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The win over the Seahawks will be the turning point going forward for the Niners

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Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Yet "one player" in Khalil Mack and Amari Cooper basically transformed their teams into division winners.

Sorry...this game is about talent. Winning can transform culture just as well but in reverse.

I know we need to justify losing out on a premier player at a premier need position but 99% of the players coming in already have good character, work ethics and strong belief in their abilities (winning makeup) but they ALL are leaning on the players next to them.

But the 7-1 record in December is nothing more than that once the final 2018 season whistle blows. Everything starts over after that but talent remains...

What did Mack and Cooper do for the Raiders last season? Their record was the same as ours, Mack is havi g a good season with the Bears but I give Fangio props for that too.

The Colts just shut out the Cowboys, how is that possible if Cooper is so amazingly talented??

They didn't have enough talent around them. They still played to the best of their abilities though and there was no denying the talent there.

It was a really nice post...just think we're all trying too hard to justify losing the #1 pick in the draft after a miserable season and losing that consolation prize for that suffering.
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 18, 2018 at 11:35 AM ]
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
The saints winning and the rams losing means it is highly likely saints will secure home field next week, which means the rams will have nothing to play for week 17 which means a victory for the 49ers which means a lower draft choice which means mediocrity for the next 10 years.

A bye? If the Bears win out and the Rams lose a game, they are tied and the Bears would get the bye.

Or we could also spoil their chances at a bye week.
Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by Waterbear:
Everyone knows my grammar sucks so let's not talk about that lol

There are draft busts ≠ winning this game > getting Bosa.

You and anyone else who have said the above statement can't give evidence to prove your stance because there is none. What there is though are plenty of examples like Garrett vs Thomas and seeing how one win hurt our team and helped the Browns. There are examples of the Jags who won so many games last year and had a "winning culture" that meant nothing this year.

Talent, coaching, and effort is what wins games. We have the coaching and effort imo but we lack the talent to compete for the Superbowl. Getting the highest pick possible gives you the best chance to actually get a game changing player plus getting a chance to coach the senior bowl would be huge. We used that to our advantage to build our last Superbowl team but I'm sure you forget that because anyone who shares your stance has a lack of history.

So I'm sorry but... YOU'RE VERY OFF THE MARK.

Which franchise is the most consistent play-off team over the last decade? New England, they are almost never picking high in the draft. Same with the Steelers, the Seahawks, the Saints, the Chiefs and others.

You mention the Browns, but how were they playing under Hugh? They have turned around because of a culture change brought about by new Coaches. The Vikings and Bears have done the same.

You act is if talent can only be found in the top 5, talent can be found throughout the draft but what a team does with the talent, how they coach it and the expectation they set for it is more important.

Which number one picks of recent years are dominant game changers? You cite Garrett but what about Donald, Watt and Mack? All picked around or later than we are projected to pick.

A winning culture and the coaching expectation is more important than the talent difference between two players selected 5 or 6 picks apart.

What did I say you needed to win? Talenr, coaching and effort. Tom Brady and BB are the best coach and qb tandem of all time. (sorry guys I still say Montana best qb though). You don't think that has anything to do with it? Lol. Stop being dishonest you are saying the exact same things other people have said who dug themselves into a hole.

Again... Talent, effort and coaching. The browns got new coaching and are playing better. What does that tell you? They established a culture by winning a few games?! Or maybe they are coached better and playing with more effort? A winning culture is cute but doesn't actually mean anything in the real world.

Again the fact that you can find great players at other draft slots doesn't mean that winning this game gives makes us better than landing a player like Bosa.

This is the same rehashed arguments other people who wanted this win based off their own emotions have said.

It's one thing to say if a fan should or should not root for losses. If we were having that conversation I could concede to you that hoping for losses might not be the right thing to do but yet I still want to win in the FUTURE and not now in a lost season.

It's another thing to argue that winning this one game was better than getting Bosa. There is no evidence to back up that claim so you and everyone else like you change the arguments to points like you made above.

It's embarrassing honestly.
Originally posted by Buchy:
So it's safe to say there's a lot of conflict on the forum right now regarding winning games vs losing out for the number one overall pick. For most of this season I've been firmly on the side of tanking for the number one draft pick to get Bosa, I enjoyed the win over the Broncos and even more so because we were still in pole position.

Going into Sunday's game, I had an odd feeling that we were going to beat Seattle and texted as much to my brother beforehand. When I stopped to think about it, I couldn't put my finger on exactly what was driving that but it revolved around an improved defensive display vs Denver with Kittle balling out and the Offense (for the first half at least) putting on a real show. But as I thought harder about it I realized something else; we'd come out of the bye week flat against Tampa, albeit in the worst scenario for a West Coast team in terms of travel distance and time of day. We were humiliated and blown out by a bad team and, as Shanahan observed, for the first time we looked like a two win team. We then got rolled over in Seattle in a game which was close for a while before some huge swings led to a blow-out in Seattle's favour. And we didn't lie down.

Going into the Denver game we were 2-10, having lost our starting QB, RB, Rueben Foster, been decimated with injuries, carried serious holes in the roster with a lack of edge pressure and were running out the rookies and 2nd year players. But the players fought and didn't quit, they played with pride and for each other and the game meant something to them. In the 2nd half i think we were all expecting Denver to come back and win it 21-20 but it didn't happen. We stopped them on 4th down repeatedly, we might have botched the kneel downs at the end of the game but we held on - and it was a defensive victory, the side of the ball we've been most worried about stopped the Broncos and for the first time this season showed they were capable of closing out a game. And the rookies and 2nd year players had a huge role in doing so.

I picked against us on the WebZone Pick'Em for the Seattle game on Sunday. I thought the Denver game was maybe a one-off and I was wrong. The Defense came to play again, we moved the ball on Offense and we were two missed passes to Kittle away from hanging 30+ points on Seattle. But it was the attitude of the team that was the same, the guys played for each other, played hard, played aggressive and showed they had pride in themselves and that they cared. They were 3-10, had been humiliated by this team two weeks earlier, went down 0-6 to the early TD after losing yet another starter in Witherspoon (who had started playing well) and they took the game to them. The team could have folded but they didn't, they punched back right away with a 97 yard kick-off return immediately (with great blocking) and they went after Seattle. From Trent Taylor and his aggressive blocking, Pettis with the stiff-arm and and a disciplined but aggressive defensive display, the entire team showed pride in themselves, a desire for revenge and they out fought a good Seattle team to win it in Overtime.

The team showed character.

Now last season we finished strong with Jimmy G carrying us to 6 wins, but this season a young team is learning to win, through adversity, on their own without a saviour. This team had every reason and excuse available to mail it in, lose out and take the number one overall pick with the fans convincing ourselves that it was OK to do so. Growing pains, injuries, a horrible adversity laden season and inexperienced youth would have all been accepted by fans and pundits, but the team didn't do that. They played for each other and even more importantly they were excited and over-joyed when they made plays.

Now Nick Bosa might have been a good to great consolation prize for this season, but I now firmly think that one player, no matter how good, is not better for a franchise than 53 guys learning to win off their own back without relying on some superstar to bail them out. THAT is what championship teams are made of, this is young guys learning to make plays in tough situations and win and that reliance on their own ability will carry the team far further than a group of players who rely on one or two players and then quit if those guys are missing. How many franchises in this league are excused because those guys are missing? Because Megatron is injured, or Jones, or Rodgers?

This league has many franchises that are, or became, reliant on one or two key players and then write off a season with those players injured. They almost never amount to a franchise which is consistently competing to win it all and make it year in year out to the post-season. What would be the story if we lost out, took Bosa and missed next season from a training camp injury or suffered a career ending injury? We'd expect the players to step up but if they've never learned how to step up, at best we'd get another season of pain.

Our franchise has been through real adversity in the last two years and we're seeing the young players learn to over come it without being able to rely on superstars or veterans at every level of the team. That fire will make us, the record is secondary to the character, attitude and culture of the team.

This win over Seattle will be franchise changing for us because of the reasons above; because winning through adversity, without giving up, creates a culture worth more than one player, no matter how special.

BOOM!!! Says it all right there. Something that the tank-for-Boas crowd has to understand.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 53,898
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
The saints winning and the rams losing means it is highly likely saints will secure home field next week, which means the rams will have nothing to play for week 17 which means a victory for the 49ers which means a lower draft choice which means mediocrity for the next 10 years.

A bye? If the Bears win out and the Rams lose a game, they are tied and the Bears would get the bye.

Or we could also spoil their chances at a bye week.

thus cementing our image as always a bridesmaid
Originally posted by cciowa:
thus cementing our image as always a bridesmaid

You know, there are great players that turn out to be pretty great outside of the top 3 picks.
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by cciowa:
thus cementing our image as always a bridesmaid

You know, there are great players that turn out to be pretty great outside of the top 3 picks.
Not always a bridesmaid.... just recently
Quality post! I'll admit I was conflicted when the clock turned :00 but when I saw the video of the locker room reaction I knew this was a game we had to win. It showed us that this defense is learning to close games, it shows us that maybe one day we can be an elite team. It might not be this season or next season, but we will get there. It's a great locker room that fights for each other. Now we just have to overcome the injury bug.
Great post Buchy. These players and coaches work hard all week. Their goal is to win. I want them to achieve their goals.

If draft position is your goal, you achieve that by sucking. I don't want our team to suck. We don't suck anymore and that makes me more hopeful about our future rather than getting a #1 pick (lottery ticket) that might not pan out.
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Originally posted by susweel:



You know what? It doesn't matter.

If you don't see the value of a great coach establishing a reputation of playing well above his team's talent level, you don't. If you don't see that coach play a number of nobody's and developing some of them into gems, you don't. If you think all professional athletes play their hearts out with desperate determination and abandon, you don't see the value in getting a team to do that. If you don't see the value of installing a great system and getting players to play better and make far fewer mistakes as the season progresses, you don't.

If all of that means you are no longer the worst team in the league, then you don't get the first pick in the draft. It's reality, and there really is no ethical or smart way around it.

People here talk like not getting Bosa means we don't get anybody. We will still get a very high pick. Fan's confidence in their projections on who will succeed at this next level is absolutely and totally out of whack with history.

We'll pick fourth, or wherever. It's the league rules. Deal with it.
Honestly, it sucks that we don't hold that #1 pick currently.

But to beat the Seahawks was a great feeling, they have been the most hated team since 2013 for me.

So that's why i say it was worth losing that pick, but we could still end up with the #1 pick.

Still 2 more games to go anything can happen.

But let's not forget just because you have the #1 pick doesn't mean you get a guaranteed HOF.

We failed this in 2005.

You can get great players in the 2nd, it's a gamble no matter how you look at it.
I have never agreed with fans that would prefer tanking instead of the team trying to get some wins when the season is lost. If the team gets some wins, especially against good teams then it is a sign of improvement. It would be great to pick up a top player in the draft but great teams are built around drafting great players no matter what pick or round. The 49ers will be getting healthy next year and hopefully adding some FA and having a solid draft like they did last year with picks like pettis, warner and mcclitnchey.
Excellent and well thought out post!
Originally posted by GMniner805:
Honestly Bosa was the guy that could save the regime, two years in a row missing out on elite talent due to meaningless wins Chubbs, Saquon, and now Bosa.

SEA is still in the drivers seat for a playoff berth, 49ers haven't made the playoffs since Jim Harbaugh. I just don't see how this win is a turning point with SEA and LA so far ahead and AZ will soon have Bosa. If anything that win actually stuck a fork in Shanalynch.

Pure conjecture, lol.

[ Edited by zeppfan1 on Dec 18, 2018 at 2:24 PM ]
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