of the Patriots' Offensive Linemen were selected to the 2008 All Pro team.

So please, keep replying.

This has nothing to do with homerism (I'm a ND fan not a Horns fan). Tom Brady was an all pro pre-injury, VY was considered a bust coming into this season. Brady had Moss and Welker, VY had Gage, Washington & Britt. Someone mentioned self inflicted wounds, this has nothing to do with that and everything to do with a guy who was labeled a bust and no one on this site wanted us to trade for him.

VY went 8-2 coming off the bench, Brady in that same time frame went 5-4.

Frank Gore, Braylon Edwards, Ronnie Brown, Edgerrin James are just a few players who have come back from ACL tears to have great seasons and or continue to post great numbers.

Also 3 of Brady's lineman made the 2007 all pro team (one 1st teamer two 2nd teamers)

To break it down, Tom Brady is really a mediocre QB who's had the luxury of good linemen, consecutive Superbowl-caliber defenses, and clutch-kicking talent on the sidelines. -They've made a big deal about this dude's career, but he has yet to lead an 'epic' comeback to even regard the 'Joe Montana' similarities the jerk-off press seems to love throwing around.

I never said that nor is that a point I am trying to make. Brady is a very very very good QB, certainly deserving of a bust in Canton.

Oh, I never said he wasn't deserving of a HOF spot, but in laments terms of what my personal opinion is (set aside from your topic), Brady is pretty much the 'Troy Aikman' of the current generation.
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by Joecool:
This isn't the 70's where an MCL tear ends your career. I said MOST players come back to where they were from almost every injury, MOST.

I just don't think injuries should be in that definition as that counts a lot of players who come back from injury playing as good, average, or bad as they did before they got hurt.

An MCL tear never ended anyone's football career. An ACL tear, depending on the level, often required two years of full rehab up until the late 1980's. Most players couldn't afford two season away from football and re-enter with any sort of success.

Let's play a game: You name players who missed most of 2008 (3/4 of the season) with an injury that played on par statistically with their 2007 season in 2009. I'll name the players that didn't.

Osi Umenyiora? Nope.
Shawne Merriman? No way.

Rodney Harrison? Retired.
Bob Sanders? Still hurt.

Chris Simms? Matt Hasselbeck? Fred Taylor? Selvin Young? Shaun Alexander? LaMont Jordan? Rudi Johnson? Najeh Davenport? Derek Anderson? Shaun McDonald? Kevin Curtis? Joey Galloway? Patrick Kerney? Mike McKenzie? Ty Law? Roy L. Williams? Rosevelt Colvin?

I could go on all day.

Give the bold two years and we shall see. Age plays a huge factor in recovering from injuries.

Julian Peterson
Joe Montana
Jerry Rice
Frank Gore
Cadillac Williams
If Brady becomes a free agent after next season. I say make a serious push for him. Even if the we finish with a winning record.
Vince Young
Cedric Benson
Ricky Williams

Basically, some Longhorn shoulda won it. Better win tonight!
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by Joecool:
This isn't the 70's where an MCL tear ends your career. I said MOST players come back to where they were from almost every injury, MOST.

I just don't think injuries should be in that definition as that counts a lot of players who come back from injury playing as good, average, or bad as they did before they got hurt.

An MCL tear never ended anyone's football career. An ACL tear, depending on the level, often required two years of full rehab up until the late 1980's. Most players couldn't afford two season away from football and re-enter with any sort of success.

Let's play a game: You name players who missed most of 2008 (3/4 of the season) with an injury that played on par statistically with their 2007 season in 2009. I'll name the players that didn't.

Osi Umenyiora? Nope.
Shawne Merriman? No way.

Rodney Harrison? Retired.
Bob Sanders? Still hurt.

Chris Simms? Matt Hasselbeck? Fred Taylor? Selvin Young? Shaun Alexander? LaMont Jordan? Rudi Johnson? Najeh Davenport? Derek Anderson? Shaun McDonald? Kevin Curtis? Joey Galloway? Patrick Kerney? Mike McKenzie? Ty Law? Roy L. Williams? Rosevelt Colvin?

I could go on all day.

Give the bold two years and we shall see. Age plays a huge factor in recovering from injuries.

Julian Peterson
Joe Montana
Jerry Rice
Frank Gore
Cadillac Williams

But we're talking about one year, Joecool. I thought most players come back to where they were from almost every injury.

Julian Peterson was largely ineffective in 2005 following his achilles injury.

Montana, while excellent in 1986 (in which he won the CPY), never played a full 16 games again in his career. His back injury, while full healed, ultimately limited both his mobility and durability.

I've referenced Jerry Rice in another post. He cracked his knee on his first game back and never fully recovered statistically.

Gore's injury was in college.

Cadillac Williams? Didn't we already go over this guy? Rushing for less than 1,000 yards and at a 3.9 is hardly worth of this award.

Try again.
Keep in mind they give out this award every year. Strictly speaking, some seasons there is no true comeback player. 2009 would be one of those years.

but somebody has to get the award