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Mock Mock, SWAGG'S HERE

Originally posted by jojomellon:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Why in the world would Tampa take yet another DT???
Minny needs a NT to replace pat Williams, not another 3 technique when that is where Kevin Williams players.
2 Guards being taken in the teens is unfathomable.

Tampa has the 5th worst rush d in the nfl. And the 3rd fewest sacks. Duh.

Williams wall is getting old. Marcell Dareus can play ANYWHERE on the line. He's a freakin stud. Could go #2 overall. He'd be perfect inside for them. Heck even LDE to replace Edwards.

And 2 interior lineman were taken 17 and 18 last year... Iupati and Pouncey... so maybe we have different definitions of unfathomable.

so because their ROOKIE DTs didnt immediately improve their rush D, theyre just going to draft yet another? Itd be like a team taking a QB number 1 overall, the player struggling, so they take another QB in the first round the year after. Itd be retarded. Besides, DE plays a huge part in run defense as well and the cupboard is absolutely bare for the Bucs at the position, and incidentally, the 1st round has numerous DE prospects for them to check out. It just makes zero sense to pick two DT's in the first 34 picks and then turn around and take another in the first. Unless you think the Bucs are going to be the Detroit Lions of DTs. Maybe????

There is a lot of talk about them switching to a 3-4 D to create more pressure on the qb. They have DE's that are athletic enough to cover and are more suited to rush the pass from a 2 point stance as opposed to having their hand in the dirt. Mccoy and price on the ends and marvin austin in the NT position.
uhhhhh, show me one single article mentioning the Bucs going to a 4-3. Morris is a tampa 2 guy through and through. I havent heard that all and i pay attention to every bit of NFL news i can get my hands on

Apparently not enough...fella

That article does nothing bu reinforce my points. They need a pass rush, not more DT's. They can talk about a 'hybrid' all they want but they just spent 2 high picks on DT's and have ZERO pass rush. So you expect them to fix that by picking an interior linemen despite the middle of the 1st round being loaded with pass rushing DE's..... riiiiiiiiiiight.

Look bruh, you were wrong about them not considering a 34D. Its cool. Don't try and backpedal. You got SWAGG'd. It happens to everyone at some point.

But seriously, you can't play a 34 w/o a superior NT. Austin is just that. He can anchor, penetrate, and is a 3 down player. Raheem also seems pretty pumped about the DE's and LB's he has being able to rush the passer. I'm sure they COULD go OLB like Ayers or Smith, but they also could very well go NT. Especially if they're concerned about Prices hip being a long term problem.

I like how 'playing a 3-4 look once in a while' has in your mind TB becoming a full fledged 3-4 team despite having zero 3-4 OLBs to make that work. They still have small undersize 4-3 tampa 2 linebackers and draft 2 classic tampa 2 DTs last year, a space eating NT and a penetrating 3 technique in McCoy. Every 4-3 team shows looks of a 3-4 now and then, doesnt change theyr base offense. Once again, what pass rushers do the Bucs have? Ill wait.

If the Bucs draft a DT and not a DE in this draft, I will eat my shoe. It would make zero sense. You're just grasping at straws, changing TB's entire defensive philosophy in order to justify you forgetting the insane investment they made in DT's last year and the fact they have zero pass rushers.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-B.php
http://walterfootball.com/draft2011_1.php


http://www.pewterreport.com
hey, lets even quote that website that you used to prove that the Bucs are now the new Steelers running a 3-4, who do they have listed in their mock? "20. Tampa Bay Buccaneers- Georgia OLB/DE Justin Houston
Houston played defensive end for years, and is a deadly pass rusher. The Bucs need that more than anything. "

I mean that report you posted didnt even mention adding a lineman, it was all about adding a speed rusher. It makes no sense. At all. Its about going to a 3 man front for PASS RUSHING SITUATIONS. Which most 3-4 teams do. You dont need a 350lb NT for 3rd down pass rushing 3 man fronts. Those guys usually come out of the game in those situations.

You basically cited an article that you had a problem comprehending what the point of it was. Misquoting it in your mind into thinking (durrrrr, the bucs are now a 3-4, better draft a new tackle), even though the article was about the 3-4 as a pass rushing formation, similar to many 4-3 teams, in which those 3 down lineman are pass rushing specialists, not spacing eating NTs,. You dont rush the passer with a 350 DT. You usually move an oversized DE into the middle there in that situation (think Justin Tuck). a DE that the bucs dont have. Point. Made.

End game.

A. Put down the Red Bull.

B. Marvin Austin is nowhere near 350lbs.

C. He's a penetrator and an anchor. Not just a space eating NT. He doesn't come off the field because he plays both pass and run. You've clearly never seen him play or you'd know this.

D. You can't rush the pass w/ just 2 OLB's. OLB's are nothing w/o the guys up front.

E. Raheem also likes the idea of playing the 3-3-5. That would best be played w/ 3 stout penetrating and anchoring type DT's. Hmm. Price-Austin-Mccoy.

F. The article doesn't need to mention anything about adding a NT. I'm smart enough, so are the bucs, to know you need a stud NT like Austin to be able to switch from 4-3 to 3-4 to 3-3-5. It's all about scheming and thats something that Raheem truly excels at doing.

G. What's your deal?
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by jojomellon:
Why in the world would Tampa take yet another DT???
Minny needs a NT to replace pat Williams, not another 3 technique when that is where Kevin Williams players.
2 Guards being taken in the teens is unfathomable.

Tampa has the 5th worst rush d in the nfl. And the 3rd fewest sacks. Duh.

Williams wall is getting old. Marcell Dareus can play ANYWHERE on the line. He's a freakin stud. Could go #2 overall. He'd be perfect inside for them. Heck even LDE to replace Edwards.

And 2 interior lineman were taken 17 and 18 last year... Iupati and Pouncey... so maybe we have different definitions of unfathomable.

so because their ROOKIE DTs didnt immediately improve their rush D, theyre just going to draft yet another? Itd be like a team taking a QB number 1 overall, the player struggling, so they take another QB in the first round the year after. Itd be retarded. Besides, DE plays a huge part in run defense as well and the cupboard is absolutely bare for the Bucs at the position, and incidentally, the 1st round has numerous DE prospects for them to check out. It just makes zero sense to pick two DT's in the first 34 picks and then turn around and take another in the first. Unless you think the Bucs are going to be the Detroit Lions of DTs. Maybe????

There is a lot of talk about them switching to a 3-4 D to create more pressure on the qb. They have DE's that are athletic enough to cover and are more suited to rush the pass from a 2 point stance as opposed to having their hand in the dirt. Mccoy and price on the ends and marvin austin in the NT position.
uhhhhh, show me one single article mentioning the Bucs going to a 4-3. Morris is a tampa 2 guy through and through. I havent heard that all and i pay attention to every bit of NFL news i can get my hands on

Apparently not enough...fella

That article does nothing bu reinforce my points. They need a pass rush, not more DT's. They can talk about a 'hybrid' all they want but they just spent 2 high picks on DT's and have ZERO pass rush. So you expect them to fix that by picking an interior linemen despite the middle of the 1st round being loaded with pass rushing DE's..... riiiiiiiiiiight.

Look bruh, you were wrong about them not considering a 34D. Its cool. Don't try and backpedal. You got SWAGG'd. It happens to everyone at some point.

But seriously, you can't play a 34 w/o a superior NT. Austin is just that. He can anchor, penetrate, and is a 3 down player. Raheem also seems pretty pumped about the DE's and LB's he has being able to rush the passer. I'm sure they COULD go OLB like Ayers or Smith, but they also could very well go NT. Especially if they're concerned about Prices hip being a long term problem.

I like how 'playing a 3-4 look once in a while' has in your mind TB becoming a full fledged 3-4 team despite having zero 3-4 OLBs to make that work. They still have small undersize 4-3 tampa 2 linebackers and draft 2 classic tampa 2 DTs last year, a space eating NT and a penetrating 3 technique in McCoy. Every 4-3 team shows looks of a 3-4 now and then, doesnt change theyr base offense. Once again, what pass rushers do the Bucs have? Ill wait.

If the Bucs draft a DT and not a DE in this draft, I will eat my shoe. It would make zero sense. You're just grasping at straws, changing TB's entire defensive philosophy in order to justify you forgetting the insane investment they made in DT's last year and the fact they have zero pass rushers.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-B.php
http://walterfootball.com/draft2011_1.php


http://www.pewterreport.com
hey, lets even quote that website that you used to prove that the Bucs are now the new Steelers running a 3-4, who do they have listed in their mock? "20. Tampa Bay Buccaneers- Georgia OLB/DE Justin Houston
Houston played defensive end for years, and is a deadly pass rusher. The Bucs need that more than anything. "

I mean that report you posted didnt even mention adding a lineman, it was all about adding a speed rusher. It makes no sense. At all. Its about going to a 3 man front for PASS RUSHING SITUATIONS. Which most 3-4 teams do. You dont need a 350lb NT for 3rd down pass rushing 3 man fronts. Those guys usually come out of the game in those situations.

You basically cited an article that you had a problem comprehending what the point of it was. Misquoting it in your mind into thinking (durrrrr, the bucs are now a 3-4, better draft a new tackle), even though the article was about the 3-4 as a pass rushing formation, similar to many 4-3 teams, in which those 3 down lineman are pass rushing specialists, not spacing eating NTs,. You dont rush the passer with a 350 DT. You usually move an oversized DE into the middle there in that situation (think Justin Tuck). a DE that the bucs dont have. Point. Made.

End game.

A. Put down the Red Bull.

B. Marvin Austin is nowhere near 350lbs.

C. He's a penetrator and an anchor. Not just a space eating NT. He doesn't come off the field because he plays both pass and run. You've clearly never seen him play or you'd know this.

D. You can't rush the pass w/ just 2 OLB's. OLB's are nothing w/o the guys up front.

E. Raheem also likes the idea of playing the 3-3-5. That would best be played w/ 3 stout penetrating and anchoring type DT's. Hmm. Price-Austin-Mccoy.

F. The article doesn't need to mention anything about adding a NT. I'm smart enough, so are the bucs, to know you need a stud NT like Austin to be able to switch from 4-3 to 3-4 to 3-3-5. It's all about scheming and thats something that Raheem truly excels at doing.

G. What's your deal?

My deal is they drafted two DT's last year, one a nose, one a three technique, in the first 35 picks. Thats a major investment. The 3-3-5 is strictly a nickel formation. You dont burn yet another first round pick on a DT just because you wanna play a 3-3-5 a few times a game in long passing situations. DE is a million times bigger need thats all, which every article you cited agreed with me about. Oh sure itd be nice o have 10 DTs on your team to be 'stout against the run', but itd be retarded to do so while ignoring the glaring need of pass rush. You could have Haloti Ngata, Vince Wilfork and Terrence Cody on your 3 man line but it wouldnt make a ton of difference in the pass rush if you dont have dick outside of them with speed to rush the passer, which is exactly what the case is here. There are so many damn 4-3DE pass rushers this year in the first round that just make so much sense for a team like the Bucs and yet they take,,,,, a position they just filled last year. Its dumb. You can reply with whatever gibberish to say 'but but but just imagive 3 DTs on the line together' in 2 months you can eat crow when they draft a DE. Your idea makes zero sense in the real world. Maybe in madden you can do some cool auto substitutions with nothing but DTs on the line of scrimmage but the real world dictates that you need, you know, real pass rushers. TB has none, perhaps the worst in all of the NFL. So ya, not addressing that need would be very smart,.


"D. You can't rush the pass w/ just 2 OLB's. OLB's are nothing w/o the guys up front" they have the guys up front. They drafted two last year. DTs arent the source of pass pressure, DE's are. They have none. How much simpler can I make this for you?

Case in point, New England had Ron Brace, Wilfork, gerard Warren, Myron Rolle, Brandon Deaderick. Nothing but meaty, huge guys on their 3 man line. Their pass rush? NON existent, why? They didnt have dick at OLB/pass rushing DE.

Case in point. And again, you dont need a big NT in a 3-3-5 because thats strictly a nickel formation, when you can put a speed rusher at that inside spot on the line, just like the Eagles and Giants do. You usually want nothing BUT pass rushers on that 3 man line defending the pass. probably McCoy in the middle and 2 pass rushing DE's. OOps, they dont have any pass rushing Des though. nahhh, im sure your idea would work though....

[ Edited by jojomellon on Feb 12, 2011 at 02:27:47 ]
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by al49erfan:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
Originally posted by niner4life21:
Why would we have to trade up for Ponder when guys like Gabbert, Mallett and Locker are all on the board? I don't understand. You say that you look at the draft through the NFL's eyes, not yours, but you do know that Gabbert, Mallett and Locker are all rated and ranked higher than Ponder, right?

You might think Ponder will be better than them, just like I do. But that's not what teams like Buffalo, Carolina, Cincy and Arizona will be thinking.

I think the NFL looks at Ponder through his entire 4 years at FSU. Not just his senior year (which he made up for during the Sr. Bowl) in which he got hurt. He's checking out medically. Prior to the 2010 season Ponder was considered one of if not the best QB prospects coming out. NFL teams are smart enough to know that just because of 1 bad year due to injury they should remove him from their top lists once he's healthy.

I like Mallett a lot. Unfortunately, like Clausen, i think he drops due to his off the field/leadership issues. Gabbert, well lets just be honest, nobody knew who he was last year. And if you did, you def didn't think he was a 1st round pick kind of guy. He REGRESSED in his Jr year and teams rarely like to take a first round pick on a guy who REGRESSED. Locker has regressed B2B years. He's def not going in the first.

I don't think you would be consistent in downgrading Gabbert for not knowing who he was last year, but then having Cam Newton as a top ten pick. There may be other arguments you present, but this one is not strong.

When prospective underclassmen think about joining the draft, they go through a pre-draft grading by NFL Draft Advisory Committee. Gabbert sent his in for evaluation. I just don't see how he could have walked away from Columbia with another year of eligibility if he wasn't graded a high first rounder.

As for Ponder, I know you think he will be an excellent pro, but you have to concede that there are a number of factors that limit his ceiling, including a lack of a strong arm, injury history, and drop in productivity from his junior year. He's more of a system, WCO offense player, and has a limited upside. Now, he may surprise and be better than the majority of the eligible QB's. But, GM's, scouts, coaches are going to see a huge difference in the upside between a Ponder and players like Newton and Gabbert.

You are probably right about Mallett dropping over character/leadership concerns.

Cam Newton won the freakin Heisman and a national title. Gabbert REGRESSED, drastically, from his sophomore year. Totally different situations.

You may be onto something with the draft advisory board deal and gabbert, but you have to keep in mind that's an advisory board, not 32 nfl gm's. Gm's that haven't even put together their big boards yet. Gm's that don't know what the cba holds. That same advisory board gave jimmy clausen a high first round grade. And colt mccoy and 2nd round grade. Brady quinn a top 10 grade. See where i'm going with this MD? Here's also a thought. Maybe, just maybe Gabbert and his people realize that this class of qb's is not very good. They also realize, like myself, that Gabbert is regressing. That they don't want a Jake Locker type of situation to happen. Perhaps. Pure speculation. But entirely possible.



Also, after watching this clip i'll thank you kindly for retracting your arm strength comment made about Ponder.

Cheers

When you stated "last year", I believed you were referring to the 2009 college year. But, it doesn't really matter. Gabbert may not have made huge headlines in 2010, since Missouri was not in the hunt for a national championship, but prospects are not invisible to scouts, coaches and GM's even if the common sports fan does not know who they are. This is not a popularity contest. Gabbert was a top prospect going into this year, and coming out of this year by those who run drafts.

As for the Draft Advisory Committee, you are incorrect on your statement that it is not made up of NFL GM's. The College Advisory Committee is comprised of 12 general managers/personnel directors of NFL clubs and the directors
of the NFL’s two scouting combines. You may refer to the attachment, or do a Wiki search.

People who make up the Draft Advisory Committee

As for the Draft Advisory Committee's grades for Clausen, Quinn, and
McCoy, let's go one by one: Clausen fell in the draft more to character/leadership concerns than talent. The Advisory Committee, I believe, does not take these issues into account, simply the level of talent. Quinn dropped about a half round, and McCoy about a half round. Now, is the Draft Advisory Board perfect? No. But, they are generally the most reliable source for players, coaches, scouts, GM's and player personnel director. Perfection is not the issue. It is reliability, and consistency.

Thanks for the link. Very informative. But i'm a little confused.

It says that the Draft Advisory Committee's "evaluation is non-binding and does not guarantee or assure a specific round, but it does provide an underclassman with an unbiased opinion of where they may stand in the draft. The College Advisory Committee is a method where knowledgeable people, with no financial interest in the matter, can give a student-athlete an informed assessment of his
draft chances."

My question is, if it is made up of gm's and personnel directors how could they possibly give an unbiased opinion? Also they DO have a TON of financial interest in the matter. It's kind of contradicting, no?

Furthermore, "A representative of the commissioners’ staff will respond to the involved player, and the NFL and the player are to keep the evaluation confidential."

SO, if it's confidential, then that means that NONE of us except those 2 parties know what round the committee gave them.

There appears to be a conflict of interest for GM's and Player Personnel Directors to say there is no financial interest and an create an unbiased opinion when they ultimately draft players. However, the league hand picks these committee members, and I think the integrity of the members is closely checked before they are chosen.

It is true that nobody, except for the committee and the player is supposed to know the final grade given by the committee. However, players usually reveal the information out to friends, to agents, and then it spreads quickly. The same rule applies to the Wonderlic test, in which the test proctors, player and clubs are the only ones privy to the information. However, every year, nearly every player's number is revealed.

Cheers.

I'd like the NFL to explain a little more about this committee. Like, how do you select these people? Do they apply? What if they get fired/retire? Why these people and not others? Maybe they're not even current gm's and personnel people? ETC. It's an imperfect system.

REGARDLESS

I'm still waiting for you to formally retract your Christian Ponder lacks arm strength comment. The clip in this thread is not an optical illusion. You must submit.

Im not MD by my only comment about that highlight throw you are showing when questions come up about ponders armstrength is that throw was it was vs South Florida. That game happened in 2009 5 weeks before the clemson game in which Ponder Spereated his throwing arm shoulder, then in 2010 he missed time due to an elbow injury that required two surgeries.

So that throw happened before all the injuries, if he can still do that great but i just dont think you can have the same strength with both those injuries.

Injuries take time to heal. He proved at the Sr. Bowl he was healthy. He made all the throws. By the time the combine, draft, and camps roll around he'll be even healthier and further removed from the injuries.

Here's Rob Rang's assessment of Ponder:

Arm Strength: Doesn't own a Matthew Stafford-type howitzer, but has plenty of arm strength to make every NFL throw. Good zip on underneath routes; showcasing enough drive to push the ball through tight windows for the quick slant. Good timing and accuracy make up for a lack of a dominant arm for the deep-out. Effective deep-ball thrower; able to launch the ball 50-plus yards with velocity and trajectory.

That throw on the clip is somewhere between 45-50 yards. That's plenty of arm for the WCO. I also like his elusiveness on the play. He's probably my favorite QB this year. The only thing is the injuries. Was this clip before or after the surgeries? Who knows maybe the college injuries aren't such deal. Remember, Frank Gore had most of his college career derailed by injury, but has been relatively healthy in the pros(exept for some minor stuff here and there). I kind of see Ponder developing into a Matt Hasselbeck type player. I hope we get him, as the potential next Matt Hasselbeck isn't too bad if you ask me.
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