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Question for all you Draft Nuts

Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by D-Money:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by Sjceruti:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
I would add Prince as an impact/franchise pick.
Solid Upside would be Kerrigan, Ingram, and Jordan.

I'm no expert but I disagree. I think Prince is in the risky/solid range. I've seen him get beat often and have heard many "experts" and scouts say he's a bit overrated.

What experts? And I disagree about getting beat often. If your referring to the OSU game. That holds no water with me, I've proven in other threads that game is being over-analyzed by posters on this board. Its not as bad of a game as people lead others to believe.

Dude you got a serious man crush on Prince. You don't think he's overrated and you think he's a franchise player??? Come on now man, and yeah during that OSU game "he was that bad"

Man crush? No. Do I think he's the best pure CB in the draft? Yes. In the OSU it was 2 catches and a PI that made him "look bad" and if you watch the film, on the big catch, the SS gave no support on the flea flicker. PP gave how Julio how many catches....7-8? On top of a huge PI when he got torched.

EDIT: Just to solidify my point on Prince being a franchise player:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Franchise Players:
CB Prince Amukamara, Nebraska - He's drawn comparisons to Darelle Revis for a reason. Feared cover man in college, great size, speed, and technique. Being a senior and not possessing blistering speed at the monstrous size Peterson is, is the only reason Prince is not considered the top CB in this draft. All about perceived upside. Prince is an extremely high character guy with a strong work ethic who I just can't see failing in the NFL.

A quote from OTC, who along with MD, AB, and GoFD, I respect more then any of the so called "experts" in the media.
I would take the opinion of those 4 over any Kiper or McShay you want to believe in.

1st off, thanks and Im sure that means alot of the rest too.

Now as for Amukamara, Even though Peterson is the most athletic DB in yrs IMO, i think Amukamara is the most ready, I admit I want Patrick Peterson. But if we get Amukamara I would be fine with it and happy.

Ive come to terms that I want either Peterson, Dareus or Amukamara. Close 4th is Quinn/Miller.

And In no way is amukamara a risk as stated, so I agree with Travisty on this.

Thank you AB. While athletically Peterson is awe-inspiring, I think people are hating on Prince to much for not being Peterson. Almost any other year Prince would be the #1 CB in the draft, but people look at him as he's some second-rate CB when in all reality he'll come here and start Day 1.
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by D-Money:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by Sjceruti:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
I would add Prince as an impact/franchise pick.
Solid Upside would be Kerrigan, Ingram, and Jordan.

I'm no expert but I disagree. I think Prince is in the risky/solid range. I've seen him get beat often and have heard many "experts" and scouts say he's a bit overrated.

What experts? And I disagree about getting beat often. If your referring to the OSU game. That holds no water with me, I've proven in other threads that game is being over-analyzed by posters on this board. Its not as bad of a game as people lead others to believe.

Dude you got a serious man crush on Prince. You don't think he's overrated and you think he's a franchise player??? Come on now man, and yeah during that OSU game "he was that bad"

Man crush? No. Do I think he's the best pure CB in the draft? Yes. In the OSU it was 2 catches and a PI that made him "look bad" and if you watch the film, on the big catch, the SS gave no support on the flea flicker. PP gave how Julio how many catches....7-8? On top of a huge PI when he got torched.

EDIT: Just to solidify my point on Prince being a franchise player:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Franchise Players:
CB Prince Amukamara, Nebraska - He's drawn comparisons to Darelle Revis for a reason. Feared cover man in college, great size, speed, and technique. Being a senior and not possessing blistering speed at the monstrous size Peterson is, is the only reason Prince is not considered the top CB in this draft. All about perceived upside. Prince is an extremely high character guy with a strong work ethic who I just can't see failing in the NFL.

A quote from OTC, who along with MD, AB, and GoFD, I respect more then any of the so called "experts" in the media.
I would take the opinion of those 4 over any Kiper or McShay you want to believe in.

So your opinion is based on 4 other guys opinions?

I'm not a Prince Hater, I just dont want the niners to waste a pick on him at #7 at least trade down once or twice and see if he's still available later. Here is MY opinion/ breakdown of Prince.

Prince-Height/Speed/Weight Ratio is perfect for a corner. Very good corner at defending the run and this is by far his best attribute. Similar to Nate Clements in that he will put a helmet on the ball carrier and not try to arm tackle a guy. Will get sucked in on play action. Good timed speed and football speed. Can stay with a receiver down field but will lose the one on one matchup on a jump ball.Will need over the top help with speedsters though. Does not make a play on the ball as much as he should. A double move will burn him all day. Upside is limited as he is already a good technician, but potential is maxed out. May not be able to exceed the career he had in college. Measurables are off the charts as far as being a leader and student of the game. He'll look good in games when the matchups favor him but will not be the franchise player "you" think he'll be. He will be way overdrafted and hopefully not by us. Do not know where the Revis comparisions started but no way no how. Late teens early 20s value pick.
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by D-Money:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by Sjceruti:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
I would add Prince as an impact/franchise pick.
Solid Upside would be Kerrigan, Ingram, and Jordan.

I'm no expert but I disagree. I think Prince is in the risky/solid range. I've seen him get beat often and have heard many "experts" and scouts say he's a bit overrated.

What experts? And I disagree about getting beat often. If your referring to the OSU game. That holds no water with me, I've proven in other threads that game is being over-analyzed by posters on this board. Its not as bad of a game as people lead others to believe.

Dude you got a serious man crush on Prince. You don't think he's overrated and you think he's a franchise player??? Come on now man, and yeah during that OSU game "he was that bad"

Man crush? No. Do I think he's the best pure CB in the draft? Yes. In the OSU it was 2 catches and a PI that made him "look bad" and if you watch the film, on the big catch, the SS gave no support on the flea flicker. PP gave how Julio how many catches....7-8? On top of a huge PI when he got torched.

EDIT: Just to solidify my point on Prince being a franchise player:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Franchise Players:
CB Prince Amukamara, Nebraska - He's drawn comparisons to Darelle Revis for a reason. Feared cover man in college, great size, speed, and technique. Being a senior and not possessing blistering speed at the monstrous size Peterson is, is the only reason Prince is not considered the top CB in this draft. All about perceived upside. Prince is an extremely high character guy with a strong work ethic who I just can't see failing in the NFL.

A quote from OTC, who along with MD, AB, and GoFD, I respect more then any of the so called "experts" in the media.
I would take the opinion of those 4 over any Kiper or McShay you want to believe in.

1st off, thanks and Im sure that means alot of the rest too.

Now as for Amukamara, Even though Peterson is the most athletic DB in yrs IMO, i think Amukamara is the most ready, I admit I want Patrick Peterson. But if we get Amukamara I would be fine with it and happy.

Ive come to terms that I want either Peterson, Dareus or Amukamara. Close 4th is Quinn/Miller.

And In no way is amukamara a risk as stated, so I agree with Travisty on this.

Thank you AB. While athletically Peterson is awe-inspiring, I think people are hating on Prince to much for not being Peterson. Almost any other year Prince would be the #1 CB in the draft, but people look at him as he's some second-rate CB when in all reality he'll come here and start Day 1.

exactly, Peterson has awesome athleticism, and in any other year we would be talking of Prince as the top CB, but people are more enamored by upside, myself too. But Honestly, I have them like 1a and 1b, there that close. But both are top 5 worthy IMO. To go with Dareus, Fairley and Bowers. Then AJ Green and Julio would round out my top 7 prospects.

Then Von, Quinn, etc.....
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
For anyone to answer, whether its OTC, MD, Ghost or a regular poster, who are your guys who u think are franchise players. Or at the very least Impact players, and the potential risks.

Mine:

My 3 Impact/Franchise Players;

LSU CB Patrick Peterson
Alabama DT Marcell Dareus
Georgia WR A.J. Green

Players with tons of upside, just unsure of them.

UNC OLB Robert Quinn
TX A&M OLB Von Miller

And then risky picks

Mizzou QB Blaine Gabbert
Auburn QB Cam Newton
Auburn DT Nick Fairley
Clemson DE Da'Quan Bowers

I have built my board based on impact. Right now, here is how I would rank the best:
1) AJ Green- Elite WR who is a game changer. Not at the level of Calvin Johnson, but a Pro-Bowl player at the next level.
2) Patrick Peterson- Elite as a CB. Keep the weight down, young man. I think he is a big drop-off as a safety. Another future Pro-Bowler.
3) Von Miller- The system is going to make or break Miller. Better than Aaron Curry coming out of college, but really needs a 3-4 alignment to maximize his skills. If he keeps his weight up, I see a Pro-Bowl spot for him in a 3-4.
4) Marcel Dareus- Not at Suh's level last year, but could be a dominant 3-4 NT if put in that position. Probably will be stuck in Denver, so grab the oxygen mask. Potential Pro-Bowler if things fall his way.
5) JJ Watt- He is the best 3-4 DE in this draft class, but he needs to avoid a 4-3 team. I think he could easily be a Pro-Bowler if put in the right scheme. I believe he is the best athlete over 275 pounds in this draft, and he is only going to get better.
6) Blaine Gabbert- Is he Andrew Luck? No! But is he the best QB in this class? Yes, and it is not close. Once again, scheme will be huge. Carolina or Buffalo is going to take him, and there is no way he is dropping below Cincinnati at 4. Smart, great arm, just needs work. Pro-Bowler? Doubtful. Solid franchise QB for a baker's dozen years? Yes.
7) Ryan Williams- Shaking up my RB board over the last month, I think Williams is going to be special at the next level. I'm not sure for how many years, but his explosiveness and ability to break big runs is going to be fun to watch. I'd grade him above Gabbert, except for the length of career (how many good years can RB's rack up).

The guys that are risky to me:
Cam Newton- boom or bust. I actually think he will be decent in this league. He's going to make a lot of people scream in joy one minute and horror the next, but there is no doubt he is going to be exciting.

Robert Quinn- A mistake for a 3-4 team. He needs to have his hand on the ground, all the time. Although the tumor has not given him problems thus far, it is a risk for me.

Nick Fairley- I see bust written all over him. I don't see much effort at the next level, which is a total waste of talent. Wouldn't be on my board. He's strictly a 4-3 undertackle.

Bowers- Also, not on my board. Strictly a 4-3 DE. The knee is a concern, but his size is another. If he gets to 285 or 290 lbs., what is he going to do? I don't see a solid future in the NFL.

All QB's are risky. The reason I grade Ponder and Mallett lower than expected on my best boards is in regards to health factors. I think Ponder, a terrific college QB, may be injury prone (some guys simply are not freaks who escape injury), and Mallett is way too stationary. He is going to get killed in the NFL.

Guys with upside? Corey Liuget, Derek Sherrod (the top LT on my board), Torrey Smith (better than Julio Jones), Phil Taylor (will be a 15 year toilet clogger in the NFL).
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Apr 1, 2011 at 7:50 PM ]
I'm definitely NOT an expert but I do watch a fair amount of college ball so here it goes. The terms are very fluid and w/out specific definition. "Franchise Player" is nebulous at best. Ed Reed is GREAT but Ravens have been to only one SBowl. P Manning is GREAT and Colts would never get to SB w/out him. So I try to clarify a little what I mean by my selections.

Franchise POSSIBILITY [Consistently makes game changing contributions]

P Peterson LSU - CB
V Miller TX A&M - OLB

Impact POSSIBILITY [Other teams MUST game plan for them and they CONSISTENTLY out perform their counterparts]

AJ Green GA - WR
J Jones AL - WR
Tyron Smith USC - OT
M Pouncy FL - G/C
JJ Watt Wisconsin - DE/OLB [Reminds me of Justin Smith]
M Austin NC - DT [I think he could be the star of this draft]
M Dareus AL - DT
P Amukamara Nebraska - CB

Solid All Pro POSSIBILITY [Every year they stand out from their peers]

D Watkins Baylor - G
P Taylor Baylor - NT
J Houston GA - OLB
B Harris Miami - CB

BUSTS [Over-rated and will not be factors 2-3 years into the NFL]

Cam Newton Auburn - QB [Reminds me of Vince Young]
N Solder CO - OT
N Fairley Auburn - DT [Reminds me of Allen Branch]

STEALS [I mean they will have highly productive careers and be big contributors to their teams like London Fletcher, Vrabel, Ray Brown, Steve Wallace, Jesse Sapoulo]

A Dalton TCU - QB [I feel he'll have the best career of all QB in draft]
T Toliver LSU - WR [Needs quality coaching to get to next level]
M Cannon TCU - RG [Very athletic for a very big man]
S Friday VTech - [I see as an OLB]
M Parker Richmond - DT [This guy impresses me]
L Wilson Conn - OLB
J Jarrett Temple - S
A Henery Nebraska - K/Punter [Will be reliable and around for a long time]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
For anyone to answer, whether its OTC, MD, Ghost or a regular poster, who are your guys who u think are franchise players. Or at the very least Impact players, and the potential risks.

Mine:

My 3 Impact/Franchise Players;

LSU CB Patrick Peterson
Alabama DT Marcell Dareus
Georgia WR A.J. Green

Players with tons of upside, just unsure of them.

UNC OLB Robert Quinn
TX A&M OLB Von Miller

And then risky picks

Mizzou QB Blaine Gabbert
Auburn QB Cam Newton
Auburn DT Nick Fairley
Clemson DE Da'Quan Bowers

I have built my board based on impact. Right now, here is how I would rank the best:
1) AJ Green- Elite WR who is a game changer. Not at the level of Calvin Johnson, but a Pro-Bowl player at the next level.
2) Patrick Peterson- Elite as a CB. Keep the weight down, young man. I think he is a big drop-off as a safety. Another future Pro-Bowler.
3) Von Miller- The system is going to make or break Miller. Better than Aaron Curry coming out of college, but really needs a 3-4 alignment to maximize his skills. If he keeps his weight up, I see a Pro-Bowl spot for him in a 3-4.
4) Marcel Dareus- Not at Suh's level last year, but could be a dominant 3-4 NT if put in that position. Probably will be stuck in Denver, so grab the oxygen mask. Potential Pro-Bowler if things fall his way.
5) JJ Watt- He is the best 3-4 DE in this draft class, but he needs to avoid a 4-3 team. I think he could easily be a Pro-Bowler if put in the right scheme. I believe he is the best athlete over 275 pounds in this draft, and he is only going to get better.
6) Blaine Gabbert- Is he Andrew Luck? No! But is he the best QB in this class? Yes, and it is not close. Once again, scheme will be huge. Carolina or Buffalo is going to take him, and there is no way he is dropping below Cincinnati at 4. Smart, great arm, just needs work. Pro-Bowler? Doubtful. Solid franchise QB for a baker's dozen years? Yes.
7) Ryan Williams- Shaking up my RB board over the last month, I think Williams is going to be special at the next level. I'm not sure for how many years, but his explosiveness and ability to break big runs is going to be fun to watch. I'd grade him above Gabbert, except for the length of career (how many good years can RB's rack up).

The guys that are risky to me:
Cam Newton- boom or bust. I actually think he will be decent in this league. He's going to make a lot of people scream in joy one minute and horror the next, but there is no doubt he is going to be exciting.

Robert Quinn- A mistake for a 3-4 team. He needs to have his hand on the ground, all the time. Although the tumor has not given him problems thus far, it is a risk for me.

Nick Fairley- I see bust written all over him. I don't see much effort at the next level, which is a total waste of talent. Wouldn't be on my board. He's strictly a 4-3 undertackle.

Bowers- Also, not on my board. Strictly a 4-3 DE. The knee is a concern, but his size is another. If he gets to 285 or 290 lbs., what is he going to do? I don't see a solid future in the NFL.

All QB's are risky. The reason I grade Ponder and Mallett lower than expected on my best boards is in regards to health factors. I think Ponder, a terrific college QB, may be injury prone (some guys simply are not freaks who escape injury), and Mallett is way too stationary. He is going to get killed in the NFL.

Guys with upside? Corey Liuget, Derek Sherrod (the top LT on my board), Torrey Smith (better than Julio Jones), Phil Taylor (will be a 15 year toilet clogger in the NFL).

Brother, I'm right there with you. I think Sherrod will turn out to be one of the most dominant tackles from this draft. Just watching him play, I saw things that I didn't see with the other tackles.

In their bowl game? My goodness, he made the opposing players just look absolutely helpless. It was as if he was playing against 50 lb. children the way he punished opposing DL that day. I didn't see this kind of dominance consistently with the other tackles of this class.

I do think Tyron Smith has the most potential, but almost no LT experience bothers me. Castonzo is the only other one I might say could give the others a run for their money in the race to being the next great LT. Very quick feet and seems to be pretty technically sound.

I am a fan of Carimi as well, but there are certain systems he'd be better fit for than others.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
For anyone to answer, whether its OTC, MD, Ghost or a regular poster, who are your guys who u think are franchise players. Or at the very least Impact players, and the potential risks.

Mine:

My 3 Impact/Franchise Players;

LSU CB Patrick Peterson
Alabama DT Marcell Dareus
Georgia WR A.J. Green

Players with tons of upside, just unsure of them.

UNC OLB Robert Quinn
TX A&M OLB Von Miller

And then risky picks

Mizzou QB Blaine Gabbert
Auburn QB Cam Newton
Auburn DT Nick Fairley
Clemson DE Da'Quan Bowers

I have built my board based on impact. Right now, here is how I would rank the best:
1) AJ Green- Elite WR who is a game changer. Not at the level of Calvin Johnson, but a Pro-Bowl player at the next level.
2) Patrick Peterson- Elite as a CB. Keep the weight down, young man. I think he is a big drop-off as a safety. Another future Pro-Bowler.
3) Von Miller- The system is going to make or break Miller. Better than Aaron Curry coming out of college, but really needs a 3-4 alignment to maximize his skills. If he keeps his weight up, I see a Pro-Bowl spot for him in a 3-4.
4) Marcel Dareus- Not at Suh's level last year, but could be a dominant 3-4 NT if put in that position. Probably will be stuck in Denver, so grab the oxygen mask. Potential Pro-Bowler if things fall his way.
5) JJ Watt- He is the best 3-4 DE in this draft class, but he needs to avoid a 4-3 team. I think he could easily be a Pro-Bowler if put in the right scheme. I believe he is the best athlete over 275 pounds in this draft, and he is only going to get better.
6) Blaine Gabbert- Is he Andrew Luck? No! But is he the best QB in this class? Yes, and it is not close. Once again, scheme will be huge. Carolina or Buffalo is going to take him, and there is no way he is dropping below Cincinnati at 4. Smart, great arm, just needs work. Pro-Bowler? Doubtful. Solid franchise QB for a baker's dozen years? Yes.
7) Ryan Williams- Shaking up my RB board over the last month, I think Williams is going to be special at the next level. I'm not sure for how many years, but his explosiveness and ability to break big runs is going to be fun to watch. I'd grade him above Gabbert, except for the length of career (how many good years can RB's rack up).

The guys that are risky to me:
Cam Newton- boom or bust. I actually think he will be decent in this league. He's going to make a lot of people scream in joy one minute and horror the next, but there is no doubt he is going to be exciting.

Robert Quinn- A mistake for a 3-4 team. He needs to have his hand on the ground, all the time. Although the tumor has not given him problems thus far, it is a risk for me.

Nick Fairley- I see bust written all over him. I don't see much effort at the next level, which is a total waste of talent. Wouldn't be on my board. He's strictly a 4-3 undertackle.

Bowers- Also, not on my board. Strictly a 4-3 DE. The knee is a concern, but his size is another. If he gets to 285 or 290 lbs., what is he going to do? I don't see a solid future in the NFL.

All QB's are risky. The reason I grade Ponder and Mallett lower than expected on my best boards is in regards to health factors. I think Ponder, a terrific college QB, may be injury prone (some guys simply are not freaks who escape injury), and Mallett is way too stationary. He is going to get killed in the NFL.

Guys with upside? Corey Liuget, Derek Sherrod (the top LT on my board), Torrey Smith (better than Julio Jones), Phil Taylor (will be a 15 year toilet clogger in the NFL).

Brother, I'm right there with you. I think Sherrod will turn out to be one of the most dominant tackles from this draft. Just watching him play, I saw things that I didn't see with the other tackles.

In their bowl game? My goodness, he made the opposing players just look absolutely helpless. It was as if he was playing against 50 lb. children the way he punished opposing DL that day. I didn't see this kind of dominance consistently with the other tackles of this class.

I do think Tyron Smith has the most potential, but almost no LT experience bothers me. Castonzo is the only other one I might say could give the others a run for their money in the race to being the next great LT. Very quick feet and seems to be pretty technically sound.

I am a fan of Carimi as well, but there are certain systems he'd be better fit for than others.

I think Carimi ends up the best RT in the draft. Wisconsin OL are coached very well, and usually are ready to go in the NFL early on. I'd lay heavy money on Andy Reid pulling the trigger at 23. Agree with Smith and no LT experience. Risky pick in that regard. Sherrod to the Colts makes a ton of sense to me. I think they like him.

Would like to hear your thoughts on Danny Watkins' Senior Bowl game performance. According to reports, he had a great practice week (which is most important), but after the first series of the Senior Bowl game (which was solid), I thought he graded REALLY LOW, both at right and left guard. There is so much chatter about his rising prospects, but I am wondering if anyone watched this game.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Apr 2, 2011 at 8:54 PM ]
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by Sjceruti:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
I would add Prince as an impact/franchise pick.
Solid Upside would be Kerrigan, Ingram, and Jordan.

I'm no expert but I disagree. I think Prince is in the risky/solid range. I've seen him get beat often and have heard many "experts" and scouts say he's a bit overrated.

What experts? And I disagree about getting beat often. If your referring to the OSU game. That holds no water with me, I've proven in other threads that game is being over-analyzed by posters on this board. Its not as bad of a game as people lead others to believe.

That is one of the reasons I like him. In that game he got beat in the first half, but adjusted in the second half. what CB hasn't been burned? Look at the All Pros that have been burnt-by the Jerry Rice? We all have our bad hair days. Didn't Harbaugh say its hard to judge when YOU don't know what they were being asked to do? Even if you watch the tape. You have to see what they do when you ask them to do what you want in your scheme!
When you say franchise player that should mean you would slap the franchise tag on him.

Then you have those that will be Pro Bowl players at least 2-3 times.

Franchise
PP
VM

Pro Bowl
Dareus
PA

Everybody else-depends who drafts them.

My Chris Speilmen pick- Kerrigan. At the Senior Bowl I forgot which OT that is expected to go in the first, said Kerrigan gave him the hardest time in one on one drills. Plus, like speilman-he produced in college, not a one hit wonder.
I took the top 20 prospects according to the Great Blue North report and broke them down.

Impact/franchise players:
Patrick Peterson - Closest thing to a sure thing in the draft
AJ Green

Huge upside but unsure:
Von Miller - Depends on what scheme he plays in
Robert Quinn
Nick Fairley
Da'Quan Bowers
Tyron Smith
Corey Liuget - Wild card on the d-line
Julio Jones
Mark Ingram - the next Emmitt Smith?

Risky picks:
Cam Newton
Blaine Gabbert
Ryan Mallett
Jake Locker
Aldon Smith
Nate Solder

Solid, but probably not spectacular:
Marcell Dareus
Cam Jordan
Prince Amukamara
JJ Watt
Mike Pouncey
Adrian Clayborn