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Please show me the light (Cyprien)

Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
The thing about Cyprien...he's most likely a SS in the NFL. At least that's what most scouting reports say. He can hit hard...but pass coverage isn't necessarily his strong suit. He thrives playing in/near the box, where he can lay the wood to ball carriers. So, if you're thinking of him as a FS, that's probably not the position he'll play in the pros. He could still be worth drafting, given Whitner's in the last year of his contract. If so, then begs the question would he be better in pass coverage than Donte...he'd be cheaper, that's for sure.

And that would be a hell yes!! Whitner, IMO, is gone next year. Cyprien would be an upgrade at SS for us while learning from both Dahl/Whitner. Cyprien would be much better as our SS than Whitner. Same type of in the box S, but better range n ball skills. I remember something back when about Fangio's safeties. They're supposed to be interchangeable. Wonder if they see Spillman or Robinson competing for that FS spot too. All of these except for Whitner, play ST. Versatility a plus. Too bad Robinson wasn't a bit taller, but I remember him being a ball-hawk with some range. Is that the fact, still? There's a reason we got him in the latter rounds.

Cyprien, now, seems to be pegged even higher than 31 into the twenties from some analysts. That's crazy! #31 or #34 would be a nice spot to nab him.
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Every safety in this draft is going to have mistakes on film and whiff on some tackles. Theres a reason there is no safety being considered a top 10 pick. You don't see safeties in college have perfect games.

I wasn't expecting him to have a perfect game, or anything close to a perfect game. I wasn't expecting a guy who over and over again wasn't breaking down and was getting bullied around while going in for off-balance arm tackles, when not fully whiffing when going for knockout blows. When he lands those blows it's impressive, but we're looking for a starter at FS right now. To me he looked like someone who could be a really good player in the league in a couple seasons, but not the type of guy you want to plug in when you're contending.
Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Every safety in this draft is going to have mistakes on film and whiff on some tackles. Theres a reason there is no safety being considered a top 10 pick. You don't see safeties in college have perfect games.

I wasn't expecting him to have a perfect game, or anything close to a perfect game. I wasn't expecting a guy who over and over again wasn't breaking down and was getting bullied around while going in for off-balance arm tackles, when not fully whiffing when going for knockout blows. When he lands those blows it's impressive, but we're looking for a starter at FS right now. To me he looked like someone who could be a really good player in the league in a couple seasons, but not the type of guy you want to plug in when you're contending.

Other than Kenny Vaccaro (and he seems more like a SS-type), I'm not sure there's a safety out there that can step right in and start on a super bowl caliber team like ours. Unless we sign someone, we're stuck with Trenton Robinson, CJ Spillman or Craig Dahl as the options for our opening day starting FS.
Quentin Mikell is still out there. I always thought he was pretty good. Maybe on a 1 or 2 year contract until we groom someone to take the job from him would work.
Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Every safety in this draft is going to have mistakes on film and whiff on some tackles. Theres a reason there is no safety being considered a top 10 pick. You don't see safeties in college have perfect games.

I wasn't expecting him to have a perfect game, or anything close to a perfect game. I wasn't expecting a guy who over and over again wasn't breaking down and was getting bullied around while going in for off-balance arm tackles, when not fully whiffing when going for knockout blows. When he lands those blows it's impressive, but we're looking for a starter at FS right now. To me he looked like someone who could be a really good player in the league in a couple seasons, but not the type of guy you want to plug in when you're contending.

You are way overstating his missed tackles, and I have no idea what you are talking about him being "bullied"

If you think Cyprien is "bullied", please tell me one safety in college ball that isnt
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Every safety in this draft is going to have mistakes on film and whiff on some tackles. Theres a reason there is no safety being considered a top 10 pick. You don't see safeties in college have perfect games.

I wasn't expecting him to have a perfect game, or anything close to a perfect game. I wasn't expecting a guy who over and over again wasn't breaking down and was getting bullied around while going in for off-balance arm tackles, when not fully whiffing when going for knockout blows. When he lands those blows it's impressive, but we're looking for a starter at FS right now. To me he looked like someone who could be a really good player in the league in a couple seasons, but not the type of guy you want to plug in when you're contending.

You are way overstating his missed tackles, and I have no idea what you are talking about him being "bullied"

If you think Cyprien is "bullied", please tell me one safety in college ball that isnt

I'm talking about the one game where I was watching him specifically. Yes, he lays people out, but he also tries to lay people out and misses entirely as frequently as he lays people out. When he's not trying to lay people out, he's frequently off-balance, flat-footed, and trying to arm tackle, which just isn't going to work in the NFL. I came away seeing some pretty exciting flashes, but overall very unimpressed.

If we had re-upped Goldson on the franchise tag for another year I'd be ALL FOR letting drafting him and letting him mature/learn how to use his athletic ability to be a more fundamentally sound football player, but IMO I think a lot of 9ers fans who are obsessed with him are basing their opinions on his highlight reel, which really is impressive, but masks what a typical play looks like.
Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Every safety in this draft is going to have mistakes on film and whiff on some tackles. Theres a reason there is no safety being considered a top 10 pick. You don't see safeties in college have perfect games.

I wasn't expecting him to have a perfect game, or anything close to a perfect game. I wasn't expecting a guy who over and over again wasn't breaking down and was getting bullied around while going in for off-balance arm tackles, when not fully whiffing when going for knockout blows. When he lands those blows it's impressive, but we're looking for a starter at FS right now. To me he looked like someone who could be a really good player in the league in a couple seasons, but not the type of guy you want to plug in when you're contending.

You are way overstating his missed tackles, and I have no idea what you are talking about him being "bullied"

If you think Cyprien is "bullied", please tell me one safety in college ball that isnt

I'm talking about the one game where I was watching him specifically. Yes, he lays people out, but he also tries to lay people out and misses entirely as frequently as he lays people out. When he's not trying to lay people out, he's frequently off-balance, flat-footed, and trying to arm tackle, which just isn't going to work in the NFL. I came away seeing some pretty exciting flashes, but overall very unimpressed.

If we had re-upped Goldson on the franchise tag for another year I'd be ALL FOR letting drafting him and letting him mature/learn how to use his athletic ability to be a more fundamentally sound football player, but IMO I think a lot of 9ers fans who are obsessed with him are basing their opinions on his highlight reel, which really is impressive, but masks what a typical play looks like.

I haven't even seen his highlight clips. I've only seen his games. He is overly agressive with his angles and goes high way too often. But we are talking about a guy that grades out as end of 1st or early 2nd. We're not talking about a safety on the level of Eric Berry, who in recent memory was the only safety I saw in college that had just about perfect film.

His poor tackling is for going too high, too often going for the big hit, and over running his angles. Those are correctable problems.

If you can find one prospect at the end of the 1st that you don't see mistakes in their game, then you know they aren't a late 1st rounder.
^^^ Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying about him, and to clarify again, my expectations aren't that he should be playing perfectly or that he should be a top 10 talent that's somehow hanging around in the top of the second round for some mysterious reason.

I didn't expect him to be a perfect (by a long shot), but I also expected him to be better than he looked to me.

I don't like him where he's slotted. Clearly you do. Looks like we'll have to just agree to disagree.
[ Edited by PopeyeJonesing on Mar 19, 2013 at 3:21 PM ]
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Every safety in this draft is going to have mistakes on film and whiff on some tackles. Theres a reason there is no safety being considered a top 10 pick. You don't see safeties in college have perfect games.

I wasn't expecting him to have a perfect game, or anything close to a perfect game. I wasn't expecting a guy who over and over again wasn't breaking down and was getting bullied around while going in for off-balance arm tackles, when not fully whiffing when going for knockout blows. When he lands those blows it's impressive, but we're looking for a starter at FS right now. To me he looked like someone who could be a really good player in the league in a couple seasons, but not the type of guy you want to plug in when you're contending.

You are way overstating his missed tackles, and I have no idea what you are talking about him being "bullied"

If you think Cyprien is "bullied", please tell me one safety in college ball that isnt

I'm talking about the one game where I was watching him specifically. Yes, he lays people out, but he also tries to lay people out and misses entirely as frequently as he lays people out. When he's not trying to lay people out, he's frequently off-balance, flat-footed, and trying to arm tackle, which just isn't going to work in the NFL. I came away seeing some pretty exciting flashes, but overall very unimpressed.

If we had re-upped Goldson on the franchise tag for another year I'd be ALL FOR letting drafting him and letting him mature/learn how to use his athletic ability to be a more fundamentally sound football player, but IMO I think a lot of 9ers fans who are obsessed with him are basing their opinions on his highlight reel, which really is impressive, but masks what a typical play looks like.

I haven't even seen his highlight clips. I've only seen his games. He is overly agressive with his angles and goes high way too often. But we are talking about a guy that grades out as end of 1st or early 2nd. We're not talking about a safety on the level of Eric Berry, who in recent memory was the only safety I saw in college that had just about perfect film.

His poor tackling is for going too high, too often going for the big hit, and over running his angles. Those are correctable problems.

If you can find one prospect at the end of the 1st that you don't see mistakes in their game, then you know they aren't a late 1st rounder.

Actually. Playing against the competition he played against, near perfection isn't too much to ask for. Look at Robert Alford. He completely dominated his level of competition. I'm not sure how Cyprien is in coverage also. He's gotten beat a few too many times (by receivers that won't be anywhere near the NFL).
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Actually. Playing against the competition he played against, near perfection isn't too much to ask for. Look at Robert Alford. He completely dominated his level of competition. I'm not sure how Cyprien is in coverage also. He's gotten beat a few too many times (by receivers that won't be anywhere near the NFL).

lol, have you watched Alford's games? He did not play perfect

Edit: If you want to see for yourself, just look on Youtube Alford against any WR with size to the outside. He simply cannot line up against them, which is why he is projected as nickel corner.
[ Edited by SunDevilNiner79 on Mar 20, 2013 at 9:07 AM ]
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Actually. Playing against the competition he played against, near perfection isn't too much to ask for. Look at Robert Alford. He completely dominated his level of competition. I'm not sure how Cyprien is in coverage also. He's gotten beat a few too many times (by receivers that won't be anywhere near the NFL).

lol, have you watched Alford's games? He did not play perfect

Edit: If you want to see for yourself, just look on Youtube Alford against any WR with size to the outside. He simply cannot line up against them, which is why he is projected as nickel corner.

I've watched every Alford clip available online. Several times. Including the Sr. Bowl, can you direct me to an example where he was dominated by a WR with size? Especially against the lower level of competition. Missouri never threw in his direction. At the sr. Bowl I saw one pass (I believe for Goodwin) completed against him. He's had a few questionable PI calls against him, and I admit he's not overly physical, but his instincts and quickness have allowed him to blanket everyone I saw him matched up against.
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
So if he is unimpressive, what safety have you seen play that was impressive?

Every safety in this draft is going to have mistakes on film and whiff on some tackles. Theres a reason there is no safety being considered a top 10 pick. You don't see safeties in college have perfect games.

None really. Maybe Tony Jefferson...

Tony Jefferson is smart, but SO slow. even on the field.

All safeties learn how to tackle better in the NFL, but players whiff on tackles all the time. Cully and Goldson had whiffs in the Superbowl.

My choice at safety is Matt Elam, Bacarri Rambo, or DJ Swearinger.
Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
The thing about Cyprien...he's most likely a SS in the NFL. At least that's what most scouting reports say. He can hit hard...but pass coverage isn't necessarily his strong suit. He thrives playing in/near the box, where he can lay the wood to ball carriers. So, if you're thinking of him as a FS, that's probably not the position he'll play in the pros. He could still be worth drafting, given Whitner's in the last year of his contract. If so, then begs the question would he be better in pass coverage than Donte...he'd be cheaper, that's for sure.

Agreed.
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I've watched every Alford clip available online. Several times. Including the Sr. Bowl, can you direct me to an example where he was dominated by a WR with size? Especially against the lower level of competition. Missouri never threw in his direction. At the sr. Bowl I saw one pass (I believe for Goodwin) completed against him. He's had a few questionable PI calls against him, and I admit he's not overly physical, but his instincts and quickness have allowed him to blanket everyone I saw him matched up against.

No I can't because there probably isn't any full game footage of Alford online and its a sidetrack of what we were discussing. And your statement seems to indicate you're position that Alford played near perfect on what little footage there is online...

The main point: Which is several posters thinking Cyprien is over rated because he makes mistakes. Go ahead and have that opinion. The great thing is the draft is coming up and soon enough we will see if he can hack it in the NFL.

My point was Cyprien's play in games warrants his late 1st/early 2nd round grade and for any prospect in that range, you're going to see mistakes made but enough potential on film to believe he will continue to progress into a good NFL player.
http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2013/03/jonathan-cyprien-scouting-report.html#more-23987