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Is anyone else skeptical of drafting an NT high?

Our run D with Franklin at DT was verrrryyyy nice.
Good post and some really insightful commenta .

Like a few here would Rather go NT in the first then wait till the 3rd or 4th to take a guy like Davis bass or Catapano. Both have been very impressive small school guys at the east/west practices.

Both have solid rushing abilities and look stout against the run, look to have high motors and seem eager to learn from all reports. Would be happy having one learn everything from Justin and see what we get. Half the time work ethic ad eagerness to learn is more inportant than talent.

At worst we get an eventual replacement /rotation for raymac and can take a stud next year.
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Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
Michael Carter was a nose tackle and a key part of the Niners Super Bowl era. If there is a good one then yes you do draft high. Look at Ngata and Wolfork, both in the AFC title game--yet again.

A good NT makes s**tty linebackers look decent, a good NT makes great linebackers look absolutely ridiculous.

Yeup and imagine if we had a good NT next to Justin. Power RBs are running inside on us pretty effectively - and we don't want a NT? To me, it makes no sense at all. The way we have really dominated pass first team is by making them pass-only teams. If we stop the run against Seattle and Rams - they have no chance.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Yeup and imagine if we had a good NT next to Justin. Power RBs are running inside on us pretty effectively - and we don't want a NT? To me, it makes no sense at all. The way we have really dominated pass first team is by making them pass-only teams. If we stop the run against Seattle and Rams - they have no chance.

I'd rather orient my team to stop emerging threats
Originally posted by nickbradley:
I'd rather orient my team to stop emerging threats

What emerging threat? What you should be looking at is having Seattle and Marshawn Lynch to deal with, year in and year out over the next few years. Having an NT that bottlenecks the middle is crucial to stop these big power running backs that the 49ers have had issues with this year.

You don't have to look any further than to see what Soap going from performing well last year to performing subpar this season has meant to this defense as a whole, when this team lost games this year, a big part of it has been the other teams running game and threat to run the ball. You don't improve that situation by drafting a guy to sit on the bench and sub in every now and them.
I'd prefer Baalke to take the shotgun approach to our DE/DT situation, draft a guy like Floyd high and then two tweener DE/NT types in like the 4th and 7th. Take the BPA at DB in the second, a big WR in the 3rd, then TE and OLB wherever there is value and that is a dream draft blueprint IMO. Obviously if the value isnt there or a great player drops, plans change.
Originally posted by nickbradley:
That's a pipe dream -- NTs often bust and the ones who are good are late bloomers. Alan Branch is a good example. If I remember correctly, the 'zone was in love with Branch, and he was the two-gapper we all dreamed of. He failed at the nose in AZ, but he's matured and is a very good two-gap DT in a 4-3 defense.

So do DE's and CB's and WR's and RB's....by your logic, the safe thing is not to draft anyone, ever again.

I remember when virtually the entire Webzone was in love with a sure-fire, can't miss defensive end by the name of Adam Carriker....how did that did end up?
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Jan 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM ]
Originally posted by VA49er:
It's also a position of great importance for us. I'm not opposed. We should generally be taking the best player. If that's a NT then I'm fine with that. I'd like to get people who can contribute. We have lot's of picks this year and few holes. It will be an interesting draft.

If Soap leaves, NT goes from being somewhat a position of weakness to a MAJOR hole, if the talent is there, then that becomes THE priority on the defense, because that would be the only spot you're going into the draft and looking for an instant starter.

You beat a 3-4 defense with a weak NT by gashing them up the middle, repeatedly, you get your blockers to the second level to wipe out their linebackers for big gains. It is the centerpiece of that type of defense and should never be overlooked, regardless of what "trends" you think are coming down the pipeline.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Jan 19, 2013 at 2:32 PM ]
How many snaps does sopoaga take vs cowboy and Mcdonald. I rest my case.
Originally posted by 9erred:
How many snaps does sopoaga take vs cowboy and Mcdonald. I rest my case.

How many snaps does the backup 3-4 DE play vs Soap? How many dominant 3-4 defenses survive long-term without a quality NT? If you skimp on that, you might as well move to a 4-3 at that point.


How many snaps could a better NT play in comparison to Soap, who is basically limited and has had a downyear. People are making the assumption that its the scheme, and not necessarily that Soap simply isn't all that good.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Jan 19, 2013 at 2:35 PM ]
*** idea:

If we have (4) starter-caliber 5-technique defensive linemen, we can continually rotate them in and out, stunt, and even shift to 2 and 4-man defensive lines. They number of variations is pretty large. This is in contrast to the centralized model of a featured zero-tech nose tackle.
Originally posted by eonblue:
Couple of points.

A good NT is crucial to the 3-4. Obv. By threatening to beat the C and collapse the pocket he has to pull the G. This is the most threatening situation you can put an Oline in.

Sopo can't beat the center. He can cover the centers A gaps so hes good on the run but he doesn't draw the guard which opens the guards to double where ever the rush is coming from.

He basically nullifies the pass rush with his inability to beat the center.

The defense fails wiith no pass rush especially against a team like GB plus Sopo has been playing about 25% of the snaps but GB runs a lot of 3 receiver sets so they have to throw in a nickle and take out the NT.

So I don't think Fangio wants to play without a NT or that were shifting to a different alignment. I think hes just adjusting because hes smart.

I think Sopo has to go this offseason or take a huge cut. If he doesnt want to take a cut he can try his luck elsewhere. I personally would love to see us draft a NT like Jenkins or move up for Hankins. A young and explosive NT would revitalize the aging line and would be a great piece for the future of the front 7. I really don't like the ideal of drafting a DE either especially Shariff Floyd. Hes going to sit on the bench. He would be behind every other guy that can play DE on the depth chart. I would much rather them draft a tweener DE if they cant get a NT.

This, I'm amazed at how many people are shocked that this team might possibly need an NT, the logic is absolutely mystifying. The matchup problems a good NT would cause are virtually endless. You can't block him with one guy, you need two people to block him, you can't block Justin Smith with just one guy or you're courting disaster, so now the OL basically has to utilize 3-4 people to block 2 guys, meanwhile you've got 3 other potential pass-rushers, leave 1-2 guys to block them, in this situation, the defense forces the offense to respond by bringing in more blockers and limiting what they can do on offense as a result.

"Herp derp, we don't need an NT because Soap doesn't play that many snaps.......Herp derp, we don't need to play Kaepernick because Alex is the quarterback....we don't need to upgrade at wide receiver because Brett Swain doesn't get out onto the field that often."


I'm sure part of the limitation is schematic, if you don't have a great or good NT, you adjust your defense to however possible, but you're an absolute fool if you think Fangio wouldn't fully utilize a guy like Wilfork to make this defense even more dominant.


Once again, as far as starters go, NT is the weakest spot on the entire defense. There's no other starter that you could point to and say that you could make a significant upgrade with.
Originally posted by nickbradley:
*** idea:

If we have (4) starter-caliber 5-technique defensive linemen, we can continually rotate them in and out, stunt, and even shift to 2 and 4-man defensive lines. They number of variations is pretty large. This is in contrast to the centralized model of a featured zero-tech nose tackle.

What prevents an NT from moving to 3-4 DE? Baltimore does that with Ngata all the time because he has the size and athletic ability to do both. A guy like Jesse Williams could play both roles for example.


Ultimately, the reality of the situation is that a 3-4 defense needs a good NT, there's no getting round it. If you're lacking in that aspect, teams will run it up the gut on you all day long. You can get used to Seattle slamming the ball down this team's throats without one, having the threat of Lynch running up the middle determining what the defense will do and as a result giving Wilson plenty of time to pick the secondary apart in the pocket.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Jan 19, 2013 at 2:46 PM ]
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Originally posted by Aussie49ah:
Good post and some really insightful commenta .

Like a few here would Rather go NT in the first then wait till the 3rd or 4th to take a guy like Davis bass or Catapano. Both have been very impressive small school guys at the east/west practices.

Both have solid rushing abilities and look stout against the run, look to have high motors and seem eager to learn from all reports. Would be happy having one learn everything from Justin and see what we get. Half the time work ethic ad eagerness to learn is more inportant than talent.

At worst we get an eventual replacement /rotation for raymac and can take a stud next year.

Bass is 6-3 262 is a little small to play 3-4 DE. He might be a good pick for OLB,

Catapano is a little heavier, 270 pounds, but still a bit small.
If you guys want a DT instead of a NT we might as well switch to a 4-3 because your basically saying i choose not to draft a replacement for Sopo. Our run d is good but your asking for trouble by relying an aging mcdonald and smith to hold the line. I promise you shariff floyd would not be a starter either. Nor would he b the first choice sub.
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