The win over the Seahawks will be the turning point going forward for the Niners | Page 2

Buchy · 2018-12-18T08:10:58-08:00

So it's safe to say there's a lot of conflict on the forum right now regarding winning games vs losing out for the number one overall pick. For most of this season I've been firmly on the side of tanking for the number one draft pick to get Bosa, I enjoyed the win over the Broncos and even more so because we were still in pole position. Going into Sunday's game, I had an odd feeling that we were going to beat Seattle and texted as much to my brother beforehand. When I stopped to think about it, I couldn't put my finger on exactly what was driving that but it revolved around an improved defensive display vs Denver with Kittle balling out and the Offense (for the first half at least) putting on a real show. But as I thought harder about it I realized something else; we'd come out of the bye week flat against Tampa, albeit in the worst scenario for a West Coast team in terms of travel distance and time of day. We were humiliated and blown out by a bad team and, as Shanahan observed, for the first time we looked like a two win team. We then got rolled over in Seattle in a game which was close for a while before some huge swings led to a blow-out in Seattle's favour. And we didn't lie down. Going into the Denver game we were 2-10, having lost our starting QB, RB, Rueben Foster, been decimated with injuries, carried serious holes in the roster with a lack of edge pressure and were running out the rookies and 2nd year players. But the players fought and didn't quit, they played with pride and for each other and the game meant something to them. In the 2nd half i think we were all expecting Denver to come back and win it 21-20 but it didn't happen. We stopped them on 4th down repeatedly, we might have botched the kneel downs at the end of the game but we held on - and it was a defensive victory, the side of the ball we've been most worried about stopped the Broncos and for the first time this season showed they were capable of closing out a game. And the rookies and 2nd year players had a huge role in doing so. I picked against us on the WebZone Pick'Em for the Seattle game on Sunday. I thought the Denver game was maybe a one-off and I was wrong. The Defense came to play again, we moved the ball on Offense and we were two missed passes to Kittle away from hanging 30+ points on Seattle. But it was the attitude of the team that was the same, the guys played for each other, played hard, played aggressive and showed they had pride in themselves and that they cared. They were 3-10, had been humiliated by this team two weeks earlier, went down 0-6 to the early TD after losing yet another starter in Witherspoon (who had started playing well) and they took the game to them. The team could have folded but they didn't, they punched back right away with a 97 yard kick-off return immediately (with great blocking) and they went after Seattle. From Trent Taylor and his aggressive blocking, Pettis with the stiff-arm and and a disciplined but aggressive defensive display, the entire team showed pride in themselves, a desire for revenge and they out fought a good Seattle team to win it in Overtime. The team showed character. Now last season we finished strong with Jimmy G carrying us to 6 wins, but this season a young team is learning to win, through adversity, on their own without a saviour. This team had every reason and excuse available to mail it in, lose out and take the number one overall pick with the fans convincing ourselves that it was OK to do so. Growing pains, injuries, a horrible adversity laden season and inexperienced youth would have all been accepted by fans and pundits, but the team didn't do that. They played for each other and even more importantly they were excited and over-joyed when they made plays. Now Nick Bosa might have been a good to great consolation prize for this season, but I now firmly think that one player, no matter how good, is not better for a franchise than 53 guys learning to win off their own back without relying on some superstar to bail them out. THAT is what championship teams are made of, this is young guys learning to make plays in tough situations and win and that reliance on their own ability will carry the team far further than a group of players who rely on one or two players and then quit if those guys are missing. How many franchises in this league are excused because those guys are missing? Because Megatron is injured, or Jones, or Rodgers? This league has many franchises that are, or became, reliant on one or two key players and then write off a season with those players injured. They almost never amount to a franchise which is consistently competing to win it all and make it year in year out to the post-season. What would be the story if we lost out, took Bosa and missed next season from a training camp injury or suffered a career ending injury? We'd expect the players to step up but if they've never learned how to step up, at best we'd get another season of pain. Our franchise has been through real adversity in the last two years and we're seeing the young players learn to over come it without being able to rely on superstars or veterans at every level of the team. That fire will make us, the record is secondary to the character, attitude and culture of the team. This win over Seattle will be franchise changing for us because of the reasons above; because winning through adversity, without giving up, creates a culture worth more than one player, no matter how special.

Dec 18, 2018 at 10:37 AM

#16

cciowa
Veteran
Posts: 60,541

Originally posted by 9erReign:
Turning point already happened last year against the Jags. Don't you remember?

we beat the best defense in the nfl. our o line is not as bad as we think and now we have a whole off season to get kyles offense down pat. 11 wins and playoffs. book it. oh wait... jimmy got hurt. never mind the team stunk before he got hurt but maybe it will be different

Dec 18, 2018 at 10:38 AM

#17

cciowa
Veteran
Posts: 60,541

Originally posted by Waterbear:
Honestly, you typed a lot but said very little. This idea that winning one game is better than any one player is complete baloney. How do people not see the hole in that logic?

If that was the case... you would cut Buckner for winning against the Rams. You would trade away Jimmy G for a win against the Bears right? Because one win means more for the team than any one player. LMAO.

Seriously some of you need to snap back to reality. We have had season after season where we get a late win that never carried over to a good start to the next season or even wins the next year period. WHY?! Because no one cares what you did a year ago, a week ago, or even a play ago. Why do you hear players say things like "we are just taking it game by game" or "any given Sunday"? It is because there is so much parody that you can not rest on a past win ever. No one cares.

this times infinity. it plays well with the homer base though

Dec 18, 2018 at 10:41 AM

#18

English
Moderator
Posts: 41,392

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
The saints winning and the rams losing means it is highly likely saints will secure home field next week, which means the rams will have nothing to play for week 17 which means a victory for the 49ers which means a lower draft choice which means mediocrity for the next 10 years.

People here love misery, eh?

Dec 18, 2018 at 10:41 AM

#19

BOI49er
Veteran
Posts: 4,967

What was the nickname of the defense for the only undefeated team in league history?

"The No Name Defense".

Dec 18, 2018 at 10:46 AM

#20

cciowa
Veteran
Posts: 60,541

Originally posted by BOI49er:
What was the nickname of the defense for the only undefeated team in league history?

"The No Name Defense".

now our defense is being compared to the 72 dolphins. good lord. i assume a thread saying. is our defense really as bad as we thought . forthcoming?

Dec 18, 2018 at 10:50 AM

#21

BOI49er
Veteran
Posts: 4,967

Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by BOI49er:
What was the nickname of the defense for the only undefeated team in league history?

"The No Name Defense".

now our defense is being compared to the 72 dolphins. good lord. i assume a thread saying. is our defense really as bad as we thought . forthcoming?

No. I'm saying teamwork is more important than 10 guys standing around waiting for Nick Bosa to make a play.

Dec 18, 2018 at 10:51 AM

#22

Buchy
Veteran
Posts: 2,833

Originally posted by Waterbear:
Honestly, you typed a lot but said very little. This idea that winning one game is better than any one player is complete baloney. How do people not see the hole in that logic?

If that was the case... you would cut Buckner for winning against the Rams. You would trade away Jimmy G for a win against the Bears right? Because one win means more for the team than any one player. LMAO.

Seriously some of you need to snap back to reality. We have had season after season where we get a late win that never carried over to a good start to the next season or even wins the next year period. WHY?! Because no one cares what you did a year ago, a week ago, or even a play ago. Why do you hear players say things like "we are just taking it game by game" or "any given Sunday"? It is because there is so much parody that you can not rest on a past win ever. No one cares.

Parity, parody is something different.

You are very far off the mark. The league history is littered with high drafted and highly rated players flaming out, being busts or suffering career ending injuries.

Pinning your hopes on drafting one guy and thinking that one guy is a guaranteed hit, HOF player or can single handedly carry the team in every game is naive at best, but frankly stupid. It's a gamble.

This is not one random win, it's not about notching a lucky W. This was out-fighting a good rival through strength of will and character with a team of inexperienced, young players.

[ Edited by Buchy on Dec 18, 2018 at 11:12 AM ]

Dec 18, 2018 at 11:13 AM

#23

Waterbear
Veteran
Posts: 18,527

Originally posted by Buchy:
Parity, parody is something different.

You are very far off the mark. The league history is littered with high drafted and highly rated players flaming out, being busts or suffering career ending injuries.

Pinning your hopes on drafting one guy and thinking that one guy is a guaranteed hit, HOF player or can single handedly carry the team in every game is naive at best, but frankly stupid. It's a gamble.

This is not one random win, it's not about notching a lucky W. This was out-fighting a good rival through strength of will and character.

Everyone knows my grammar sucks so let's not talk about that lol

There are draft busts ≠ winning this game > getting Bosa.

You and anyone else who have said the above statement can't give evidence to prove your stance because there is none. What there is though are plenty of examples like Garrett vs Thomas and seeing how one win hurt our team and helped the Browns. There are examples of the Jags who won so many games last year and had a "winning culture" that meant nothing this year.

Talent, coaching, and effort is what wins games. We have the coaching and effort imo but we lack the talent to compete for the Superbowl. Getting the highest pick possible gives you the best chance to actually get a game changing player plus getting a chance to coach the senior bowl would be huge. We used that to our advantage to build our last Superbowl team but I'm sure you forget that because anyone who shares your stance has a lack of history.

So I'm sorry but... YOU'RE VERY OFF THE MARK.

[ Edited by Waterbear on Dec 18, 2018 at 11:13 AM ]

Dec 18, 2018 at 11:16 AM

#24

Hysterikal
Veteran
Posts: 39,683

Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Originally posted by susweel:
tldr

This
lol,, the same thing was said with our little win streak last year..

Oh got ya. We are building a winning culture. It worked out for us this year for sure.

Dec 18, 2018 at 11:22 AM

#25

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Yet "one player" in Khalil Mack and Amari Cooper basically transformed their teams into division winners.

Sorry...this game is about talent. Winning can transform culture just as well but in reverse.

I know we need to justify losing out on a premier player at a premier need position but 99% of the players coming in already have good character, work ethics and strong belief in their abilities (winning makeup) but they ALL are leaning on the players next to them.

But the 7-1 record in December is nothing more than that once the final 2018 season whistle blows. Everything starts over after that but talent remains...

Dec 18, 2018 at 11:23 AM

#26

hello49
Veteran
Posts: 1,494

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
The saints winning and the rams losing means it is highly likely saints will secure home field next week, which means the rams will have nothing to play for week 17 which means a victory for the 49ers which means a lower draft choice which means mediocrity for the next 10 years.

The Rams still need to stay ahead of the Bears for the #2 seed, so they could still want to win the last week of the season......unless we beat the Bears this weekend.

Dec 18, 2018 at 11:24 AM

#27

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 131,882

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
The saints winning and the rams losing means it is highly likely saints will secure home field next week, which means the rams will have nothing to play for week 17 which means a victory for the 49ers which means a lower draft choice which means mediocrity for the next 10 years.

A bye? If the Bears win out and the Rams lose a game, they are tied and the Bears would get the bye.

Dec 18, 2018 at 11:29 AM

#28

GMniner805
Member
Posts: 1,960

Honestly Bosa was the guy that could save the regime, two years in a row missing out on elite talent due to meaningless wins

Chubbs, Saquon, and now Bosa.

SEA is still in the drivers seat for a playoff berth, 49ers haven't made the playoffs since Jim Harbaugh. I just don't see how this win is a turning point with SEA and LA so far ahead and AZ will soon have Bosa. If anything that win actually stuck a fork in Shanalynch.

Dec 18, 2018 at 11:29 AM

#29

Buchy
Veteran
Posts: 2,833

Originally posted by Waterbear:
Everyone knows my grammar sucks so let's not talk about that lol

There are draft busts ≠ winning this game > getting Bosa.

You and anyone else who have said the above statement can't give evidence to prove your stance because there is none. What there is though are plenty of examples like Garrett vs Thomas and seeing how one win hurt our team and helped the Browns. There are examples of the Jags who won so many games last year and had a "winning culture" that meant nothing this year.

Talent, coaching, and effort is what wins games. We have the coaching and effort imo but we lack the talent to compete for the Superbowl. Getting the highest pick possible gives you the best chance to actually get a game changing player plus getting a chance to coach the senior bowl would be huge. We used that to our advantage to build our last Superbowl team but I'm sure you forget that because anyone who shares your stance has a lack of history.

So I'm sorry but... YOU'RE VERY OFF THE MARK.

Which franchise is the most consistent play-off team over the last decade? New England, they are almost never picking high in the draft. Same with the Steelers, the Seahawks, the Saints, the Chiefs and others.

You mention the Browns, but how were they playing under Hugh? They have turned around because of a culture change brought about by new Coaches. The Vikings and Bears have done the same.

You act is if talent can only be found in the top 5, talent can be found throughout the draft but what a team does with the talent, how they coach it and the expectation they set for it is more important.

Which number one picks of recent years are dominant game changers? You cite Garrett but what about Donald, Watt and Mack? All picked around or later than we are projected to pick.

A winning culture and the coaching expectation is more important than the talent difference between two players selected 5 or 6 picks apart.

Dec 18, 2018 at 11:32 AM

#30

Buchy
Veteran
Posts: 2,833

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yet "one player" in Khalil Mack and Amari Cooper basically transformed their teams into division winners.

Sorry...this game is about talent. Winning can transform culture just as well but in reverse.

I know we need to justify losing out on a premier player at a premier need position but 99% of the players coming in already have good character, work ethics and strong belief in their abilities (winning makeup) but they ALL are leaning on the players next to them.

But the 7-1 record in December is nothing more than that once the final 2018 season whistle blows. Everything starts over after that but talent remains...

What did Mack and Cooper do for the Raiders last season? Their record was the same as ours, Mack is havi g a good season with the Bears but I give Fangio props for that too.

The Colts just shut out the Cowboys, how is that possible if Cooper is so amazingly talented??