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Does Nolan's success make you question...well everything??

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
If Nolan had Dawkins, Bailey, Dumerville, DJ Williams on the Niners he would still be the coach bc when he has the pieces on defense he wins

All he had on the Niners defense was Willis, which greatly improved our defense in many ways. But he had no secondary, and no pass rush.


Funny what he can do with a defense when he has a pass rush and secondary

And whose fault is that? 4 years in charge and you can only bring in 1 or 2 pieces on a defense.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
If Nolan had Dawkins, Bailey, Dumerville, DJ Williams on the Niners he would still be the coach bc when he has the pieces on defense he wins

All he had on the Niners defense was Willis, which greatly improved our defense in many ways. But he had no secondary, and no pass rush.


Funny what he can do with a defense when he has a pass rush and secondary

And whose fault is that? 4 years in charge and you can only bring in 1 or 2 pieces on a defense.

If you think about it, the team we have right now was built by Nolan and Im sure is a huge over haul from the original roster we had his 1st year.

I do remember lots of zoners wanting Dumervil in the 3rd and 4th round though
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
If Nolan had Dawkins, Bailey, Dumerville, DJ Williams on the Niners he would still be the coach bc when he has the pieces on defense he wins

All he had on the Niners defense was Willis, which greatly improved our defense in many ways. But he had no secondary, and no pass rush.


Funny what he can do with a defense when he has a pass rush and secondary

And whose fault is that? 4 years in charge and you can only bring in 1 or 2 pieces on a defense.

If you think about it, the team we have right now was built by Nolan and Im sure is a huge over haul from the original roster we had his 1st year.

I do remember lots of zoners wanting Dumervil in the 3rd and 4th round though

Our d is pretty good, but I don't see it as a special defense. You mention Dumervil. Well Nolan didn't come close to providing pass rushing OLB's. Something that's criticial in a 3-4. No excuses that's on Nolan.

I don't know why anyone is rethinking this. He lost the team. Plain and simple it wasn't going to happen here. You bust on your franchise QB and you're done. You miss the playoffs 4 straight season and you're done. He may be a great coordinator and may one day be a pretty good coach, but it wasn't going to happen for us. Maybe if he drafted Rodgers and found some pass rushers we wouldn't be having this conversation, but he didn't.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Oct 21, 2009 at 7:20 AM ]
Originally posted by danimal:
Originally posted by 84SheepDog:
So, is the question really, "do we question the decision to go with Singletary over Nolan?" MN has them playing ferociously but couldn't do that with our squad, which Singletary almost immediately seemed to command more from. So, what is Sing doing that Nolan couldn't? Does he simply get more respect and they play harder for him, was Nolan simply in the wrong system, what's been the difference?

That is so not the question. The question is actually just for the fans to rethink their own evaluations of their beloved 49ers. This is certainly not questioning whether he should have been fired or not.

The bottom line is this, when the masses of Niner fans get together and decide someone is an idiot, that does not make it true. It was convenient to believe Nolan was a bumbling idiot right up to and after he got fired....because guess what that means...that means we get to continue to over estimate the other aspects of the team...mgmt, other coaches...players.

Now would be a natural point for a rational person to revaluate what happened here and the team he left behind. Nolan is 6-0 and the Niners just got their ASSES kicked. Again if your goal is to always keep the Niners in the most positive light then sure there is still many explanations.

But if you have an open mind about it, you have to at least consider that maybe Nolan is not as bad as you thought and the teams he had to make do with in SF were not nearly as good as you may have thought.

Nolan is a classic case of the "good coordinator bad head coach" thing. His problem isn't x's an o's. His problems were things like game management, player development, commanding respect, knowing when to replace a player or coach who happened to be one of his guys, etc. His defense sucked here, not really because his scheme sucked(watching the 4-2-5 all day was painful though), but because when he was the GM and he picked his own players he couldn't get the guys to make it work and he couldn't figure out how to use different players. Franklin got better when we switched to a 1 gap 3-4 because for a DL he's not a Jamal Williams or Vince Wilfork, he's more like a Jay Ratliff without the sacks. Nolan inherited good 4-3 players like JP, Andre Carter, etc. and played them out of position. He couldn't make Winborn fit his system so he dumped him. He hung onto guys like Derek Smith way too long. When we had BY, JP, Carter, etc. we should've been playing a 4-3. IMO anyways, and this is coming from someone who likes the 3-4 D a lot better. Then when he was in position to get players for his system he couldn't develop guys we drafted, and didn't trust his own picks, and instead of signing some different guys who would've fit his system he went after name players like Nate and Justin Smith(I like both of them a lot though, they are good and they help us and they fit now). But he could've had Ngata, when Joey Porter was cut we passed on him, etc. There were opportunities to get guys to fit his 3-4 but he failed at it. It wasn't until Sing went to the 1 gap 3-4 and played guys like Haralson that our defense got better.
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by danimal:
Originally posted by 84SheepDog:
So, is the question really, "do we question the decision to go with Singletary over Nolan?" MN has them playing ferociously but couldn't do that with our squad, which Singletary almost immediately seemed to command more from. So, what is Sing doing that Nolan couldn't? Does he simply get more respect and they play harder for him, was Nolan simply in the wrong system, what's been the difference?

That is so not the question. The question is actually just for the fans to rethink their own evaluations of their beloved 49ers. This is certainly not questioning whether he should have been fired or not.

The bottom line is this, when the masses of Niner fans get together and decide someone is an idiot, that does not make it true. It was convenient to believe Nolan was a bumbling idiot right up to and after he got fired....because guess what that means...that means we get to continue to over estimate the other aspects of the team...mgmt, other coaches...players.

Now would be a natural point for a rational person to revaluate what happened here and the team he left behind. Nolan is 6-0 and the Niners just got their ASSES kicked. Again if your goal is to always keep the Niners in the most positive light then sure there is still many explanations.

But if you have an open mind about it, you have to at least consider that maybe Nolan is not as bad as you thought and the teams he had to make do with in SF were not nearly as good as you may have thought.

Nolan is a classic case of the "good coordinator bad head coach" thing. His problem isn't x's an o's. His problems were things like game management, player development, commanding respect, knowing when to replace a player or coach who happened to be one of his guys, etc. His defense sucked here, not really because his scheme sucked(watching the 4-2-5 all day was painful though), but because when he was the GM and he picked his own players he couldn't get the guys to make it work and he couldn't figure out how to use different players. Franklin got better when we switched to a 1 gap 3-4 because for a DL he's not a Jamal Williams or Vince Wilfork, he's more like a Jay Ratliff without the sacks. Nolan inherited good 4-3 players like JP, Andre Carter, etc. and played them out of position. He couldn't make Winborn fit his system so he dumped him. He hung onto guys like Derek Smith way too long. When we had BY, JP, Carter, etc. we should've been playing a 4-3. IMO anyways, and this is coming from someone who likes the 3-4 D a lot better. Then when he was in position to get players for his system he couldn't develop guys we drafted, and didn't trust his own picks, and instead of signing some different guys who would've fit his system he went after name players like Nate and Justin Smith(I like both of them a lot though, they are good and they help us and they fit now). But he could've had Ngata, when Joey Porter was cut we passed on him, etc. There were opportunities to get guys to fit his 3-4 but he failed at it. It wasn't until Sing went to the 1 gap 3-4 and played guys like Haralson that our defense got better.

  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,131
Re-think?

Not really. Nolan never developed the personal chemistry a coach must have with his players. Of course the Alex Smith situation was the most visible part of that but it was apparent with Vernon Davis on another level as well as other players as well.

In defense of Nolan, he took over a team with less talent than most first year expansion teams, hence, he was going to have a difficult time no matter what he did.

Also, it is relevant to review history if we are going to talk about him; he was initially hired so late in the year that all the good assistant coaches were committed, hence, SF wound up with losers like Billy Davis. In each succeeding year, events occurred that could not have been more poorly timed from the 49ers POV.

But hey, it is a business of "what have you done for me lately," and everyone in the business realizes it. Fans are idiots much of the time. We don't want to look at causes. All we want is wins. So be it.
He has a top 5 CB and a pure pass rusher at his disposal, plus he doesnt have to deal with the offensive side of the ball anymore
I'm glad he is having some success, too bad he couldnt make up his mind what he wanted to run here, a 4-3 OR 3-4 OR the BIG NICKEL.
Worth reminding....Denvers defense SUCKED last year. So it is not fair to paint the players as superstars.
It answers a question actually. That Mike Nolan is a DC and not a HC.
Originally posted by 49ersRednGold:
It answers a question actually. That Mike Nolan is a DC and not a HC.

I kind of think that whole thing is a myth. I would have to say the top decision makers in the NFL kind of think that is a myth also.....evidenced by so many chances these coaches get at HC.

I think fans take a leap on this designation.....afterall both HC and Coord is a High Functioning NFL coaching position. I find it hard to come to terms with that a person can be Great at one and Horrible at the other.
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,065
Let the season play out before we name the Broncos the best ever.
Originally posted by danimal:
Originally posted by 49ersRednGold:
It answers a question actually. That Mike Nolan is a DC and not a HC.

I kind of think that whole thing is a myth. I would have to say the top decision makers in the NFL kind of think that is a myth also.....evidenced by so many chances these coaches get at HC.

I think fans take a leap on this designation.....afterall both HC and Coord is a High Functioning NFL coaching position. I find it hard to come to terms with that a person can be Great at one and Horrible at the other.

Can you name a few that have gotten more than 2 chances to be a HC when they've flamed out 2 or more times?

I can see giving them another chance. There have been success stories like Belicheck who didn't do well in his first Head Coaching gig at Cleveland but excelled in New England. Because it is possible that during the first time around, they were inexperienced and such but if a HC flames out more than once, I don't see them getting another chance.

I think there is a big difference between being the HC and being a Coordinator. I remember reading an article about how as a HC you had so many more responsibilities. Many of which you wouldn't think of like creating daily schedules. Nolan was not only our HC but also was the head guy in making personnel decisions over Scott. Some people just can't handle that much responsibility and others excel at it. As a HC, you have to be on top of Special team, offense, defense, personnel (players and coaches), etc. As a Coordinator, you may have some say who your O or D line coach is or your CB or WR coach is but their decision making is so much less that what a HC has to make.

Nolan as a DC now can just focus on defense instead of spreading himself thin in so many areas.

The trend in the NFL is hiring hot shot coordinators that have never been coaches. Just look at last year where guys like Spagnoli, McDaniels, or Schwartz are being pursued heavily or even relatively unknown coordinators like Mike Smith and Tony Sparano who show a lot during interviews. I honestly don't see guys like Romeo Crennel, Mike Nolan, Rod Marinelli, Linehan, all recently fired first time head coaches getting another chance unless they are once again top coordinators in this league and they are "hot" items as a result. A lot of NFL teams are looking for the new up and comers.
Here's a little tidbit

I was listening to local sports radio show here in STL and they had Chris Mortensen on to talk about various topics around the league lately like the Redskins, Larry Johnson, Farve, possible head coaching opportunities at the end of the season, etc....

Well, the topic of Mike Shanahan and the Broncos came up and Mortensen said that he talks to every coach in the NFL at the end of their season to get their opinion of how the season went.

After Shanny got fired, Mortensen called him up and asked about his future plans and Mike said that he was disappointed because he felt the 2009 Broncos were a legitimate Super Bowl contender and he wanted to be there to experience it. This of course was before Cutler was traded.

Interesting to hear though that maybe the Broncos were actually already a good team and this 6-0 start isn't a surprise to one former coach.
  • Paul
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,726
I'll go out on a limb and predict that if Denver makes the playoffs and their Defense is in the top 10 Nolan will be a head coach again. Jerry Jones can run the show and boss Nolan around some.
  • GEEK
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 17,057
Originally posted by Icedawg316:
I'll go out on a limb and predict that if Denver makes the playoffs and their Defense is in the top 10 Nolan will be a head coach again. Jerry Jones can run the show and boss Nolan around some.

I don't think Nolan will be a HC in 2010. For his family's sake, along with his stress level, I hope he remains DC for another year or two before attempting a comeback.
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