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We will not be drafting a NT high

  • buck
  • Veteran
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Originally posted by dmatt:
This is key. I think the fact that he can spell both Smith and McDonald when they are in Nickel is huge. My guess is that we'll see a lot less of Justin in these situations which are harder on your body. The closer a d-lineman gets to the center the more physical it gets.

Are you suggesting that Justin Smith will be rotated out on passing down?

Justin has averaged over 6 sacks a year and destroys the pass protection.
Justin and Aldon Smith are a dynamic, deadly tag team on passing downs.

I think it is more likely that he gets some rest on first downs, and when we have a good sized lead.
I'm not sure what the fascination is w/Datone Jones or Hunt...I know they're both good DE's, but I think Fangio could make better use of a guy like Sly Williams, who can play both DE and in the middle and goes well over 300 lbs, yet is very quick. I'm not at all convinced we should have a "pure" NT...rather have guys who can play anywhere on the DL. That gives Fangio a lot more options and could prevent overuse of Justin, RayMac, et al. And, for the record...I don't think the NFL has seen anyone like Justin, who at 285-290 has exceptional ability to collapse the pocket and pressure the QB. That's why I'd rather have another "big"...a guy who wouldn't get pushed around by 330 lb OT's.
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by 60sfan:
Looks like Dorsey at NT is what Harbaugh has in mind..............http://www.49erswebzone.com/news/goto.php?id=56403

It looks like Harbaugh likes forcing square pegs into round holes.

So you are buying what Ole Jimmy is selling ?

How do you know he isn't blowing a bunch of smoke because they are targeting one of Jessie Williams, Jonathan Hankins or John Jenkins with an early pick ?
It's possible. Wouldn't be Jenkins though. To one dimensional. Williams and Hankins would be more flexible to play all 3 spots as well as play in the nickle. It's just that it's not Balke's history to draft conventional NTs near the top. My guess is that he wants a couple of extra strong 295-305, athletic, versatile linemen with a good motor to rotate.
Originally posted by 60sfan:
It's possible. Wouldn't be Jenkins though. To one dimensional. Williams and Hankins would be more flexible to play all 3 spots as well as play in the nickle. It's just that it's not Balke's history to draft conventional NTs near the top. My guess is that he wants a couple of extra strong 295-305, athletic, versatile linemen with a good motor to rotate.

Baalke doesn't have nearly long enough of a track record to make that determination.

"Its not in Baalke's history to draft speedy, undersized wide receivers in the 1st round........its why he took Kyle Williams and Ronald Johnson both late in the draft....he'll never take one in the first round."
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Baalke doesn't have nearly long enough of a track record to make that determination.

"Its not in Baalke's history to draft speedy, undersized wide receivers in the 1st round........its why he took Kyle Williams and Ronald Johnson both late in the draft....he'll never take one in the first round."

Believe it or not, that may be true. Small guys do get hurt easier.
Originally posted by 60sfan:
Believe it or not, that may be true. Small guys do get hurt easier.

Hey look......look up, the point I was trying to make, totally cleared and went way over your head with an impressive amount of distance.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Hey look......look up, the point I was trying to make, totally cleared and went way over your head with an impressive amount of distance.

If you are referring to AJ (6'0" 194lbs), while not big, I don't consider him a small receiver like Kyle Williams (5'10" 185). Fact is, AJ was drafted with the intention to be an outside receiver with Kyle in the slot. Is this your big impressive point?
Thought this was an appropriate article for this thread:


49ers' defensive line adjustment? Dorsey in, Sopoaga and Jean-Francois out, reviewing the practical needsPOSTED BY TIM KAWAKAMI ON MARCH 20TH, 2013 AT 4:00 PM | CATEGORIZED AS 49ERS, NFL

Greg Papa and I argued about this last week in the Comcast SportsNet Bay Area newsroom, and I'm sure he'll yell at me about it plenty more in the future, so I might as well get this down in a blog-item for posterity…

The gist: Papa was saying that the 49ers lost nose tackle Isaac Sopoaga and his back-up Ricky Jean-Francois in free agency and that signing DT Glenn Dorsey is not at all a proper way to fill that void because Dorsey isn't a true NT.

Fine and point well-taken, but of course Papa went all nutty with arcane descriptions of the "0 technique," the "3 technique," playing 1 or 2 gaps, and all the coaching jargon he learned deep in the Raiders' secret corridors and now he loves to throw out like he's Football Zeus.

GPapa knows more about football techniques, alignments and strategies than I do, no question. Al Davis taught him well. But I disagreed with him on a major point.

The Sopoapa/Dorsey switch is isn't about replacing a player you call a nose tackle exactly with another player you call a nose tackle, exactly and identically.

I believe 49ers defensive coordinator Vic Fangio just likes taking the best players he can get and fitting them together as cohesively as possible, and that Sopoaga and Jean-Francois were decent but certainly not great… and definitely replaceable if their costs grew too unwieldy.

Also: Why go nutty over the loss of Sopoaga, who played 30% of the snaps last season, and Jean-Francois, who played 27% of the snaps (most of those at end/DT when Justin Smith was hurt)? And did you notice that both were rather lacking in impact when they did play?

The heart of this is that the 49ers' base defense is a 3-4, which would make the nose tackle a very important part of the defense… if, indeed, they lined up in their base a majority of the time.

But they don't actually line up in a 3-4–not a pure one–all the time.

Why not? Hint: Opponent offenses have learned that it's not always wise to line up in a standard set and try to run at Patrick Willis, Justin Smith and NaVorro Bowman all day.

Opponent offenses have for the most part given up going with a normal two-back, two-WR, one-TE set against the 49ers; most of the time, it's like what the Packers did in Week 1 and in the playoffs last year or Atlanta in the NFC title game.

Offenses go three-WR almost from start to finish, or if they're not three-WR they're four-WR, and that takes Sopoaga off the field because he's certainly not a pass rusher.
From what I saw, Fangio's usual answer to counter spread-out offenses was to essentially go to a four-man line, with Aldon Smith as the right end, Justin Smith as a "3 technique" (THAT'S FOR YOU GPAPA!) defensive tackle, Ray McDonald as another insider rusher and Ahmad Brooks usually rushing from the left edge/LDE/LB spot.
Sometimes the LBs lined up as DEs, sometimes they stood up as LBs and rushed anyway, so you can call it a 3-4 if you want. But the essence of it was a four-man rush line with Justin Smith and McDonald as DTs and two guys lined up outside them coming off the edges.

It's what almost all defenses do vs. passing teams. It's the right way to do it.

My point: Dorsey–and presumably whoever else the 49ers sign or draft in the coming weeks–will be much more useful as a part-time NT (which he's not great at) but mostly as somebody Fangio can use in a DT rotation with Justin Smith and McDonald against pass formations.

It's more important, given the way offenses attack the 49ers D, to play the DT well than to be a perfect NT candidate.

Sopoaga was not an option against spread-out offenses and Jean-Francois only got major playing time when Justin Smith got hurt, and RJF wasn't very good once he got in there.

Once again: Dorsey isn't a pure nose tackle and it isn't a big deal because the 49ers only need a serviceable NT; what they really need is a stronger pass-rushing DT rotation to give Justin Smith and McDonald more rest and maybe add some oomph, too.

That's Dorsey, and he'll be followed by probably be 1 or 2 DT draft picks, and maybe another free-agent signing or two.

Now GPapa had another good point, and I will concede on this one: You want a very good NT to play against power offenses, such as Baltimore and Seattle, and those are two important teams. Great NTs keep blockers away from ILBs Willis and Bowman.

And yes, Sopoaga played 88% of the snaps in the last Seattle game (Seattle got a big early lead and didn't need to throw much)… and played 54% of the snaps in the Super Bowl against the Ravens. (All snap-counts courtesy of Matt Maiocco's running playing time tally–thanks MM!)

So if Sopoaga was a great NT, there would be a great need to replace him as powerfully as possible to stand up to the power games of the very good teams.

But again, I think Sopoaga, 31, declined a bit last year–he's still a solid player, just not an irreplaceable guy, and I think Baltimore showed that he can be blocked when you line up and run it up the middle.

Dorsey is by no means a Pro Bowler. He's been limited by injuries. And he's not a pure nose tackle. But he's a broader part of the equation for the 49ers D-line, and if he can play DT in some important pass-rush situations, and give Justin Smith and Ray McDonald some rest, and maybe even make some plays at either NT or DT… Dorsey is a solid add.

And more adds are coming, I would assume.
Who wants to go on record and commit whether or not we will pick a NT in the first 2 rounds? I say no. In fact, I do not think we will draft a NT in the first 3 rounds. I am on the record. Who else wants to go on the record?
Originally posted by 60sfan:
Who wants to go on record and commit whether or not we will pick a NT in the first 2 rounds? I say no. In fact, I do not think we will draft a NT in the first 3 rounds. I am on the record. Who else wants to go on the record?

I will go on record and say we will draft a DT (wether its one of the more pure NT, or one of the tweener guys) with one of the first two picks.

But who cares? whats yur point? What does one win if they are correct? some weak bragging rights that noone will remember a week after the draft, or even care about to begin with?
I definitely dont think the front office shares allot of the zones fears about or D-line. While I think they add some depth, its highly doubtful they feel handcuffed to taking any D-lineman early. Look at the last couple years... they have felt comfortable with Tomsula's ability to coach up late rounders and UDFA's. While they will certainly add competition, it just doesn't appear like the niners value interior D-lineman like other teams and other positions.
Originally posted by 5280High:
I definitely dont think the front office shares allot of the zones fears about or D-line. While I think they add some depth, its highly doubtful they feel handcuffed to taking any D-lineman early. Look at the last couple years... they have felt comfortable with Tomsula's ability to coach up late rounders and UDFA's. While they will certainly add competition, it just doesn't appear like the niners value interior D-lineman like other teams and other positi ons.

We have Had Smith, an over acheiving soapoaga, and Mcdonald. Last season was the first season in years where we actually had injurys on the dline. we have been extremely lucky in that regard, and the depth was never tested.

I also find it funny that Harbagh and Fangio have been here two seasons, yet fans act as if they have built the team they ultimately want to build. Also add in the fact that the first year the defense was extremely dominate. Last season we saw some drop off in production from the dline, and the injury to cowboy hurt us more than people want to realize. Im sure they noticed that. The only thing that is safe to assume is that Harbaalkie will do their own thing and select players they feel will benefit the team most. Anything else is up in the air.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by 5280High:
I definitely dont think the front office shares allot of the zones fears about or D-line. While I think they add some depth, its highly doubtful they feel handcuffed to taking any D-lineman early. Look at the last couple years... they have felt comfortable with Tomsula's ability to coach up late rounders and UDFA's. While they will certainly add competition, it just doesn't appear like the niners value interior D-lineman like other teams and other positi ons.

We have Had Smith, an over acheiving soapoaga, and Mcdonald. Last season was the first season in years where we actually had injurys on the dline. we have been extremely lucky in that regard, and the depth was never tested.

I also find it funny that Harbagh and Fangio have been here two seasons, yet fans act as if they have built the team they ultimately want to build. Also add in the fact that the first year the defense was extremely dominate. Last season we saw some drop off in production from the dline, and the injury to cowboy hurt us more than people want to realize. Im sure they noticed that. The only thing that is safe to assume is that Harbaalkie will do their own thing and select players they feel will benefit the team most. Anything else is up in the air.

During the past two years we had our supposed "must bring back NT" in Franklin move on, the FO didn't freak out about NT instead just moved Soap over, then didnt freak out about D-End but just promoted McDonald. Both situations that could of necessatated going after D-Lineman early, but they didn't. I never said they wont draft a D-lineman early or that they are content with the roster, just that they wont feel obligated to appease the chicken littles of the post season and reach for a D-lineman. The need for depth is there, but its hard for me to believe the front office would let that need trumph a great player at the DB, TE, or even WR positions at 31 & 34.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
I will go on record and say we will draft a DT (wether its one of the more pure NT, or one of the tweener guys) with one of the first two picks.

But who cares? whats yur point? What does one win if they are correct? some weak bragging rights that noone will remember a week after the draft, or even care about to begin with?

Seems as though you care. I am surprised you're responding.............more than once. Believe me, If you end up being right, you'll be the first to announce it. Book it!