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CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

I think Peterson has a chance to a be a shutdown corner (Pro-Bowl does not equal "shutdown") but every other corner in the draft can be good, but not shutdown.

Therefore, I would rather go with one of the disruptive elite front seven players available. Our corners are not the problem, nor the solution.

Let's shut plays down before they even have a chance, much like Green Bay and Pittsburgh do.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Great pass rusher OLB is more valuable than a great CB

Debate over.
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

If I can add:

Even if your franchise CB doesn't get burned, your second and third CB will if the QB is given too much time.

Sage.
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

Can anyone formulize why Peterson would have a greater impact than the top pass rushers, Quinn and Miller?
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.




If my memory serves me well. I can recall & remember that we've had both in the '80's & '90's...
Originally posted by Schulzy:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Well, I wouldn't say that the Packers have average talent at CB.

But your point is definitely well taken.

I would say the packers have one of the best passrushers outside of Dware... Look at dallas even with Dware this season they still had the worst D in history of the franchise, even with a top pick in both newman, and jenkins at cb. No Saftey help and only 1 guy that can get to a qb... Makes you wonder, Do we look at Miller or Take Cameron, even prince. Who's the better talent out of them? Miller can rush the edge, can't play the run. Cameron can do both at end. Prince is a raw talent, but with amazing talent.. Either way we fill a hole.
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
Originally posted by Schulzy:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Well, I wouldn't say that the Packers have average talent at CB.

But your point is definitely well taken.

I would say the packers have one of the best passrushers outside of Dware... Look at dallas even with Dware this season they still had the worst D in history of the franchise, even with a top pick in both newman, and jenkins at cb. No Saftey help and only 1 guy that can get to a qb... Makes you wonder, Do we look at Miller or Take Cameron, even prince. Who's the better talent out of them? Miller can rush the edge, can't play the run. Cameron can do both at end. Prince is a raw talent, but with amazing talent.. Either way we fill a hole.

I'd probably take Cameron or Dareus(if he's there). Like you said they can help our pass rush and our run D. Our run d is already good but without Manny and with T. Spikes getting older it could possibly get worse.

Speaking of Dallas's defense that was horrible even though they had Ware, Newman(overrated), and Jenkins(overrated), like you said they have no safeties. We dont have a great safety either but we could use one. The Packers have Nick Collins, Bigby, and even Woodson is used like a safety sometimes. The Steelers have Polamolu and Clarke. Ravens have Reed. We need to get us one of those. I wouldn't mind selecting Rahim Moore in the 2nd if he's available. Maybe Ahmad Black in the 3rd? He reminds me of Nate Allen.
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

Can anyone formulize why Peterson would have a greater impact than the top pass rushers, Quinn and Miller?

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round
usually the opp has several targets...i dont trust prince, the reasons were already mentioned.
yes, you can find pass-rushers in lower rounds but you can also find good CBs there...QB ist the only position which could be filled with 1st-rounders sufficiently.
Given the choice between a lockdown corner or a monster edge rusher, I would take the edge rusher every time. A good edge rusher can disrupt an offense more than a lockdown corner.

Unfortunately, the 49ers have neither of these.
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round
usually the opp has several targets...i dont trust prince, the reasons were already mentioned.
yes, you can find pass-rushers in lower rounds but you can also find good CBs there...QB ist the only position which could be filled with 1st-rounders sufficiently.

i wouldnt be mad if we took pass rush over prince mainly cause i dont see him as a shutdown corner just as above avg much like clements in his prime however peterson is a shutdown corner
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This. Unless the OLB is going to be the Patrick Willis of OLBs, I take the CB. Of course judging the CB on his talent/ability as well.
Originally posted by Rivers77:
Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Agree. Plus, Miller is considered the best pure pass rusher, Prince isn't the best corner, many would tell you that Peterson is better. This being the case, we take the best available player, which would be Miller.

if Peterson was available?

If he is, you take him.... Many believe he is the best player in the entire draft....which is why he will be gone by pick 7...

I remember last year people kept coming up with insane scenarios with how Eric Berry could fall to the Niners. I think the same "wishful thinkers" are at it again this year.

You say that, but most people didn't think Crabtree would fall to us either. You never know what will happen in the draft.

We're drafting before Oakland this time though!
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by rayn36:
Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

Can anyone formulize why Peterson would have a greater impact than the top pass rushers, Quinn and Miller?

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round

Yep. And lets not forget most of the time the top passrusher in the NFL doesn't even get one sack per game. A top CB can be said to be a factor on EVERY defensive play.

I know sacks aren't all that matters, hurries/hits and just pressure can make a lot of difference as well, and that is VERY important, but I still take the DB in this case.

That being said I'd have no problem taking Quinn at #7, but for Miller/Jordan it would be too early.

[ Edited by Gavintech on Jan 29, 2011 at 09:26:57 ]