System or talent

Originally posted by ChazBoner:
offense, system. Defense, talent.

The Bill Walsh way.

Originally posted by 15crabtree:
I am curious to understand for some reason in the past 2 drafts we only get system guys compared to talent .i give Kyle his card for coaching but I thought a coach can coach .we have no rb or. seeing talent being pass because they are not system is not gonna cut it .i notice on the board when it comes to free agents or draftee well he is a guy who knows the system .so would you rather a system player who is garbage ..,or a talent who can learn the system ?

No system will make a "garbage" player useful. However, a good system will allow average players to excel. The '81 championship team is a good example. Freddie Solomon was nothing special but Walsh used his quickness. The RBs were totally forgettable. The starting LT was undersized yet quick enough to be useful in Walsh's system. Dwight Clark was a 12th round pick who Walsh felt would be useful in his system. As time passed, Walsh plugged in more talent but guys like Hollywood Henderson proved that talent alone is not enough.

When you start out with something new, you need guys who can at least demonstrate what needs to be done even if they are not able to do it consistently in a game. Brian Hoyer is a good example. Had Shanahan been limited to a guy who was still learning the system as he was trying to execute it, the offensive development would have been slowed.

The proof is in the numbers. Shanahan's system in Atlanta was record-setting. Last year's team was sorely devoid of talent but had a lot of guys that began to put it in play and were competitive even though they were not winning. Hence, when Garappolo took over, the system was well enough understood that they won. Now, through two preseason games, the 49er offense has been the most productive in terms of yardage in the league.

It takes both but a good system will allow an average player to play above his talent where a talented player in a poor system is wasted.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:

we could have had Landry and Pettis this year.

really hope that McGlinchey blows me away and becomes the next Joe Staley. Otherwise......damn.

Landry wasn't getting drafted at 9...dude fell to the 2nd because of LT injury potential. Could they have worked some magic to get both guys in the 2nd but thinking you can just pull off multiple trades to make it work isn't realistic.

McGlich doesn't have to be the next Joe Staley to be a successful pick...solid RT for the next 10 yrs would be pretty solid.

Going to let this thread stay as long as the convo remains on the specific topic of "system or talent." If it turns into something else, it will be merged. Anyone attempting to turn it into something else will have to sweep the kitchen for a week.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
The best coaches can adapt their game to the more talented players they have. Its nearly impossible fill every position with guys who fit the system. Especially when the owers fire coaches on average every few years.

That depends on what you measure "best" coaches as. BB is definitely a system guy. How many times has that guy traded back in each draft? All. The. Time. Why? Because they get system fit guys. Wes Welker was a nobody who was cut by the Chargers before he got in BB's system. How many Pats players have gotten huge contracts after leaving and then stunk it up - we had a few of those during the Nolan/Singletary years.

Bill Walsh was a system guy. Tom Landry was a system guy.

Nick Saban runs his defensive system but always looks for blue chip prospects and they are talent guys on offense.

Mike Shanahan was a system guy. All those late round RB's getting 1500+ yards.

Mike Holmgren was a system guy.

The best system guys start seeing the future in the league and start adapting their system, not around their own players' strengths but the weaknesses of the league trends and start identifying guys who can exploit those weaknesses.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
That depends on what you measure "best" coaches as. BB is definitely a system guy. How many times has that guy traded back in each draft? All. The. Time. Why? Because they get system fit guys. Wes Welker was a nobody who was cut by the Chargers before he got in BB's system. How many Pats players have gotten huge contracts after leaving and then stunk it up - we had a few of those during the Nolan/Singletary years.

Bill Walsh was a system guy. Tom Landry was a system guy.

Nick Saban runs his defensive system but always looks for blue chip prospects and they are talent guys on offense.

Mike Shanahan was a system guy. All those late round RB's getting 1500+ yards.

Mike Holmgren was a system guy.

The best system guys start seeing the future in the league and start adapting their system, not around their own players' strengths but the weaknesses of the league trends and start identifying guys who can exploit those weaknesses.

A+ post jonnyDel… I was thinking of GOAT Coach Walsh and Mike Shanahan...but you got the entire crew.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
The best coaches can adapt their game to the more talented players they have. Its nearly impossible fill every position with guys who fit the system. Especially when the owers fire coaches on average every few years.

That depends on what you measure "best" coaches as. BB is definitely a system guy. How many times has that guy traded back in each draft? All. The. Time. Why? Because they get system fit guys. Wes Welker was a nobody who was cut by the Chargers before he got in BB's system. How many Pats players have gotten huge contracts after leaving and then stunk it up - we had a few of those during the Nolan/Singletary years.

Bill Walsh was a system guy. Tom Landry was a system guy.

Nick Saban runs his defensive system but always looks for blue chip prospects and they are talent guys on offense.

Mike Shanahan was a system guy. All those late round RB's getting 1500+ yards.

Mike Holmgren was a system guy.

The best system guys start seeing the future in the league and start adapting their system, not around their own players' strengths but the weaknesses of the league trends and start identifying guys who can exploit those weaknesses.

I remember reading about how Walsh used the position of the umpire just behind the linebackers to be used as "picks" for the offense. Dwight Clark said the first time he went over the middle and caught a pass, he waited for what felt like 10 seconds before anybody hit him. He had no idea anyone could get that open right over the middle of the field. The official screened off the defense just as Walsh had described. It wasn't a weakness per se but it did demonstrate what a system can do if one has the vision to create it well.

(ancient history )

Originally posted by ChazBoner:
offense, system. Defense, talent.

It is always both, perhaps one more prioritize over the other. Our defenders are somewhat talented, but why are we piling up all these Richard Sherman mold big cornerbacks, well because it is a system fit.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:
we could have had Landry and Pettis this year.

really hope that McGlinchey blows me away and becomes the next Joe Staley. Otherwise......damn.

Shanahan's expertiese on offense shows up in the lower rounds. Example would be Richie James, Bourne and Brieda. A good coach with exprience can spot those *system fit* diamonds in the rough. Walsh was able to spot Dwight Clark in (I think) the 12th round in those days. Dwight would be an undrafted WR nowadays. Kyle's inexprence shows up on defense, and thats why I think John's a good match for him. ShanaLynch has drafted some pretty decent low round DB's - and again I think it's John's experience as a 10+ year nfl DB veteran that shows up there to get those diamonds in the rough. Walsh's defensive acumen shows up when he chose Fred Dean and drafted Charles Haley because he played DE and Tight end (I think) at San Jose State. Niether John or Kyle have played defensive end so I can see where they have inexperience at the defensive end position and can't spot those diamonds in the rough like where their area of expertiese is. I just hope next year they kill it at the edge rusher position - I just have a gut feeling that's going to be our achillies heel on defense this year.

Systent

Yes.