"Scheme Fit" vs. Football Players

Oakland-Niner · 2018-09-23T18:14:36-07:00

I understand the concept of scheme fit, but at the end of the day I'd much rather have football players. Sure, if you have the choice of two prospects that have shown they can play at a high level and one seems to be more of the fit, then you grab the fit. However, that's not what's happening . This FO is the problem. Kyle has a vision of fielding a team full of fast, athletic, players. The problem is, most of them have not proven to be great football players. Though he's more sophisticated, he's kind of taken the Al Davis approach looking for the guy that wows your stop watch. You don't believe me, look at who we drafted and bring in at free agency. Its a bunch of guys that ran fast at the combine, but didn't show much on the field. Why do you think we got them in later rounds or undrafted? Give me football players. You really think successful coaches look for scheme guys and build the team? You think the Super Bowl winning Seahawks and the legion of Boom drafted scheme? No, they drafted talent. The same thing with the 2012/13 Niners. You look for talent, and if your lucky enough, you get a handful of good "football players" you can scheme around. Great coaches scheme around talent, not the other way around. Sure there might be certain metrics that you prefer, "long levers," or tall "cbs." But that's only after they have proven they can play in college or the NFL. The NFL is hyper competitive and turnover is frequent. It you're waiting for the "perfect roster" to run your scheme, you wont last long. Look at our DBs. You really think just putting a bunch of fast guys out there is a receipt for success? Not at all. There are so many intangibles, that metrics should be a far second. Results matter in the NFL. What the "slower player" might not have in speed, he might make up in play diagnosis and instinct. As you see, many of our players speed and strength is completely nullified by their low football IQ or lack of doggedness. I'm sick of watching a bunch of athletic fast guys get blown out of the whole or miss a tackle because they hate contact. While you need a certain level of skill to compete in the NFL, you also need the mentality. Look no further than our Dline. Full of physical talent, void of real football skills. They are better suited for the WWE than the NFL.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:15 PM

Heroism
Veteran
Posts: 26,922

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
You think the Super Bowl winning Seahawks and the legion of Boom drafted scheme?

That's exactly what they did lol.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:19 PM

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 132,709

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
You think the Super Bowl winning Seahawks and the legion of Boom drafted scheme?

That's exactly what they did lol.

Every smart team drafts for scheme. New England, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, all those teams constantly draft for scheme. You want players who fit the offense and defense that you run, who have the potential to thrive in your system. Trent Baalke is a guy who drafted for whatever reason, even if the guys didn't fit what his coaches were trying to do.

New England long has had one of the tiniest draft boards in football. They identify those players who they believe can perform well in their system and focus only on those players, they aren't trying to win the Mel Kiper draft sweepstakes, they are just trying to find the guys who will perform at their best wearing Patriots uniform.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:22 PM

lamontb
Veteran
Posts: 33,520

Sherman was our biggest FA and he's not fast but fits our scheme. Easily the best move of the off season

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:25 PM

SmokeyJoe
Veteran
Posts: 14,225

Great coaches should be multiple in my opinion.

You get the best players you can and you design a scheme for those players.

Not sure setting up a specific system and drafting 'scheme fits' is the best way to build a team up (especially from the depths of where we were/are) in the era of free agency/hard salary cap.

[ Edited by SmokeyJoe on Sep 23, 2018 at 6:26 PM ]

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:29 PM

GoreGoreGore
10HourChicken
Posts: 61,823

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
You think the Super Bowl winning Seahawks and the legion of Boom drafted scheme?

That's exactly what they did lol.

you think that if Bobby Wagner went to another team he would suck? or Earl Thomas? or Bennet in his younger days? Kam? These guys were a good scheme fit, but they were also very good players. You need to draft both if you can, but more importantly, you need to draft the best players. Good coaches create their scheme's around their players.

there are positions where it's more important to get the scheme players, OL for example, especially if your running a zone run, you're not gonna want 6'5 350 lb maulers up front. but for the most part, if you're not gonna draft a player that looks to be the real deal because if doesn't fit your scheme, you most likely won't be a very succesful coach, and you'll have Marvin Lews, Del Rio, Fisher, type of careers. average but nothing special.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:30 PM

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 132,709

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Great coaches should be multiple in my opinion.

You get the best players you can and you design a scheme for those players.

Not sure setting up a specific system and drafting 'scheme fits' is the best way to build a team up (especially from the depths of where we were/are) in the era of free agency/hard salary cap.

Doesn't really make sense at all to me. Every great coach has largely had a defined system and found the best possible players who fit that system. You think Bill Walsh was out there looking for guys who fit best in other systems as opposed to what he wanted to run?

You define what you're going to run, on offense and defense, otherwise you wind up with the island of mismatched toys. Say you're running a zone blocking scheme, should you draft linemen who can barely move, just because that is who happens to be available? You run an offense that requires your CB's to play press coverage and you draft all 5'9", 180 pound CBs?

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:31 PM

Heroism
Veteran
Posts: 26,922

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
These guys were a good scheme fit

Glad we are in agreement that scheme fit is important.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:32 PM

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 132,709

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
you think that if Bobby Wagner went to another team he would suck? or Earl Thomas? or Bennet in his younger days? Kam? These guys were a good scheme fit, but they were also very good players. You need to draft both if you can, but more importantly, you need to draft the best players. Good coaches create their scheme's around their players.

there are positions where it's more important to get the scheme players, OL for example, especially if your running a zone run, you're not gonna want 6'5 350 lb maulers up front. but for the most part, if you're not gonna draft a player that looks to be the real deal because if doesn't fit your scheme, you most likely won't be a very succesful coach, and you'll have Marvin Lews, Del Rio, Fisher, type of careers. average but nothing special.

Bingo.

Nobody said that you have to draft guys who will suck in other schemes. The priority should always be players who will thrive in what you run. If they go on to ball out in other schemes, like I imagine guys like Foster and Buckner would, then so much the better. But first and foremost you look at how a player will function in what you most like to run, offensively and defensively.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:34 PM

GoreGoreGore
10HourChicken
Posts: 61,823

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Every smart team drafts for scheme. New England, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, all those teams constantly draft for scheme. You want players who fit the offense and defense that you run, who have the potential to thrive in your system. Trent Baalke is a guy who drafted for whatever reason, even if the guys didn't fit what his coaches were trying to do.

New England long has had one of the tiniest draft boards in football. They identify those players who they believe can perform well in their system and focus only on those players, they aren't trying to win the Mel Kiper draft sweepstakes, they are just trying to find the guys who will perform at their best wearing Patriots uniform.

Beli has adapted a lot throughout the years. At the beginning it was more about having a stout DL with physical LBs and Corners. that game has changed now, you need more speed, and he's gotten pass rushers with speed and an athletic secondary. then his offense has constantly evolved as well. he went with big, athletic TEs, (Rob and Hernandez) to smaller WRs who can get separation and just dink and dunk your way to a win lol.

when he got Randy, he adjusted his scheme to involve the deep ball more often. when he got Rob and Hernandez, he adjusted his scheme. same with the different type of players he's gotten on defense.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:35 PM

#10

Oakland-Niner
Member
Posts: 24,062

Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
You think the Super Bowl winning Seahawks and the legion of Boom drafted scheme?

That's exactly what they did lol.

No. They drafted great football players. Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner, Bennett, Sherman and Kam would be great regardless of scheme. You just drank the koolaid.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:37 PM

#11

NYniner85
Veteran
Posts: 119,478

Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
You think the Super Bowl winning Seahawks and the legion of Boom drafted scheme?

That's exactly what they did lol.

Hahaha

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:38 PM

#12

Oakland-Niner
Member
Posts: 24,062

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
You think the Super Bowl winning Seahawks and the legion of Boom drafted scheme?

That's exactly what they did lol.

Every smart team drafts for scheme. New England, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, all those teams constantly draft for scheme. You want players who fit the offense and defense that you run, who have the potential to thrive in your system. Trent Baalke is a guy who drafted for whatever reason, even if the guys didn't fit what his coaches were trying to do.

New England long has had one of the tiniest draft boards in football. They identify those players who they believe can perform well in their system and focus only on those players, they aren't trying to win the Mel Kiper draft sweepstakes, they are just trying to find the guys who will perform at their best wearing Patriots uniform.

NE is a poor example. Let's see how competitive they are without Tom and Billy. Those two are that elite. Also, drafting a player or two for certain situations is a lot different than trying to design the whole team that way.

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:39 PM

#13

Heroism
Veteran
Posts: 26,922

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
No. They drafted great football players. Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner, Bennett, Sherman and Kam would be great regardless of scheme. You just drank the koolaid.

Being a scheme fit doesn't preclude a player from being a great football player. They're not mutually exclusive.

Are we just looking for things to complain about today? Isn't there enough with what transpired today?

Sep 23, 2018 at 6:39 PM

#14

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 132,709

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
No. They drafted great football players. Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner, Bennett, Sherman and Kam would be great regardless of scheme. You just drank the koolaid.

Who fit perfectly in their scheme. Carroll has talked about it, that they were targeting players with specific traits when building their defense. Every successful team does that. Carroll specifically described a 5 year plan that he had and the style of players he wanted on offense and defense and that is the approach that they took when developing their draft boards.