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Team Conditioning Concerns

Originally posted by TD49ers:
Both Brady and Rice played or are playing into there 40's and missed minimal games over long careers. If we took those statistics and applied it to this team we would not have a list full of guys on IR and in shorts on the sidelines come gameday. Rice and to a point Brady played in a much more violent era of football. So to suggest that today is more taxing on the body may be not entirely accurate. Athletes today have the benefit of technology and science to fine tune their performance. The question is whether it is being used properly or at all. I not suggesting injuries should not happen. Its clear that the game of football is violent and is inherent to injuries. I am challenging whether the 49ers organization is doing the right amount or balance of conditioning/diet with their players because in the past 4 games, our players are on the ground alot; definitely more than the other team. The entire OL aside from Tomlinson is out or battling a major injury that makes them 50% starter for next week. The DB position, whom are mostly young....starters from week 1, all are out accept for Whitherspoon (we are in week 4). Is this attributed to the violence of the game? I don't buy what your selling, a factor but not the only cause.

I think you missed the point, which is that injuries can happen to anyone, at anyplace and anytime in the NFL. Even the best conditioned guys with the best genetics and the best diet. This is football, injuries are largely inevitable for most players.

The problem with fans is that they zero in on their own team and don't notice just how bad many other teams have it. The 49ers weren't even top 5 in the NFL in games missed due to injury last season. Other teams are having a ton of injury problems as well. Out of New England's 9 draft picks from this most recent draft, 6 are already on injured reserve. The Seahawks last night lost both Earl Thomas and a promising rookie TE to season ending injuries. Atlanta is one more injured safety away from holding tryouts at the local high school football field. You know injuries will happen, some years it will be better but in the end, its far more likely that the culprit is simple, s**tty luck than these ridiculous conspiracy theories about training camp being too hard, too soft, players being too dumb to properly take care of their bodies.

JJ Watt has been absolutely injury plagued the past few years. I doubt that his issues had anything to do with a lack of conditioning, work ethic or proper diet. Its just the nature of the game. Like I said in the other thread, just because you get into a car accident after some guy ran a red light doesn't make you a bad driver.
Originally posted by TD49ers:
Not so sure teams spend millions on conditioning, maybe in the form of weights and cardio equipment but I would suggest that they are not paying attention to any other metrics. Why would Brady choose to completely turn his back on BB and get his own trainer/dietitian? If I had to guess, NFL teams are still living in 1980 when it comes to training and conditioning.

Because Brady buys into a bunch of snake oil b******t from a guy who went on TV falsely claiming to be a medical doctor so that he could sell a greens supplement that he claimed could help cure AIDS, Parkinsons, Alzheimers and various types of cancer and then got hammered by the FTC for it. Someone who has been sued for fraud numerous times.

https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2015/10/09/tom-brady-alex-guerrero-neurosafe/

If anyone cared to look closely, however, there were a couple of problems with Dr. Alejandro Guerrero's claims. First, he wasn't a doctor of any kind—not a medical doctor, as he admitted in the infomercial—or a doctor of Oriental medicine, as he claimed to business associates, according to a sworn affidavit. The FTC would eventually bar Guerrero from ever again referring to himself as a doctor. In truth, Guerrero's degree was a master's in Chinese medicine from a college in California that no longer exists.
The other problem, of course, was that Alejandro Guerrero's Supreme Greens was a sham. Total nonsense. Modern-day snake oil. "This is just out and out quackery," says Barrie Cassileth, a bona-fide PhD in medical sociology and the founder of the Integrative Medicine Service at the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, who helped the FTC investigate Supreme Greens.
Turns out, Supreme Greens had never been scientifically tested. The "study"—the one in which Guerrero claimed that 192 terminally ill patients had survived thanks to Supreme Greens—never actually existed, he later admitted. The FTC found not a shred of evidence that Supreme Greens could cure or prevent cancer, AIDS, MS, Parkinson's, or any of the other ailments Guerrero had mentioned.
Cassileth says "cancer quackery" like Supreme Greens is a $40 billion-per-year industry. Over the years she has investigated dozens of similar products. And while the FTC did not allege that there was anything affirmatively harmful about Supreme Greens, Cassileth says that among the most pernicious effects of products like Supreme Greens is that they can delay cancer patients from seeking proper, evidence-based medical care. "This is fatal for many patients," she says.


The FTC also prohibited Guerrero from passing himself off as a doctor and set strict parameters for what he could and could not say regarding any food or dietary supplements. In some cases, the FTC limits its enforcement to a period of years. In Guerrero's case, though, it was a lifetime ban: He was forced to promise, in essence, never to do it again.
Spoiler alert: He did it again. Almost a decade later, the FTC discovered, Guerrero was hawking a new miracle product—a drink he claimed could prevent concussions. And this time, Guerrero would have a better pitchman than the "Dr. Guerrero" he'd played on television. He claimed to have Tom Brady—the greatest quarterback who ever lived, who by then was Guerrero's new best friend.


Lots of otherwise intelligent and wealthy people fall for these guru types, so Brady is definitely not alone in his insane views, like arguing that all you need to prevent sunburn is to be sufficiently hydrated. Russell Wilson and his magic concussion water is another example. The whole notion of "pliability" is pseudoscience b******t. Not lifting weights and just doing a lot of stretching exercises might work great for a QB who plays in a league that protects QBs more than ever, its not feasible for an offensive lineman or a linebacker that has to repeatedly make contact with other massive players on every single snap.

The reality is that Brady has an insane work ethic and outstanding genetics and would likely have thrived no matter what he ended up doing. Gronkowski has been part of the same program his entire career, somehow it hasn't made him a whole lot healthier.

Meanwhile the professionals who comprise NFL strength and training staffs tend to be at the very peak of their profession, employing the most PROVEN and scientifically backed training strategies to help improve physical performance and longevity. What they can't control however is what players do in their own time when they are not around, during the offseason time when the CBA prohibits them from working with any players.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Because Brady buys into a bunch of snake oil b******t from a guy who went on TV falsely claiming to be a medical doctor so that he could sell a greens supplement that he claimed could help cure AIDS, Parkinsons, Alzheimers and various types of cancer and then got hammered by the FTC for it. Someone who has been sued for fraud numerous times.

https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2015/10/09/tom-brady-alex-guerrero-neurosafe/

If anyone cared to look closely, however, there were a couple of problems with Dr. Alejandro Guerrero's claims. First, he wasn't a doctor of any kind—not a medical doctor, as he admitted in the infomercial—or a doctor of Oriental medicine, as he claimed to business associates, according to a sworn affidavit. The FTC would eventually bar Guerrero from ever again referring to himself as a doctor. In truth, Guerrero's degree was a master's in Chinese medicine from a college in California that no longer exists.
The other problem, of course, was that Alejandro Guerrero's Supreme Greens was a sham. Total nonsense. Modern-day snake oil. "This is just out and out quackery," says Barrie Cassileth, a bona-fide PhD in medical sociology and the founder of the Integrative Medicine Service at the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, who helped the FTC investigate Supreme Greens.
Turns out, Supreme Greens had never been scientifically tested. The "study"—the one in which Guerrero claimed that 192 terminally ill patients had survived thanks to Supreme Greens—never actually existed, he later admitted. The FTC found not a shred of evidence that Supreme Greens could cure or prevent cancer, AIDS, MS, Parkinson's, or any of the other ailments Guerrero had mentioned.
Cassileth says "cancer quackery" like Supreme Greens is a $40 billion-per-year industry. Over the years she has investigated dozens of similar products. And while the FTC did not allege that there was anything affirmatively harmful about Supreme Greens, Cassileth says that among the most pernicious effects of products like Supreme Greens is that they can delay cancer patients from seeking proper, evidence-based medical care. "This is fatal for many patients," she says.


The FTC also prohibited Guerrero from passing himself off as a doctor and set strict parameters for what he could and could not say regarding any food or dietary supplements. In some cases, the FTC limits its enforcement to a period of years. In Guerrero's case, though, it was a lifetime ban: He was forced to promise, in essence, never to do it again.
Spoiler alert: He did it again. Almost a decade later, the FTC discovered, Guerrero was hawking a new miracle product—a drink he claimed could prevent concussions. And this time, Guerrero would have a better pitchman than the "Dr. Guerrero" he'd played on television. He claimed to have Tom Brady—the greatest quarterback who ever lived, who by then was Guerrero's new best friend.


Lots of otherwise intelligent and wealthy people fall for these guru types, so Brady is definitely not alone in his insane views, like arguing that all you need to prevent sunburn is to be sufficiently hydrated. Russell Wilson and his magic concussion water is another example. The whole notion of "pliability" is pseudoscience b******t. Not lifting weights and just doing a lot of stretching exercises might work great for a QB who plays in a league that protects QBs more than ever, its not feasible for an offensive lineman or a linebacker that has to repeatedly make contact with other massive players on every single snap.

The reality is that Brady has an insane work ethic and outstanding genetics and would likely have thrived no matter what he ended up doing. Gronkowski has been part of the same program his entire career, somehow it hasn't made him a whole lot healthier.

Meanwhile the professionals who comprise NFL strength and training staffs tend to be at the very peak of their profession, employing the most PROVEN and scientifically backed training strategies to help improve physical performance and longevity. What they can't control however is what players do in their own time when they are not around, during the offseason time when the CBA prohibits them from working with any players.

Great response.
  • dj43
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 28,891
Originally posted by TD49ers:
Originally posted by dj43:
this

One of the headline stories this morning is the injury to Earl Thomas and Le'veon Bell's response to it: Players are well aware of the risk of injury and do whatever they can to avoid it. They also do whatever they can to protect themselves from the inevitability of losing earning time due to injury, including staying out of camp if the do not have a long-term contract that protects them in case of injury. As Bell said, "I will continue to be the 'bad guy,'" so that others will get the long-term contract they need.

Look around the NFL this morning. Injuries abound. The Seahawks not only lost Thomas for the season, they also lost rookie TE Will Dissly who was becoming an important part in their offense. They are just one example.

Football IS a brutal sport and players get injured despite the many precautions taken. Teams spend million$ on technology to protect their investment in players, yet players still get hurt. It is a bummer when your own team gets hit but it is inevitable.

Not so sure teams spend millions on conditioning, maybe in the form of weights and cardio equipment but I would suggest that they are not paying attention to any other metrics. Why would Brady choose to completely turn his back on BB and get his own trainer/dietitian? If I had to guess, NFL teams are still living in 1980 when it comes to training and conditioning.

With payrolls well over $100,000,000, teams definitely spend a lot to insure the health of the players. Each team has a dietitian on staff that plans a variety of meals that not only provide healthy food, but also allow for players with special dietary needs to get what they need as well.

Here is a link to an article that talks about some of the options available to players. One issue that is mentioned is overcoming unhealthy player preferences, such as fried foods that are common in the South. The piece is 10 years old but does give some insight into what teams provide in the way of sound nutrition.

https://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/tdmarch2008pg32.shtml

EDIT: One of the interesting notes in the article was how the Texans coded certain food choices according to nutritional values. So a turkey breast sandwich with jack cheese, lettuce and tomato on whole wheat bread to a gold star while a cheeseburger got a red dot based on the nutritional value versus caloric intake.
[ Edited by dj43 on Oct 1, 2018 at 12:03 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
It's not the injuries. It is the fact that fans overrated the depth on this team. Other than DL and RB and possibly OL, our depth sucks so bad to the point where we cannot sustain injuries.

Look at DAL, lost OL and they have no WRs and their MLB is hurt. They are sustaining it.

Add schedule and there you go.

Yes, I cringed when Lynch was spouting off about how proud he was of the roster.
So what I'm getting from this is

Brady= Tsar Nicholas II
Guerrero= Rasputin
Yup every team has injuries. Good teams with good coaches and rosters can overcome it.

The offense is injured but Shanny has done a good job making it look decent. Defense on the other hand.
[ Edited by Young2Rice on Oct 1, 2018 at 12:09 PM ]
I dont buy into the whole "injuries are random theres no way to predict and avoid them talk"

Sure some of the injuries are just bad luck but there are definite ways to cut down on your injury risk. To disregard this and blame it all on bad luck is imo half hearted.
The injuries come down to 2 things:
1. The players we have are injury prone
2. The strength conditioning, diet, mental condition and attitude of the team are not being put to the same standard as the nfl teams with the least injuries

The second one is far less of a factor than the first one but say for instance each time a player cuts 98% of the chance they tear an acl is based on random chance 1% is based on player biometrics and 1% is based on all the factors under #2. Sure they may still tear their acl regardless but having 1% better chance adds up when your talking about 50+ players on a roster.

This is the same reason every time the niners would play the seahawks during the harbs days tons of niners would get injured. The seahawks came in with the attitude of inflicting punishment and did. Its a full team attitude and conditioning that manifests itself on gameday into few injuries or multiple injuries.

Saying its all random is like saying every exercise at the gym will grow muscle equally effective. Its just flat out wrong. You want less injuries you bring in less injury prone players, change the attitude of the team, and make sure you have the best people for factors #2.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by TD49ers:
Both Brady and Rice played or are playing into there 40's and missed minimal games over long careers. If we took those statistics and applied it to this team we would not have a list full of guys on IR and in shorts on the sidelines come gameday. Rice and to a point Brady played in a much more violent era of football. So to suggest that today is more taxing on the body may be not entirely accurate. Athletes today have the benefit of technology and science to fine tune their performance. The question is whether it is being used properly or at all. I not suggesting injuries should not happen. Its clear that the game of football is violent and is inherent to injuries. I am challenging whether the 49ers organization is doing the right amount or balance of conditioning/diet with their players because in the past 4 games, our players are on the ground alot; definitely more than the other team. The entire OL aside from Tomlinson is out or battling a major injury that makes them 50% starter for next week. The DB position, whom are mostly young....starters from week 1, all are out accept for Whitherspoon (we are in week 4). Is this attributed to the violence of the game? I don't buy what your selling, a factor but not the only cause.

I think you missed the point, which is that injuries can happen to anyone, at anyplace and anytime in the NFL. Even the best conditioned guys with the best genetics and the best diet. This is football, injuries are largely inevitable for most players.

The problem with fans is that they zero in on their own team and don't notice just how bad many other teams have it. The 49ers weren't even top 5 in the NFL in games missed due to injury last season. Other teams are having a ton of injury problems as well. Out of New England's 9 draft picks from this most recent draft, 6 are already on injured reserve. The Seahawks last night lost both Earl Thomas and a promising rookie TE to season ending injuries. Atlanta is one more injured safety away from holding tryouts at the local high school football field. You know injuries will happen, some years it will be better but in the end, its far more likely that the culprit is simple, s**tty luck than these ridiculous conspiracy theories about training camp being too hard, too soft, players being too dumb to properly take care of their bodies.

JJ Watt has been absolutely injury plagued the past few years. I doubt that his issues had anything to do with a lack of conditioning, work ethic or proper diet. Its just the nature of the game. Like I said in the other thread, just because you get into a car accident after some guy ran a red light doesn't make you a bad driver.


Great post, Phoenix.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Yup every team has injuries. Good teams with good coaches and rosters can overcome it.

The offense is injured but Shanny has done a good job making it look decent. Defense on the other hand.

Yes BUT there's no way you can marginalize losing your FQB, a top 10 QB, for the season in week 3. THAT is not a "it happens to all teams" scenario - it MIGHT happen to 1 or 2 teams at most in a given year and unless you have one of the best backup qb's in the NFL and an absolutely stacked roster you won't overcome that over the long haul of a season. Just look at the Houston Texans who went from playoff contender to 4th overall pick with Watson going down last year.

Other injuries I can understand, but even outside of Jimmy G we are one the of top 5 most injured rosters right now with $45M of our salary cap on IR by week 3.

Originally posted by 49oz2superbowl:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Yup every team has injuries. Good teams with good coaches and rosters can overcome it.

The offense is injured but Shanny has done a good job making it look decent. Defense on the other hand.

Yes BUT there's no way you can marginalize losing your FQB, a top 10 QB, for the season in week 3. THAT is not a "it happens to all teams" scenario - it MIGHT happen to 1 or 2 teams at most in a given year and unless you have one of the best backup qb's in the NFL and an absolutely stacked roster you won't overcome that over the long haul of a season. Just look at the Houston Texans who went from playoff contender to 4th overall pick with Watson going down last year.

Other injuries I can understand, but even outside of Jimmy G we are one the of top 5 most injured rosters right now with $45M of our salary cap on IR by week 3.

Yes. Losing the starting QB hurts a lot. It exposes the team's weaknesses too.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
It seems like most of these injuries are lower body. I wonder if this is a result of the NFL rule changes. Players are afraid to go after the upper body since they might be called for helmet to helmet, so instead they target the lower body. Honestly, after that text book tackle made on Beathard yesterday that was called "roughing the passer," I don't know what defenders are allowed to do anymore.

Yes? No?
Originally posted by 49oz2superbowl:
Yes BUT there's no way you can marginalize losing your FQB, a top 10 QB, for the season in week 3. THAT is not a "it happens to all teams" scenario - it MIGHT happen to 1 or 2 teams at most in a given year and unless you have one of the best backup qb's in the NFL and an absolutely stacked roster you won't overcome that over the long haul of a season. Just look at the Houston Texans who went from playoff contender to 4th overall pick with Watson going down last year.

Other injuries I can understand, but even outside of Jimmy G we are one the of top 5 most injured rosters right now with $45M of our salary cap on IR by week 3.

That's why I like the AGL stat...it doesn't just look at the quantity of injuries but quality. Obviously losing a FQB 3 games into a season is going to carry more weight than losing your ST wedge buster.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 1, 2018 at 6:14 PM ]
We have a bad strength and conditioning program. It seems like every player at every position is hurt. That's really bad. Plus we have some players who are injury prone with injury history. It's all of that.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
The problem with fans is that they zero in on their own team and don't notice just how bad many other teams have it. The 49ers weren't even top 5 in the NFL in games missed due to injury last season. Other teams are having a ton of injury problems as well. Out of New England's 9 draft picks from this most recent draft, 6 are already on injured reserve. The Seahawks last night lost both Earl Thomas and a promising rookie TE to season ending injuries. Atlanta is one more injured safety away from holding tryouts at the local high school football field. You know injuries will happen, some years it will be better but in the end, its far more likely that the culprit is simple, s**tty luck than these ridiculous conspiracy theories about training camp being too hard, too soft, players being too dumb to properly take care of their bodies.

JJ Watt has been absolutely injury plagued the past few years. I doubt that his issues had anything to do with a lack of conditioning, work ethic or proper diet. Its just the nature of the game. Like I said in the other thread, just because you get into a car accident after some guy ran a red light doesn't make you a bad driver.
I agree completely. Also, you can extrapolate what you're talking about to offensive / defensive coordinators too. Let's look at Seattle. For five years, every Seattle fan has been complaining nonstop about how Darrell Bevell is "clearly the worst" offensive coordinator in the league. Now they go out and hire Brian Schottenheimer and their fans are making the same generic complaints about him. My point is that if you zero on your own team, you don't realize that other teams have the same problems and complaints. If Seattle fans would open their eyes and listen to what other fans are saying about their OCs, they'd come to the conclusion that all fans think their team is victimized by their coaching staff.

But yeah, back to injuries. There are so many variables that go into it. I hate listing IR count, because teams game the system all the time (e.g. redshirting players by putting them on IR). If Richard Sherman goes down with an injury, I don't consider that "bad luck" -- that's bringing in a player coming off a major injury, what the hell do you expect? Even Jimmy G, one of the lone question marks with him was his durability. No, I don't feel sorry for our team because Jimmy G took the moronic route of absorbing a hit to pick up a meaningless extra yard. That's not bad luck, that's just poor awareness on his part.

Injuries happen to all teams. Those with solid depth are going to survive them. Sure, there are sometimes insurmountable injuries (Jimmy G is probably one), but one player shouldn't make or break your entire team. Look at a team like the Patriots. They lose key players all the time (Hightower missed most of last year, Gronk is perpetually injured, etc) and they still win. The Eagles just won the Super Bowl with Nick ****ing Foles! Stop looking at this as "next year, this trend of injuries is going to change" and instead accept that this is closer to the norm than a curse of aberration.
[ Edited by theduke85 on Oct 2, 2018 at 11:47 AM ]
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