There are 68 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

FCUK Robert Quinn

Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by SolRebe1:
Is it fair to compare this big physical freak pass rusher to another another projected top 10 pick a years back....


Vernon Goldston????

quinn is a better suited for 3-4 then him (and can also play 4-3)

also quinn has a good attitude and has an amazing motor

What makes Quinn better suited? Gholston went to OSU as a LB first then moved to DE, he's faster, stronger, had experience dropping into coverage some, and was more productive. Plus there's a large community of people who think Quinn is better suited for the 4-3, his HC Butch Davis included in that group.
So what exactly shows he "better suited for the 3-4" then Gholston?

For one, I don't think Vernon Gholston had the necessary insticts to play the game. He could never just react to what was going on around him. He had to be told what to do, and he often looked lost.


Gholston's draft analysis doesn't think so:

http://www.kffl.com/article.php/87797/512?printarticle=1
Quote:
On the field, Gholston was one of the most feared pass-rushers in the game last season, demonstrating a diverse array of moves to get to the quarterback and not just relying on straight bull or speed rushes. Despite his size he was able to engage and anchor against most offensive linemen, though that may prove more difficult at the next level, and he is not afraid to go one-on-one with larger blockers. He plays with a good motor and is adept at anticipating the play.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/vernon-gholston?id=756#tabs:tab-analysis
Quote:
...Shows the effort to impact the play even if he doesn't make the tackle...Plays with a high motor and shows a natural feel for the game, as he continues to improve his ability to anticipate and jump the play...Self-starter with a great passion for the game and is a hard worker in the training room...While very confident in his ability, he is also a humble character with no off-field issues...

I personally think the Robert Quinn is a "Vernon Gholston" in waiting. He doesn't impress me. He's not elite in anything he does. Has a medical red flag, hasn't played in a year, and when he did play wasn't as "wow" inspiring as most posters here think he is.
You all compare him to DeMarcus Ware, but Ware was actually productive in college, unlike Quinn, and Ware was still projected to go in the Late 1st-Early 2nd Rd by S.I. and other draft publications. And in fact, Jerry Jones had to overrule Parcells in drafting Ware. Parcells wanted Marcus Spears at #11. I wouldn't touch Quinn til later in the 1st Rd. He has the biggest bust possibility of any player that's been discussed at #7. I still don't see what all you "Quinn Bandwagon Riders" see in him. This is the NFL, not the NBA where potential gets drafted before production. Potential players are supposed to be drafted later in the draft. Productive players are supposed to go first.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
“I do believe that he can be a good, or perhaps even very good, 3-4 rush linebacker,” CBS Sports draft analyst Rob Rang said. “But I believe he could be a Pro Bowl defensive end. That's where I see him as an ideal fit in the NFL.”

This is the type of comment that worries me at times but if the 9ers play him as an end in the 4/3 and an OLB in the 3/4 it will be interesting to see how he does standing versus hand on the ground. I love his attitude--willing to play safety if that's what they want.

The comments by his DBs at NC are very encouraging--a sack so fast that they thought it was an offensive off-sides! They didn't have to cover for very long.

Another reason for picking him up--practice for the OLine for dealing with Ware, Hali, etc.

Did you see this part?

Quote:
Of course, Ware and Kansas City's Tamba Hali are former college defensive ends with Quinn's dimensions that are starring as 3-4 outside linebackers in the NFL. Ware (6-4, 262 pounds) and Hali (6-3, 275) ranked first and second, respectively, in sacks in 2010.

DeMarcus Ware in 2010

66 Tackles
15.5 Sacks
2 Forced Fumbles

Tamba Hali in 2010

51 Tackles
14.5 Sacks
4 Forced Fumbles

I'm not sure how Hali is used but Ware rushes the passer on almost every passing down. When you're as dominant as he is you're okay with trading away some creativity.

I'm really hoping Cleveland takes Quinn at 6. I need to see more. 1 season as a starter 2 years ago and combine numbers just isn't enough to warrant such a high pick.

I agree. You draft on potential later in the draft. Not high. Kerrigan is just as athletic as Quinn and way, way more productive and is only viewed as a Mid-1st Rd. pick.
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by SolRebe1:
Is it fair to compare this big physical freak pass rusher to another another projected top 10 pick a years back....


Vernon Goldston????

quinn is a better suited for 3-4 then him (and can also play 4-3)

also quinn has a good attitude and has an amazing motor

What makes Quinn better suited? Gholston went to OSU as a LB first then moved to DE, he's faster, stronger, had experience dropping into coverage some, and was more productive. Plus there's a large community of people who think Quinn is better suited for the 4-3, his HC Butch Davis included in that group.
So what exactly shows he "better suited for the 3-4" then Gholston?

For one, I don't think Vernon Gholston had the necessary instincts to play the game. He could never just react to what was going on around him. He had to be told what to do, and he often looked lost.


Gholston's draft analysis doesn't think so:

http://www.kffl.com/article.php/87797/512?printarticle=1
Quote:
On the field, Gholston was one of the most feared pass-rushers in the game last season, demonstrating a diverse array of moves to get to the quarterback and not just relying on straight bull or speed rushes. Despite his size he was able to engage and anchor against most offensive linemen, though that may prove more difficult at the next level, and he is not afraid to go one-on-one with larger blockers. He plays with a good motor and is adept at anticipating the play.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/vernon-gholston?id=756#tabs:tab-analysis
Quote:
...Shows the effort to impact the play even if he doesn't make the tackle...Plays with a high motor and shows a natural feel for the game, as he continues to improve his ability to anticipate and jump the play...Self-starter with a great passion for the game and is a hard worker in the training room...While very confident in his ability, he is also a humble character with no off-field issues...

I personally think the Robert Quinn is a "Vernon Gholston" in waiting. He doesn't impress me. He's not elite in anything he does. Has a medical red flag, hasn't played in a year, and when he did play wasn't as "wow" inspiring as most posters here think he is.
You all compare him to DeMarcus Ware, but Ware was actually productive in college, unlike Quinn, and Ware was still projected to go in the Late 1st-Early 2nd Rd by S.I. and other draft publications. And in fact, Jerry Jones had to overrule Parcells in drafting Ware. Parcells wanted Marcus Spears at #11. I wouldn't touch Quinn til later in the 1st Rd. He has the biggest bust possibility of any player that's been discussed at #7. I still don't see what all you "Quinn Bandwagon Riders" see in him. This is the NFL, not the NBA where potential gets drafted before production. Potential players are supposed to be drafted later in the draft. Productive players are supposed to go first.

Are you new? They're supposed to, but they don't. In the NFL, it's all about upside.

Vernon Gholston

Btw, after three seasons and not even one sack, those stats would contradict Gholston's draft reports.
[ Edited by PTulini on Apr 24, 2011 at 1:31 AM ]
  • 4ML
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 28,430
No offense, but comparisons to Vernon Gholston are laughable. Robert Quinn was productive in his 1st two years at the college level. In his 2nd year, he was one of the top DEs in the game, in his SECOND YEAR - which is why he was considered one of the choices for top pick in 2011 draft...before the start of 2010 college season.

He was punished for being stupid, and is still considered a top 10 player. Why? Not just because he was athletic, he was beating senior and junior OLs in his 1st and 2nd year.

Now, biggest issues were Gholston weren't his abilities. It was his heart. Many people have said that he just never loved football. That's not the case with Quinn. The guy lives to play the game. The attitude and mental part is just as important as the physical part (if not more) and calling him another Gholston or Balmer just goes to show that people have not done any research on Quinn.
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by SolRebe1:
Is it fair to compare this big physical freak pass rusher to another another projected top 10 pick a years back....


Vernon Goldston????

quinn is a better suited for 3-4 then him (and can also play 4-3)

also quinn has a good attitude and has an amazing motor

What makes Quinn better suited? Gholston went to OSU as a LB first then moved to DE, he's faster, stronger, had experience dropping into coverage some, and was more productive. Plus there's a large community of people who think Quinn is better suited for the 4-3, his HC Butch Davis included in that group.
So what exactly shows he "better suited for the 3-4" then Gholston?

For one, I don't think Vernon Gholston had the necessary instincts to play the game. He could never just react to what was going on around him. He had to be told what to do, and he often looked lost.


Gholston's draft analysis doesn't think so:

http://www.kffl.com/article.php/87797/512?printarticle=1
Quote:
On the field, Gholston was one of the most feared pass-rushers in the game last season, demonstrating a diverse array of moves to get to the quarterback and not just relying on straight bull or speed rushes. Despite his size he was able to engage and anchor against most offensive linemen, though that may prove more difficult at the next level, and he is not afraid to go one-on-one with larger blockers. He plays with a good motor and is adept at anticipating the play.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/vernon-gholston?id=756#tabs:tab-analysis
Quote:
...Shows the effort to impact the play even if he doesn't make the tackle...Plays with a high motor and shows a natural feel for the game, as he continues to improve his ability to anticipate and jump the play...Self-starter with a great passion for the game and is a hard worker in the training room...While very confident in his ability, he is also a humble character with no off-field issues...

I personally think the Robert Quinn is a "Vernon Gholston" in waiting. He doesn't impress me. He's not elite in anything he does. Has a medical red flag, hasn't played in a year, and when he did play wasn't as "wow" inspiring as most posters here think he is.
You all compare him to DeMarcus Ware, but Ware was actually productive in college, unlike Quinn, and Ware was still projected to go in the Late 1st-Early 2nd Rd by S.I. and other draft publications. And in fact, Jerry Jones had to overrule Parcells in drafting Ware. Parcells wanted Marcus Spears at #11. I wouldn't touch Quinn til later in the 1st Rd. He has the biggest bust possibility of any player that's been discussed at #7. I still don't see what all you "Quinn Bandwagon Riders" see in him. This is the NFL, not the NBA where potential gets drafted before production. Potential players are supposed to be drafted later in the draft. Productive players are supposed to go first.

Are you new? They're supposed to, but they don't. In the NFL, it's all about upside.

Vernon Gholston

Btw, after three seasons and not even one sack, those stats would contradict Gholston's draft reports.

I took it as, when Gholston was coming out of the draft compared to now with Quinn coming out. Of course anyone could be better then Gholston now.
Any most all players drafted high, were productive or dominate against equal competition. Not solely based off potential. Everything in regards to Quinn is all potential and no facts of how great he is. At least Gholston produced in college. Fact is, Quinn's "great" stats came against weak competition and his games against equal/better competition, he vanished. That was the arguement about Gholston when we was coming out, that he would disappear in games.
Why for 1 second, should I assume Quinn won't be another Gholston. All I'm asking for is 1 simple little thing that shows me he's worth a high pick? I'm not as high on Patrick Peterson as most on this board, but I do understand why he's considered a high pick (I just believe PP is best suited for Safety), Von Miller has shown my why he's considered a Top-10 pick. Quinn? He's done nothing impressive to me.
  • 4ML
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 28,430
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Interesting interview with Butch Davis today, where he said Quinn's best fit is in the 4/3, but he thinks he could do OK in the 3/4. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I was a bit surprised.

Let's not listen to Butch Davis. He is a damn good college coach, but at the NFL level - he consistently put his players in systems they didn't fit

Butch Davis should get more respect then that. If anyone knows DLineman, he'd be it. He played the position, coached it under Jimmy Johnson at Miami and Dallas. And his "bad" coaching wasn't as bad at it's made out to be. He took a team that was 3-13 the year before (with Tim Couch as his QB) and in his 1st year improved to 7-9, then took them to the playoffs with a 9-7 losing in a good game against the Steelers. Granted he followd His first 3 years his defense ranked 15th, 10th, and 12th in Points Against. Not the greatest, but not horrible either. His undoing was his 4th year, they started out horrible and got waxed by the Bengals and they forced him to resign. Know who the last Brown's HC lead them to the playoffs was? Butch Davis in 2002. Before him? Belichick in 1994. I wouldn't discredit Butch Davis just cause he had a a couple bad season with the Browns. They Browns are habitual losers.
I'd 100% take into account what Davis has to say about any of his DLineman. Its not a coincedence that Kentwan Balmer didn't really do much in college until his Sr.year (Butch Davis's 1st at UNC).

Coaching in NFL is very different from coaching in college. This is the same Butch Davis who couldn't take a talent like Courtney Brown (draft at no.1 overall the year before Butch Davis joined the Browns) and turn him into something special.

More importantly, this is the same Butch Davis who drafted Gerard Warren - his first draft pick with the Browns with the no.3 overall pick. Justin Smith and Richard Seymour went within few picks after that.

Butch Davis didn't just fail as a HC with the Browns, he lost pretty much all credibility when it came to drafting college kids. I'm sorry, being a good coach doesn't mean being a great talent evaluator. Mike Singletary may be a good LB coach, but he didn't think Willis will be a great player or a right fit in 3-4 defense.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
No offense, but comparisons to Vernon Gholston are laughable. Robert Quinn was productive in his 1st two years at the college level. In his 2nd year, he was one of the top DEs in the game, in his SECOND YEAR - which is why he was considered one of the choices for top pick in 2011 draft...before the start of 2010 college season.

He was punished for being stupid, and is still considered a top 10 player. Why? Not just because he was athletic, he was beating senior and junior OLs in his 1st and 2nd year.

Now, biggest issues were Gholston weren't his abilities. It was his heart. Many people have said that he just never loved football. That's not the case with Quinn. The guy lives to play the game. The attitude and mental part is just as important as the physical part (if not more) and calling him another Gholston or Balmer just goes to show that people have not done any research on Quinn.

Why is it "laughable"? Quinn was productive only in his Soph. year (he has a big old 2 sacks his freshman year).
And him being considered a Top-10 after his Soph. year was only after most draft people assumed he would have played his Jr. Year and improved. Had he played and took a stop backwards, he wouldn't still be viewed as a Top-10 pick. He'd be more in the 2nd Rd. range. Which is where he belongs.
Again, explain to me how Quinn and Gholston are not similiar when they were both coming out in the draft?
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by SolRebe1:
Is it fair to compare this big physical freak pass rusher to another another projected top 10 pick a years back....


Vernon Goldston????

quinn is a better suited for 3-4 then him (and can also play 4-3)

also quinn has a good attitude and has an amazing motor

What makes Quinn better suited? Gholston went to OSU as a LB first then moved to DE, he's faster, stronger, had experience dropping into coverage some, and was more productive. Plus there's a large community of people who think Quinn is better suited for the 4-3, his HC Butch Davis included in that group.
So what exactly shows he "better suited for the 3-4" then Gholston?

For one, I don't think Vernon Gholston had the necessary instincts to play the game. He could never just react to what was going on around him. He had to be told what to do, and he often looked lost.


Gholston's draft analysis doesn't think so:

http://www.kffl.com/article.php/87797/512?printarticle=1
Quote:
On the field, Gholston was one of the most feared pass-rushers in the game last season, demonstrating a diverse array of moves to get to the quarterback and not just relying on straight bull or speed rushes. Despite his size he was able to engage and anchor against most offensive linemen, though that may prove more difficult at the next level, and he is not afraid to go one-on-one with larger blockers. He plays with a good motor and is adept at anticipating the play.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/vernon-gholston?id=756#tabs:tab-analysis
Quote:
...Shows the effort to impact the play even if he doesn't make the tackle...Plays with a high motor and shows a natural feel for the game, as he continues to improve his ability to anticipate and jump the play...Self-starter with a great passion for the game and is a hard worker in the training room...While very confident in his ability, he is also a humble character with no off-field issues...

I personally think the Robert Quinn is a "Vernon Gholston" in waiting. He doesn't impress me. He's not elite in anything he does. Has a medical red flag, hasn't played in a year, and when he did play wasn't as "wow" inspiring as most posters here think he is.
You all compare him to DeMarcus Ware, but Ware was actually productive in college, unlike Quinn, and Ware was still projected to go in the Late 1st-Early 2nd Rd by S.I. and other draft publications. And in fact, Jerry Jones had to overrule Parcells in drafting Ware. Parcells wanted Marcus Spears at #11. I wouldn't touch Quinn til later in the 1st Rd. He has the biggest bust possibility of any player that's been discussed at #7. I still don't see what all you "Quinn Bandwagon Riders" see in him. This is the NFL, not the NBA where potential gets drafted before production. Potential players are supposed to be drafted later in the draft. Productive players are supposed to go first.

Are you new? They're supposed to, but they don't. In the NFL, it's all about upside.

Vernon Gholston

Btw, after three seasons and not even one sack, those stats would contradict Gholston's draft reports.

I took it as, when Gholston was coming out of the draft compared to now with Quinn coming out. Of course anyone could be better then Gholston now.
Any most all players drafted high, were productive or dominate against equal competition. Not solely based off potential. Everything in regards to Quinn is all potential and no facts of how great he is. At least Gholston produced in college. Fact is, Quinn's "great" stats came against weak competition and his games against equal/better competition, he vanished. That was the arguement about Gholston when we was coming out, that he would disappear in games.
Why for 1 second, should I assume Quinn won't be another Gholston. All I'm asking for is 1 simple little thing that shows me he's worth a high pick? I'm not as high on Patrick Peterson as most on this board, but I do understand why he's considered a high pick (I just believe PP is best suited for Safety), Von Miller has shown my why he's considered a Top-10 pick. Quinn? He's done nothing impressive to me.

See, that's where you and I differ. For some reason I think Von Miller is over-rated. He relies solely on his speed and has a tendency to be too aggressive. He over-pursues and more often than not, runs himself out of the play. With his size, (or lack of) I believe Von Miller will get swallowed up in the NFL.
  • 4ML
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 28,430
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
No offense, but comparisons to Vernon Gholston are laughable. Robert Quinn was productive in his 1st two years at the college level. In his 2nd year, he was one of the top DEs in the game, in his SECOND YEAR - which is why he was considered one of the choices for top pick in 2011 draft...before the start of 2010 college season.

He was punished for being stupid, and is still considered a top 10 player. Why? Not just because he was athletic, he was beating senior and junior OLs in his 1st and 2nd year.

Now, biggest issues were Gholston weren't his abilities. It was his heart. Many people have said that he just never loved football. That's not the case with Quinn. The guy lives to play the game. The attitude and mental part is just as important as the physical part (if not more) and calling him another Gholston or Balmer just goes to show that people have not done any research on Quinn.

Why is it "laughable"? Quinn was productive only in his Soph. year (he has a big old 2 sacks his freshman year).
And him being considered a Top-10 after his Soph. year was only after most draft people assumed he would have played his Jr. Year and improved. Had he played and took a stop backwards, he wouldn't still be viewed as a Top-10 pick. He'd be more in the 2nd Rd. range. Which is where he belongs.
Again, explain to me how Quinn and Gholston are not similiar when they were both coming out in the draft?

I'm not one of those guys who look at sack numbers. It's about putting pressure on the QB, and Quinn did plenty of that during his soph. year AND he did some of it during his freshman year in the last 3-4 games. A lot of DEs don't even play in their freshman year.

I do remember Gholston shot up the draft boards due to his combine numbers, and his heart was questioned then too. I remembered reading that he'd give up on plays and not try hard on every snap. Also, Gholston was a one trick pony. He was poor in the run game.

None of this true of Quinn. Quinn is raw, but he is relentless and goes 100% on every play...! He can rush the passer, he is a beast against the run as well. Sure, he was beating up on inferior opposition, but he was still only a sophomore. Since, you like comparing sack totals - Von Miller had 3 sacks in his 2nd year. So, Von Miller was not even beating up on inferior opposition.

Quinn also has great football IQ. He doesn't get run out of plays often, doesn't over-run plays, he is a very smart player. No one ever accused Gholston of playing smart. Gholston relied heavily on his physical traits to rush the passer and that's it, while Quinn plays a complete game and uses his head.
[ Edited by 49ersMyLife on Apr 24, 2011 at 2:09 AM ]
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
No offense, but comparisons to Vernon Gholston are laughable. Robert Quinn was productive in his 1st two years at the college level. In his 2nd year, he was one of the top DEs in the game, in his SECOND YEAR - which is why he was considered one of the choices for top pick in 2011 draft...before the start of 2010 college season.

He was punished for being stupid, and is still considered a top 10 player. Why? Not just because he was athletic, he was beating senior and junior OLs in his 1st and 2nd year.

Now, biggest issues were Gholston weren't his abilities. It was his heart. Many people have said that he just never loved football. That's not the case with Quinn. The guy lives to play the game. The attitude and mental part is just as important as the physical part (if not more) and calling him another Gholston or Balmer just goes to show that people have not done any research on Quinn.

Why is it "laughable"? Quinn was productive only in his Soph. year (he has a big old 2 sacks his freshman year).
And him being considered a Top-10 after his Soph. year was only after most draft people assumed he would have played his Jr. Year and improved. Had he played and took a stop backwards, he wouldn't still be viewed as a Top-10 pick. He'd be more in the 2nd Rd. range. Which is where he belongs.
Again, explain to me how Quinn and Gholston are not similiar when they were both coming out in the draft?

I'm not one of those guys who look at sack numbers. It's about putting pressure on the QB, and Quinn did plenty of that during his soph. year AND he did some of it during his freshman year in the last 3-4 games. A lot of DEs don't even play in their freshman year.

I do remember Gholston shot up the draft boards due to his combine numbers, and his heart was questioned then too. I remembered reading that he'd give up on plays and not try hard on every snap. Also, Gholston was a one trick pony. He was poor in the run game.

None of this true of Quinn. Quinn is raw, but he is relentless and goes 100% on every play...! He can rush the passer, he is a beast against the run as well. Sure, he was beating up on inferior opposition, but he was still only a sophomore. Since, you like comparing sack totals - Von Miller had 3 sacks in his 2nd year. So, Von Miller was not even beating up on inferior opposition.

Quinn also has great football IQ. He doesn't get run out of plays often, doesn't over-run plays, he is a very smart player. No one ever accused Gholston of playing smart. Gholston relied heavily on his physical traits to rush the passer and that's it, while Quinn plays a complete game and uses his head.

  • 4ML
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 28,430
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by SolRebe1:
Is it fair to compare this big physical freak pass rusher to another another projected top 10 pick a years back....


Vernon Goldston????

quinn is a better suited for 3-4 then him (and can also play 4-3)

also quinn has a good attitude and has an amazing motor

What makes Quinn better suited? Gholston went to OSU as a LB first then moved to DE, he's faster, stronger, had experience dropping into coverage some, and was more productive. Plus there's a large community of people who think Quinn is better suited for the 4-3, his HC Butch Davis included in that group.
So what exactly shows he "better suited for the 3-4" then Gholston?

For one, I don't think Vernon Gholston had the necessary instincts to play the game. He could never just react to what was going on around him. He had to be told what to do, and he often looked lost.


Gholston's draft analysis doesn't think so:

http://www.kffl.com/article.php/87797/512?printarticle=1
Quote:
On the field, Gholston was one of the most feared pass-rushers in the game last season, demonstrating a diverse array of moves to get to the quarterback and not just relying on straight bull or speed rushes. Despite his size he was able to engage and anchor against most offensive linemen, though that may prove more difficult at the next level, and he is not afraid to go one-on-one with larger blockers. He plays with a good motor and is adept at anticipating the play.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/vernon-gholston?id=756#tabs:tab-analysis
Quote:
...Shows the effort to impact the play even if he doesn't make the tackle...Plays with a high motor and shows a natural feel for the game, as he continues to improve his ability to anticipate and jump the play...Self-starter with a great passion for the game and is a hard worker in the training room...While very confident in his ability, he is also a humble character with no off-field issues...

I personally think the Robert Quinn is a "Vernon Gholston" in waiting. He doesn't impress me. He's not elite in anything he does. Has a medical red flag, hasn't played in a year, and when he did play wasn't as "wow" inspiring as most posters here think he is.
You all compare him to DeMarcus Ware, but Ware was actually productive in college, unlike Quinn, and Ware was still projected to go in the Late 1st-Early 2nd Rd by S.I. and other draft publications. And in fact, Jerry Jones had to overrule Parcells in drafting Ware. Parcells wanted Marcus Spears at #11. I wouldn't touch Quinn til later in the 1st Rd. He has the biggest bust possibility of any player that's been discussed at #7. I still don't see what all you "Quinn Bandwagon Riders" see in him. This is the NFL, not the NBA where potential gets drafted before production. Potential players are supposed to be drafted later in the draft. Productive players are supposed to go first.

Are you new? They're supposed to, but they don't. In the NFL, it's all about upside.

Vernon Gholston

Btw, after three seasons and not even one sack, those stats would contradict Gholston's draft reports.

I took it as, when Gholston was coming out of the draft compared to now with Quinn coming out. Of course anyone could be better then Gholston now.
Any most all players drafted high, were productive or dominate against equal competition. Not solely based off potential. Everything in regards to Quinn is all potential and no facts of how great he is. At least Gholston produced in college. Fact is, Quinn's "great" stats came against weak competition and his games against equal/better competition, he vanished. That was the arguement about Gholston when we was coming out, that he would disappear in games.
Why for 1 second, should I assume Quinn won't be another Gholston. All I'm asking for is 1 simple little thing that shows me he's worth a high pick? I'm not as high on Patrick Peterson as most on this board, but I do understand why he's considered a high pick (I just believe PP is best suited for Safety), Von Miller has shown my why he's considered a Top-10 pick. Quinn? He's done nothing impressive to me.

See, that's where you and I differ. For some reason I think Von Miller is over-rated. He relies solely on his speed and has a tendency to be too aggressive. He over-pursues and more often than not, runs himself out of the play. With his size, (or lack of) I believe Von Miller will get swallowed up in the NFL.

This. Von Miller = Julian Peterson. He will be okay in 3-4, but a damn good OLB in 4-3.

Von Miller will get his sack numbers in either system, but he will be a liability in 3-4 against the run. Put him at OLB in 4-3 and use him the way Seattle used Julian Peterson, you'll get a guy who can get you 8-10 sacks from that position while not exposing his weakness as much by protecting him with a DE and MLB.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Interesting interview with Butch Davis today, where he said Quinn's best fit is in the 4/3, but he thinks he could do OK in the 3/4. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I was a bit surprised.

Let's not listen to Butch Davis. He is a damn good college coach, but at the NFL level - he consistently put his players in systems they didn't fit

Butch Davis should get more respect then that. If anyone knows DLineman, he'd be it. He played the position, coached it under Jimmy Johnson at Miami and Dallas. And his "bad" coaching wasn't as bad at it's made out to be. He took a team that was 3-13 the year before (with Tim Couch as his QB) and in his 1st year improved to 7-9, then took them to the playoffs with a 9-7 losing in a good game against the Steelers. Granted he followd His first 3 years his defense ranked 15th, 10th, and 12th in Points Against. Not the greatest, but not horrible either. His undoing was his 4th year, they started out horrible and got waxed by the Bengals and they forced him to resign. Know who the last Brown's HC lead them to the playoffs was? Butch Davis in 2002. Before him? Belichick in 1994. I wouldn't discredit Butch Davis just cause he had a a couple bad season with the Browns. They Browns are habitual losers.
I'd 100% take into account what Davis has to say about any of his DLineman. Its not a coincedence that Kentwan Balmer didn't really do much in college until his Sr.year (Butch Davis's 1st at UNC).

Coaching in NFL is very different from coaching in college. This is the same Butch Davis who couldn't take a talent like Courtney Brown (draft at no.1 overall the year before Butch Davis joined the Browns) and turn him into something special.

More importantly, this is the same Butch Davis who drafted Gerard Warren - his first draft pick with the Browns with the no.3 overall pick. Justin Smith and Richard Seymour went within few picks after that.

Butch Davis didn't just fail as a HC with the Browns, he lost pretty much all credibility when it came to drafting college kids. I'm sorry, being a good coach doesn't mean being a great talent evaluator. Mike Singletary may be a good LB coach, but he didn't think Willis will be a great player or a right fit in 3-4 defense.

Well Courtney Brown wasn't his pick, and you sometimes can't coach up other people's draft mistakes. And the Warren pick wasn't a good one. But that pick lies with Dwight Clark who was the GM at the time as much as it does Davis. Davis took over as GM after Clark quit in 2002.
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
I took it as, when Gholston was coming out of the draft compared to now with Quinn coming out. Of course anyone could be better then Gholston now.
Any most all players drafted high, were productive or dominate against equal competition. Not solely based off potential. Everything in regards to Quinn is all potential and no facts of how great he is. At least Gholston produced in college. Fact is, Quinn's "great" stats came against weak competition and his games against equal/better competition, he vanished. That was the arguement about Gholston when we was coming out, that he would disappear in games.
Why for 1 second, should I assume Quinn won't be another Gholston. All I'm asking for is 1 simple little thing that shows me he's worth a high pick? I'm not as high on Patrick Peterson as most on this board, but I do understand why he's considered a high pick (I just believe PP is best suited for Safety), Von Miller has shown my why he's considered a Top-10 pick. Quinn? He's done nothing impressive to me.

See, that's where you and I differ. For some reason I think Von Miller is over-rated. He relies solely on his speed and has a tendency to be too aggressive. He over-pursues and more often than not, runs himself out of the play. With his size, (or lack of) I believe Von Miller will get swallowed up in the NFL.

We don't differ. I was speaking on the players in the Top-10 that I'm not a crazy for, meaning Von Miller and Patrick Peterson. Meaning, even though I do think they are overrated at their respective positions, I do understand why they are Top-10 picks because of their production. I could see Miller struggling too, I agree with you on that. I don't want you to misunderstand me on the Miller quote.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
No offense, but comparisons to Vernon Gholston are laughable. Robert Quinn was productive in his 1st two years at the college level. In his 2nd year, he was one of the top DEs in the game, in his SECOND YEAR - which is why he was considered one of the choices for top pick in 2011 draft...before the start of 2010 college season.

He was punished for being stupid, and is still considered a top 10 player. Why? Not just because he was athletic, he was beating senior and junior OLs in his 1st and 2nd year.

Now, biggest issues were Gholston weren't his abilities. It was his heart. Many people have said that he just never loved football. That's not the case with Quinn. The guy lives to play the game. The attitude and mental part is just as important as the physical part (if not more) and calling him another Gholston or Balmer just goes to show that people have not done any research on Quinn.

Why is it "laughable"? Quinn was productive only in his Soph. year (he has a big old 2 sacks his freshman year).
And him being considered a Top-10 after his Soph. year was only after most draft people assumed he would have played his Jr. Year and improved. Had he played and took a stop backwards, he wouldn't still be viewed as a Top-10 pick. He'd be more in the 2nd Rd. range. Which is where he belongs.
Again, explain to me how Quinn and Gholston are not similiar when they were both coming out in the draft?

I'm not one of those guys who look at sack numbers. It's about putting pressure on the QB, and Quinn did plenty of that during his soph. year AND he did some of it during his freshman year in the last 3-4 games. A lot of DEs don't even play in their freshman year.

I do remember Gholston shot up the draft boards due to his combine numbers, and his heart was questioned then too. I remembered reading that he'd give up on plays and not try hard on every snap. Also, Gholston was a one trick pony. He was poor in the run game.

None of this true of Quinn. Quinn is raw, but he is relentless and goes 100% on every play...! He can rush the passer, he is a beast against the run as well. Sure, he was beating up on inferior opposition, but he was still only a sophomore. Since, you like comparing sack totals - Von Miller had 3 sacks in his 2nd year. So, Von Miller was not even beating up on inferior opposition.

Quinn also has great football IQ. He doesn't get run out of plays often, doesn't over-run plays, he is a very smart player. No one ever accused Gholston of playing smart. Gholston relied heavily on his physical traits to rush the passer and that's it, while Quinn plays a complete game and uses his head.

See, I don't see enough facts supporting that "Quinn has a great football IQ". He gets taken out of games just like Gholston did.
And the hurries you claim that Quinn had, aren't as great as you think:
http://www.cfbstats.com/2009/player/457/1017309/miscdefense/gamelog.html
11 of the 12 QB Hurries, he was credited with came against low competition (just like his sacks) and 1/2 were in the Duke game (6 hurries).
I know you said your not a stats person, but I am. I don't base my sole opinion only on stats though. But stats tell a big story IMO. And the stats tell me "Quinn is a bully on the little guys, and is the little guy against the real good teams".
  • 4ML
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 28,430
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
I took it as, when Gholston was coming out of the draft compared to now with Quinn coming out. Of course anyone could be better then Gholston now.
Any most all players drafted high, were productive or dominate against equal competition. Not solely based off potential. Everything in regards to Quinn is all potential and no facts of how great he is. At least Gholston produced in college. Fact is, Quinn's "great" stats came against weak competition and his games against equal/better competition, he vanished. That was the arguement about Gholston when we was coming out, that he would disappear in games.
Why for 1 second, should I assume Quinn won't be another Gholston. All I'm asking for is 1 simple little thing that shows me he's worth a high pick? I'm not as high on Patrick Peterson as most on this board, but I do understand why he's considered a high pick (I just believe PP is best suited for Safety), Von Miller has shown my why he's considered a Top-10 pick. Quinn? He's done nothing impressive to me.

See, that's where you and I differ. For some reason I think Von Miller is over-rated. He relies solely on his speed and has a tendency to be too aggressive. He over-pursues and more often than not, runs himself out of the play. With his size, (or lack of) I believe Von Miller will get swallowed up in the NFL.

We don't differ. I was speaking on the players in the Top-10 that I'm not a crazy for, meaning Von Miller and Patrick Peterson. Meaning, even though I do think they are overrated at their respective positions, I do understand why they are Top-10 picks because of their production. I could see Miller struggling too, I agree with you on that. I don't want you to misunderstand me on the Miller quote.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
No offense, but comparisons to Vernon Gholston are laughable. Robert Quinn was productive in his 1st two years at the college level. In his 2nd year, he was one of the top DEs in the game, in his SECOND YEAR - which is why he was considered one of the choices for top pick in 2011 draft...before the start of 2010 college season.

He was punished for being stupid, and is still considered a top 10 player. Why? Not just because he was athletic, he was beating senior and junior OLs in his 1st and 2nd year.

Now, biggest issues were Gholston weren't his abilities. It was his heart. Many people have said that he just never loved football. That's not the case with Quinn. The guy lives to play the game. The attitude and mental part is just as important as the physical part (if not more) and calling him another Gholston or Balmer just goes to show that people have not done any research on Quinn.

Why is it "laughable"? Quinn was productive only in his Soph. year (he has a big old 2 sacks his freshman year).
And him being considered a Top-10 after his Soph. year was only after most draft people assumed he would have played his Jr. Year and improved. Had he played and took a stop backwards, he wouldn't still be viewed as a Top-10 pick. He'd be more in the 2nd Rd. range. Which is where he belongs.
Again, explain to me how Quinn and Gholston are not similiar when they were both coming out in the draft?

I'm not one of those guys who look at sack numbers. It's about putting pressure on the QB, and Quinn did plenty of that during his soph. year AND he did some of it during his freshman year in the last 3-4 games. A lot of DEs don't even play in their freshman year.

I do remember Gholston shot up the draft boards due to his combine numbers, and his heart was questioned then too. I remembered reading that he'd give up on plays and not try hard on every snap. Also, Gholston was a one trick pony. He was poor in the run game.

None of this true of Quinn. Quinn is raw, but he is relentless and goes 100% on every play...! He can rush the passer, he is a beast against the run as well. Sure, he was beating up on inferior opposition, but he was still only a sophomore. Since, you like comparing sack totals - Von Miller had 3 sacks in his 2nd year. So, Von Miller was not even beating up on inferior opposition.

Quinn also has great football IQ. He doesn't get run out of plays often, doesn't over-run plays, he is a very smart player. No one ever accused Gholston of playing smart. Gholston relied heavily on his physical traits to rush the passer and that's it, while Quinn plays a complete game and uses his head.

See, I don't see enough facts supporting that "Quinn has a great football IQ". He gets taken out of games just like Gholston did.
And the hurries you claim that Quinn had, aren't as great as you think:
http://www.cfbstats.com/2009/player/457/1017309/miscdefense/gamelog.html
11 of the 12 QB Hurries, he was credited with came against low competition (just like his sacks) and 1/2 were in the Duke game (6 hurries).
I know you said your not a stats person, but I am. I don't base my sole opinion only on stats though. But stats tell a big story IMO. And the stats tell me "Quinn is a bully on the little guys, and is the little guy against the real good teams".

You're not looking at all the stats. Some games he didn't have a hurry - but he had a FF. Some games he didn't have either, but then he chipped in with tackles. He had two bad games against Florida State and VaTech - but he had a pretty damn good soph year.

Another thing, one of his best game in his freshman year was against VaTech, and they paid him extra attention the second time around.

Also, I've watched a lot of Tar Heels games - and we just have to disagree on him getting taken out of the game. Stats show that very clearly. He contributes through sacks, tackles, tackles for loss, FF, QB hurries, etc. Plus, I watched him play a LOT, and he is always a big factor.

You've to remember, he was a sophomore that year - which is pretty damn impressive any way you look at it. Many sophomore DE struggle badly...opposing teams were focused on stopping him.
[ Edited by 49ersMyLife on Apr 24, 2011 at 3:03 AM ]
Originally posted by Travisty13:


See, I don't see enough facts supporting that "Quinn has a great football IQ". He gets taken out of games just like Gholston did.
And the hurries you claim that Quinn had, aren't as great as you think:
http://www.cfbstats.com/2009/player/457/1017309/miscdefense/gamelog.html
11 of the 12 QB Hurries, he was credited with came against low competition (just like his sacks) and 1/2 were in the Duke game (6 hurries).
I know you said your not a stats person, but I am. I don't base my sole opinion only on stats though. But stats tell a big story IMO. And the stats tell me "Quinn is a bully on the little guys, and is the little guy against the real good teams".

I've been catching up on these last few comments and I have to just laugh at your Gholston comparison and the logic behind it.

So your claim is that Quinn hasn't proven himself but fail to acknowledge the fact that he put up a terrific season in his sophmore year. Do you understand how college football works? Very few players start playing their underclassmen years. You'll find very few busts in the NFL who played great their freshmen/sophmore seasons.

Quinn is still young but he has natural ability as a pass rusher. Gholston had great speed but he was more stiff in his movements.

As for stats the site you mention isn't even accurate. He clearly had at least one sack in that BC game against Castonzo. Also something not shown on there is double teams taken up and holding penalties caused. Those 2 things happened fairly often with Quinn.

The other thing that Robert has that Gholston didn't is his wrestling background. I don't know how much you know about that sport but it takes extreme effort, hard work and also creates excellent ability that carries strongly to the NFL - hand placement, leverage and flexbility.

Quinn hasn't even scratched his surface yet and if not for his suspension he would've proven everything you are asking for. Except then you'd be on here saying "I wish Quinn would drop to us" but he'd be an easy top 3 pick.

His suspension could be a blessing in disguise for us.