***OFFICIAL 2020-21 SOCCER Thread***

Looks like half the teams want out. Several presidents and chairmen of said team are resigning

Meeting tonight to discuss disbanding lol. I love it.

Even as a fan of what would be considered the big 12 why would you even want that?

Basically tried to recreate the SEC

its f**king hilarious that corrupt UEFA managed to rile up the fans to oppose this. lol. UEFA has ruined the game the past 30 or so years and is full of corruption. The ESL would have been a great thing. But I also suspect the EPL teams joined only to derail this ESL. it made no sense for them to join. Hopefully Madrid, Barca, and Juve look to make a Continental Super League to rival the EPL.

Originally posted by 1251alex:

its f**king hilarious that corrupt UEFA managed to rile up the fans to oppose this. lol. UEFA has ruined the game the past 30 or so years and is full of corruption. The ESL would have been a great thing. But I also suspect the EPL teams joined only to derail this ESL. it made no sense for them to join. Hopefully Madrid, Barca, and Juve look to make a Continental Super League to rival the EPL.

Originally posted by 1251alex:
its f**king hilarious that corrupt UEFA managed to rile up the fans to oppose this. lol. UEFA has ruined the game the past 30 or so years and is full of corruption. The ESL would have been a great thing. But I also suspect the EPL teams joined only to derail this ESL. it made no sense for them to join. Hopefully Madrid, Barca, and Juve look to make a Continental Super League to rival the EPL.

I think you might have misread the situation here, this has nothing at all to do with UEFA riling up the fans, most fans couldn't give a toss about UEFA, or FIFA for that matter. The fundamental mistake made by the English 6 is that the ownership has completely misread the cultural depth of 'football' in England, the clubs do not belong to the owners, they belong to the people and the place. We do not have any form of franchise system, it might be hard for a US audience to fully understand that point, that the clubs are integral to their communities. Those communities feel they have been taken for a ride, whitewashed by the desire to make billions, it has spectacularly backfired. In my view, the ESL would not have been a great thing, it goes against the entire principle of the sport in Europe, participation is based upon performance, that is at the root of the entire sport, there are no guaranteed places, this isn't the NFL, NBA, MLB or even MLS, if you are good enough, you rise to to the top, if you aren't good enough you fall down the pyramid. It is this fundamental mistake that the clubs made. They have a great deal of damage limitation to carry out as trust has been completely eroded. Owners come and go, players come and go but the people and place remain constant, this could be the catalyst for major changes in ownership, I suspect most of the foreign owners will shy away from attending fixtures in the near future.

Originally posted by redrose49er:

Originally posted by 1251alex:
its f**king hilarious that corrupt UEFA managed to rile up the fans to oppose this. lol. UEFA has ruined the game the past 30 or so years and is full of corruption. The ESL would have been a great thing. But I also suspect the EPL teams joined only to derail this ESL. it made no sense for them to join. Hopefully Madrid, Barca, and Juve look to make a Continental Super League to rival the EPL.

I think you might have misread the situation here, this has nothing at all to do with UEFA riling up the fans, most fans couldn't give a toss about UEFA, or FIFA for that matter. The fundamental mistake made by the English 6 is that the ownership has completely misread the cultural depth of 'football' in England, the clubs do not belong to the owners, they belong to the people and the place. We do not have any form of franchise system, it might be hard for a US audience to fully understand that point, that the clubs are integral to their communities. Those communities feel they have been taken for a ride, whitewashed by the desire to make billions, it has spectacularly backfired. In my view, the ESL would not have been a great thing, it goes against the entire principle of the sport in Europe, participation is based upon performance, that is at the root of the entire sport, there are no guaranteed places, this isn't the NFL, NBA, MLB or even MLS, if you are good enough, you rise to to the top, if you aren't good enough you fall down the pyramid. It is this fundamental mistake that the clubs made. They have a great deal of damage limitation to carry out as trust has been completely eroded. Owners come and go, players come and go but the people and place remain constant, this could be the catalyst for major changes in ownership, I suspect most of the foreign owners will shy away from attending fixtures in the near future.

I didn't misread anything. The fans did. This ESL was never meant to replace their domestic league. It was a horrible PR job by the ESL team when it came to making things clear. And they let UEFA control the narrative. UEFA rallied the fans talking about the little guy and football being for the people. It was laughable and the ignorant fans ate it up. Why does UEFA not kick up a storm like this about racism? Why has UEFA constantly let PSG and City violate FFP? Why has UEFA let ticket prices become inaccessible for the average fan? Why did UEFA ruin the sanctity of the classic European Cup in favor of a cashgrab rebranded Champions League? Why do they care about this ESL? Because their dirty little mittens werent going to touch all that money. Madrid, Barca, Juventus, and all of the continental sides who conspired to do this are simply trying to control the money that they bring in, instead of letting UEFA dictate everything. The big european clubs should not have to share revenue with smaller clubs when the whole reason people are even watching is because of the big teams. The average casual fan doesnt want to watch Madrid vs Watford or whatever in CL. They want Barca vs Juve, Madrid vs Bayern etc. And this ESL was not meant to replace any domestic league, it was going to be its own thing. UEFA did a great job derailing this by appealing to the lowest common denominator. Even though they havent done s**t for the little guy and have even been caught up in corruption scandals recently.

Originally posted by 1251alex:
I didn't misread anything. The fans did. This ESL was never meant to replace their domestic league. It was a horrible PR job by the ESL team when it came to making things clear. And they let UEFA control the narrative. UEFA rallied the fans talking about the little guy and football being for the people. It was laughable and the ignorant fans ate it up. Why does UEFA not kick up a storm like this about racism? Why has UEFA constantly let PSG and City violate FFP? Why has UEFA let ticket prices become inaccessible for the average fan? Why did UEFA ruin the sanctity of the classic European Cup in favor of a cashgrab rebranded Champions League? Why do they care about this ESL? Because their dirty little mittens werent going to touch all that money. Madrid, Barca, Juventus, and all of the continental sides who conspired to do this are simply trying to control the money that they bring in, instead of letting UEFA dictate everything. The big european clubs should not have to share revenue with smaller clubs when the whole reason people are even watching is because of the big teams. The average casual fan doesnt want to watch Madrid vs Watford or whatever in CL. They want Barca vs Juve, Madrid vs Bayern etc. And this ESL was not meant to replace any domestic league, it was going to be its own thing. UEFA did a great job derailing this by appealing to the lowest common denominator. Even though they havent done s**t for the little guy and have even been caught up in corruption scandals recently.

OK, we might have to agree to disagree here. Re: the role of UEFA. Believe me, the overwhelming number of football supporters in England have absolutely no affinity with UEFA, no one really cares what UEFA say, they are only involved with a very small, albeit very powerful, number of clubs who qualify for Europe, there are far more clubs who do not qualify for Europe than do. I don't think, and that is simply my own opinion, that UEFA rallied any fans, all of the TV and media coverage I have seen appeared to involve supporters rallying themselves. The thought that the 'big european clubs should not have to share revenue with smaller clubs' is the crux of the argument, the rise of the 'big clubs' is actually killing the domestic game, more and more clubs are on the brink of failure (Covid hasn't helped) as the 'big clubs' suck all the cash out of the game, often as the owners ave saddled the club with huge debts to fund their other business interests (see Glazers). What the 'big clubs' are increasingly losing sight of is that all of the clubs are somewhat interdependent, the vast majority of players at those 'big clubs' actually come through the pyramid, as do managers and coaches. The average casual fan might not want to watch Real v Watford, but what if Watford qualify on merit, should they be excluded because they aren't a 'big club', that simply can't be right? My own view is that the vast majority of fans have little to no interest in Barca v Juve, Madrid v Bayern, maybe in a Semi- or Final, but certainly not in a run of the mill fixture.

Imagine this parallel universe, the NFL (already a franchise system in which no-one can be excluded on performance, so not the best example I accept) faces a similar situation. The 8 biggest market teams use their power to manipulate the system in their favour. The regular season takes place, 49ers score an impressive 14-2 record, winning the NFC West with Justin Fields posting an ORY performance. Then the post-season fixtures are released, with the following teams:

NYG, 5-11
NYJ, 6-10
LA Rams, 7-9
Philly Eagles, 11-5
Washington FT, 6-10
Dallas, 10-6
Bears, 8-8
Texans, 4-12

It doesn't matter how the season plays out, the 8 'biggest' (I know these aren't the biggest, but play along!) get in the playoffs, every single season, guaranteed. Doesn't matter that the 9ers once went 15-1, no ticket, the Pats went 16-0, no ticket. These teams cream off all the additional revenue and split it between themselves. They then sign the best free agents (no salary cap, they decided that change). Rinse and Repeat. Would this be right?

I know my argument above is riddled with holes, but I'm trying to draw a parallel.

Originally posted by 1251alex:
I didn't misread anything. The fans did. This ESL was never meant to replace their domestic league. It was a horrible PR job by the ESL team when it came to making things clear. And they let UEFA control the narrative. UEFA rallied the fans talking about the little guy and football being for the people. It was laughable and the ignorant fans ate it up. Why does UEFA not kick up a storm like this about racism? Why has UEFA constantly let PSG and City violate FFP? Why has UEFA let ticket prices become inaccessible for the average fan? Why did UEFA ruin the sanctity of the classic European Cup in favor of a cashgrab rebranded Champions League? Why do they care about this ESL? Because their dirty little mittens werent going to touch all that money. Madrid, Barca, Juventus, and all of the continental sides who conspired to do this are simply trying to control the money that they bring in, instead of letting UEFA dictate everything. The big european clubs should not have to share revenue with smaller clubs when the whole reason people are even watching is because of the big teams. The average casual fan doesnt want to watch Madrid vs Watford or whatever in CL. They want Barca vs Juve, Madrid vs Bayern etc. And this ESL was not meant to replace any domestic league, it was going to be its own thing. UEFA did a great job derailing this by appealing to the lowest common denominator. Even though they havent done s**t for the little guy and have even been caught up in corruption scandals recently.

I disagree also.

Yes they framed it as this would only replace the champions league, but I can guarantee the "super clubs" would begin playing weakened teams in the premier league because the super league is the main concern and that brings all the money in. As well as that it wouldn't matter where they finished in the premier league as they were guaranteed to be playing in the super league. In addition to this those clubs would be receiving 300 million a year with the other 14 getting nothing like that. How does that make it competitive. Look at the way the fa cup has gone, it's been belittled so much by playing weakened teams it's barely relevant this is what would happen to the premier league.

All I'm getting is a very strong sense of holier than thou and entitlement from the english fans, here. No point in continuing a discussion you have zero desire to look at it from a different perspective.

Originally posted by StOnEy333:
All I'm getting is a very strong sense of holier than thou and entitlement from the english fans, here. No point in continuing a discussion you have zero desire to look at it from a different perspective.

Not sure where you are getting that, except in your own head.

The big thing is Americans are used to a franchise system, and everyone else is not. Soccer in the EU and beyond was largely created "by the fans". The clubs didn't pop up from wealthy owners putting down cash, as is the case usually in the USA, many of these clubs were built from nothing amateur teams almost 100 years ago. So there is real ownership and real community that's built into the fabric of the sport and the locals. It's a totally different mindset.

Originally posted by StOnEy333:
All I'm getting is a very strong sense of holier than thou and entitlement from the english fans, here. No point in continuing a discussion you have zero desire to look at it from a different perspective.

which is why I stopped replying. haha. I absolutely do not give a single s**t if the EPL goes to s**t. "football is for the little guy" blah blah blah is that why the top 6 always wins the EPL and the one time that a fairytale team won it, the big 6 proceeded to quickly dismantle their team and sit the players they bought on their bench? give me a f**king break. They ignored all of my points about UEFA and went back to their "think of what will happen to the EPL???!" as if the EPL is better than the other top 4 leagues. I repeat, nobody gives a f**k about watching Bournemouth vs West Brom or whatever. Nobody gives a f**k about the FA cup, including the top teams who play in it. I have watched football my whole life, I know exactly how promotion and relegation, and qualification work. I also know how FIFA and UEFA like to operate. The big clubs are in their right to take their share of what they rightfully deserve. UEFA made a big stink and fooled the average fan into thinking the ESL would destroy domestic football when that was never the intent. But it was okay when UEFA eliminated the European Cup for a cash grab Champions League? It was okay for the big clubs of England to make their first division the second tier and create the EPL? At the time even Sir Alex Ferguson said the creation of EPL was a disgrace and that they had sold the fans down river. ESL would have been awesome. But they should have called it a cup so the average idiot fan would have understood the concept. But now im actually hoping they do create an actual continental Super League and that they send La Liga and Serie A to hell. "the fans saved football" yesterday. give me a f**king break. let me know when UEFA sticks up for the little guy when their own handling of money isnt involved. lets see if CL ticket prices go down.

Also, I believe the European Cup was created by Real Madrid to face the best of the absolute best in Europe. so f**k off with your "these clubs were created 100 years ago" rhetoric because the plan was never to abolish those clubs or the domestic league. The clubs were just trying to take back control of what they created, and of their fair share.

Originally posted by Janitor:

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

All I'm getting is a very strong sense of holier than thou and entitlement from the english fans, here. No point in continuing a discussion you have zero desire to look at it from a different perspective.

Not sure where you are getting that, except in your own head.

The big thing is Americans are used to a franchise system, and everyone else is not. Soccer in the EU and beyond was largely created "by the fans". The clubs didn't pop up from wealthy owners putting down cash, as is the case usually in the USA, many of these clubs were built from nothing amateur teams almost 100 years ago. So there is real ownership and real community that's built into the fabric of the sport and the locals. It's a totally different mindset.

You're actually doing it to. This "you don't understand so I'll explain it to you" BS. As if I don't already know this. You're, as well as the brits are, speaking down to anybody that doesn't agree with you, so that's where I'm getting the elitism from. lol

Originally posted by 1251alex:
which is why I stopped replying. haha. I absolutely do not give a single s**t if the EPL goes to s**t. "football is for the little guy" blah blah blah is that why the top 6 always wins the EPL and the one time that a fairytale team won it, the big 6 proceeded to quickly dismantle their team and sit the players they bought on their bench? give me a f**king break. They ignored all of my points about UEFA and went back to their "think of what will happen to the EPL???!" as if the EPL is better than the other top 4 leagues. I repeat, nobody gives a f**k about watching Bournemouth vs West Brom or whatever. Nobody gives a f**k about the FA cup, including the top teams who play in it. I have watched football my whole life, I know exactly how promotion and relegation, and qualification work. I also know how FIFA and UEFA like to operate. The big clubs are in their right to take their share of what they rightfully deserve. UEFA made a big stink and fooled the average fan into thinking the ESL would destroy domestic football when that was never the intent. But it was okay when UEFA eliminated the European Cup for a cash grab Champions League? It was okay for the big clubs of England to make their first division the second tier and create the EPL? At the time even Sir Alex Ferguson said the creation of EPL was a disgrace and that they had sold the fans down river. ESL would have been awesome. But they should have called it a cup so the average idiot fan would have understood the concept. But now im actually hoping they do create an actual continental Super League and that they send La Liga and Serie A to hell. "the fans saved football" yesterday. give me a f**king break. let me know when UEFA sticks up for the little guy when their own handling of money isnt involved. lets see if CL ticket prices go down.

Also, I believe the European Cup was created by Real Madrid to face the best of the absolute best in Europe. so f**k off with your "these clubs were created 100 years ago" rhetoric because the plan was never to abolish those clubs or the domestic league. The clubs were just trying to take back control of what they created, and of their fair share.

Where to start with this...

firstly I don't think you'll find 1 person that supports uefa or fifa and believe they are any less a set corrupt c*nts than the owners that have set this up but the difference is they were against it so it was a common goal. Enemy of enemy is a friend and all that. Now it's about using Uefa's own outrage against them and putting them under pressure.

Secondly, you may not give a f*ck about Bournemouth vs Burnley , I may not care about watching that game but there are people who support those teams because they aren't glory hunters and only supporting the "big clubs" with the "best players" they support them because it is the team that your dad supports and his dad supported and took him to the games etc. so just because you or I may not have a vested interest in that game it should mean that they have no ambition to play in the top division. Who are we to say ahh you're small teams so know your place. Thinking like that is the reason you might feel spoken down to.

regarding the premier league trust me there is a lot of hate about how a) it's become far more expensive and sanitised b) how money has dictated who likely wins things c) kick off times moved for tv, the way the the broadcasters go on you'd think football was invented in 1992 and nothing happened before it. I bet practically had heard of Leeds in america until this season because all that mattered was the premier league it's a massive frustration of fans in England. Leeds won the last ever 1st division in the 1992 but the following year man united won the premier league and that was it they were Sky sports poster boy with tv money pumped in and they never looked back.

But the main point the premier league still allowed the opportunity for teams to make it into big league and compete. The top teams have changed in the 29 years of the league. Aston Villa were second in the first season norwich were third. Blackburn came 2nd next year and first the following year. Newcastle came 2nd 2 years running and have played in the champions league as many times have spurs. Nottingham forest 3rd 1 year. Leeds from 92-04 had 8 top 5 finishes. Villa had loads of top 6 finishes. Leicester won it and are now competing to get in the champions league. West Ham are competing this year.

You say ahh but they didn't want to leave the prem. no they wanted it all to play in their closed shop super league earning 300 million a year and to come back and dominate the premier league with their superstar players so that no one ever competes with them. That's the reason they want it because arsenal are average, spurs aren't much better and they know the champions league isn't guaranteed so they don't want anyone else possibly becoming bigger and getting better players then suddenly you might be interested in watching a team like West Ham over spurs.

That's why it's hated because it's self preservation by the big 6. They are trying to pull up the draw bridge whilst they feel they've got the American and Asian audience as they know as proved by arsenal currently that being on top doesn't last forever and in 10 years time West Ham, leicester might have big followings and they can then claim they're the big clubs.