There are 421 users in the forums
Originally posted by defenderDX:
gotcha gotcha. I had forgotten about the 3-level stretch the sail-concept creates. forgot about the flat route. almost like a triangle concept.
Originally posted by thl408:
What jd is calling the Ohio concept is what I've referred to as the Fade-Out combination. Sail is a three route combo.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by defenderDX:
gotcha gotcha. I had forgotten about the 3-level stretch the sail-concept creates. forgot about the flat route. almost like a triangle concept.
Almost, yeah, a triangle is any concept that creates a vertical and horizontal stretch. A spot concept, for example, is this kind of play. The "hank" is another and others.
Originally posted by thl408:
This was a key 3rd down conversion on the TD drive to get within 2 points.
To CJ's right is a triangle stretch. Red + orange is the "Double Posts" concept which is a horizontal stretch. Red + Yellow is a vertical stretch. The vertical stretch can be used on a Hook defender. The Double Posts are for Cover1 coverages.
I can't tell what coverage WAS is in. My guess is it's Cover6 with the field safety playing Cover2 (trips side) since he gets into a back peddle immediately after the snap, a sign of Cover2.
Hikutini's (#83) route draws the attention of the blue zone defender (vertical stretch) and forces him to gain depth and carry Hikutini up the seam. This earns Taylor room to work his route.
Taylor knows he's in a soft spot of a zone and starts to slowly back his way closer to the first down line (35 yard line).
By the time Taylor catches the pass, he's just one yard shy of the first down and easily converts. CJ has time and throws with good form here. +10 yards.
Originally posted by jonnydel:This play (post #68) is tied to the play in post #70 with what I think are identical route combinations on the trips side. I thought it was Double Posts (what you called Double Digs). What I wanted to mention is that on the play in post #70 (catch by Taylor), CJ chose to work the trips side versus Cover2 zone.
So, to touch on the above mentioned concept and play. Here it is.
Here, we're going to run a "Double DIG" concept on the 3 receiver side and an "Ohio" concept on the 2 side. We motion Kittle across and the safeties swap, revealing zone coverage and the inside defender at the bottom makes sure the corner knows he's motioned, which is going to flip the coverage for WAS. They're playing a cover-6. Which is 2+4. It's cover 4 at the multiple receiver side and cover 2 zone on the other. This is great recognition by CJ to see this and know the "Ohio" beats the 2 deep zone on that side of the field. As, like I had up earlier, "Our Ohio concept is a two-safety beater designed to stress the corner. In Ohio the inside receiver runs a 4 step speed out. This can't be stopped if run the correct way."
From this shot right at the snap you can see the cover 6 with 2 quarters zones on the bottom and a deep 1/2 up top. This puts the read on the corner(yellow).
Again, from the book on the "Ohio": "The outside receiver runs a protection release fade. He must protect the speed out by releasing outside the corner. He takes his inside arm and rips it through the defender's outside shoulder, running and settling in the vacuum between the safety and the corner". Garcon runs this route perfectly.
"If the corner peaks, and is not affected by the protection release, the quarterback throws the fade in the vacuum between the safety and the corner."
Drops it in the "honey hole" making sure not to lead the receiver too far downfield into the safety.
this is, literally, textbook execution of this play. Great job all around and a great read and throw by CJ. It also shows that he's actually reading these defenses at an NFL level and not throwing the same routes every time against different coverage's.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
This was one of the plays I was referring to in the OP about recognizing different ways to run coverage. To me, it looks like a "cover 3 soft buzz match" where the single receiver side safety comes down as the hook/curl defender and the LB plays flat/curl but is playing a soft coverage(hence the "buzz" for backer flat/hook responsibility). The middle safety doesn't have to roll over to the middle because the hook/curl safety is going to match any vertical route, but since there's no vertical in his zone he's free to attack downhill. They run this same coverage later and CJ doesn't recognize it correctly and Taylor gets hammered by the hook/curl safety.
Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
All these route combos have different names in different systems... but what doesn't change is the concepts they are designed with... for example, you can place three receivers at three different levels in a vertical stretch on the outside column of the field... the receivers can come out of different formations, from different sides of the ball, with receivers switching routes etc., but at the end of the day it is the same play using the same concept...
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by jonnydel:This play (post #68) is tied to the play in post #70 with what I think are identical route combinations on the trips side. I thought it was Double Posts (what you called Double Digs). What I wanted to mention is that on the play in post #70 (catch by Taylor), CJ chose to work the trips side versus Cover2 zone.
So, to touch on the above mentioned concept and play. Here it is.
Here, we're going to run a "Double DIG" concept on the 3 receiver side and an "Ohio" concept on the 2 side. We motion Kittle across and the safeties swap, revealing zone coverage and the inside defender at the bottom makes sure the corner knows he's motioned, which is going to flip the coverage for WAS. They're playing a cover-6. Which is 2+4. It's cover 4 at the multiple receiver side and cover 2 zone on the other. This is great recognition by CJ to see this and know the "Ohio" beats the 2 deep zone on that side of the field. As, like I had up earlier, "Our Ohio concept is a two-safety beater designed to stress the corner. In Ohio the inside receiver runs a 4 step speed out. This can't be stopped if run the correct way."
From this shot right at the snap you can see the cover 6 with 2 quarters zones on the bottom and a deep 1/2 up top. This puts the read on the corner(yellow).
Again, from the book on the "Ohio": "The outside receiver runs a protection release fade. He must protect the speed out by releasing outside the corner. He takes his inside arm and rips it through the defender's outside shoulder, running and settling in the vacuum between the safety and the corner". Garcon runs this route perfectly.
"If the corner peaks, and is not affected by the protection release, the quarterback throws the fade in the vacuum between the safety and the corner."
Drops it in the "honey hole" making sure not to lead the receiver too far downfield into the safety.
this is, literally, textbook execution of this play. Great job all around and a great read and throw by CJ. It also shows that he's actually reading these defenses at an NFL level and not throwing the same routes every time against different coverage's.
In this play you cut up in post #68, CJ chose not to work the trips side because that three route combo was going against Quarters. And in the gif you posted, the three route combo got no one open against Quarters. CJ choosing the correct concept to work.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Yep, great point. Because these are tried and true concepts you know they work and they will continue to work. However, because defenders are taught to recognize these things as weaknesses in their defense you have to run multiple concepts from the same formations and also new ways to get players into those positions in time. That's what makes Shanny such a great offensive mind, IMO. He knows how to get his players into the right places, in the right time, against the right coverage's.
To me, there's no comparison between him and Chip. Chip had some great play designs but instead of volume to confuse defenders or different ways to run the same concepts, he relied upon tempo. It's why our teams would start out strong, but then bomb in the 2nd and 3rd quarters after defenses had seen what we'd run out of different formations and we didn't have anything else until Chip could put it together and put new stuff out there in the 4th.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
This was one of the plays I was referring to in the OP about recognizing different ways to run coverage. To me, it looks like a "cover 3 soft buzz match" where the single receiver side safety comes down as the hook/curl defender and the LB plays flat/curl but is playing a soft coverage(hence the "buzz" for backer flat/hook responsibility). The middle safety doesn't have to roll over to the middle because the hook/curl safety is going to match any vertical route, but since there's no vertical in his zone he's free to attack downhill. They run this same coverage later and CJ doesn't recognize it correctly and Taylor gets hammered by the hook/curl safety.
Yeah I thought it might be Cover3 but where is the middle safety? He seems to be playing cover2. Your bolded explanation makes sense.
Originally posted by jonnydel:I think it helps a lot to give each route combination a term. It allows vertical and horizontal stretches to be differentiated from one another. We can say Smash, Ohio, Sail, Drive, Sucker, etc. Theses are all vertical stretches, but by using those terms we know exactly what the routes are and what area of the field it attacks.
Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
All these route combos have different names in different systems... but what doesn't change is the concepts they are designed with... for example, you can place three receivers at three different levels in a vertical stretch on the outside column of the field... the receivers can come out of different formations, from different sides of the ball, with receivers switching routes etc., but at the end of the day it is the same play using the same concept...
Yep, great point. Because these are tried and true concepts you know they work and they will continue to work. However, because defenders are taught to recognize these things as weaknesses in their defense you have to run multiple concepts from the same formations and also new ways to get players into those positions in time. That's what makes Shanny such a great offensive mind, IMO. He knows how to get his players into the right places, in the right time, against the right coverage's.
To me, there's no comparison between him and Chip. Chip had some great play designs but instead of volume to confuse defenders or different ways to run the same concepts, he relied upon tempo. It's why our teams would start out strong, but then bomb in the 2nd and 3rd quarters after defenses had seen what we'd run out of different formations and we didn't have anything else until Chip could put it together and put new stuff out there in the 4th.
Originally posted by thl408:I think it helps a lot to give each route combination a term. It allows vertical and horizontal stretches to be differentiated from one another. We can say Smash, Ohio, Sail, Drive, Sucker, etc. Theses are all vertical stretches, but by using those terms we know exactly what the routes are and what area of the field it attacks.Originally posted by jonnydel:Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:All these route combos have different names in different systems... but what doesn't change is the concepts they are designed with... for example, you can place three receivers at three different levels in a vertical stretch on the outside column of the field... the receivers can come out of different formations, from different sides of the ball, with receivers switching routes etc., but at the end of the day it is the same play using the same concept...
Yep, great point. Because these are tried and true concepts you know they work and they will continue to work. However, because defenders are taught to recognize these things as weaknesses in their defense you have to run multiple concepts from the same formations and also new ways to get players into those positions in time. That's what makes Shanny such a great offensive mind, IMO. He knows how to get his players into the right places, in the right time, against the right coverage's.
To me, there's no comparison between him and Chip. Chip had some great play designs but instead of volume to confuse defenders or different ways to run the same concepts, he relied upon tempo. It's why our teams would start out strong, but then bomb in the 2nd and 3rd quarters after defenses had seen what we'd run out of different formations and we didn't have anything else until Chip could put it together and put new stuff out there in the 4th.
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by jonnydel:I think it helps a lot to give each route combination a term. It allows vertical and horizontal stretches to be differentiated from one another. We can say Smash, Ohio, Sail, Drive, Sucker, etc. Theses are all vertical stretches, but by using those terms we know exactly what the routes are and what area of the field it attacks.
Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
All these route combos have different names in different systems... but what doesn't change is the concepts they are designed with... for example, you can place three receivers at three different levels in a vertical stretch on the outside column of the field... the receivers can come out of different formations, from different sides of the ball, with receivers switching routes etc., but at the end of the day it is the same play using the same concept...
Yep, great point. Because these are tried and true concepts you know they work and they will continue to work. However, because defenders are taught to recognize these things as weaknesses in their defense you have to run multiple concepts from the same formations and also new ways to get players into those positions in time. That's what makes Shanny such a great offensive mind, IMO. He knows how to get his players into the right places, in the right time, against the right coverage's.
To me, there's no comparison between him and Chip. Chip had some great play designs but instead of volume to confuse defenders or different ways to run the same concepts, he relied upon tempo. It's why our teams would start out strong, but then bomb in the 2nd and 3rd quarters after defenses had seen what we'd run out of different formations and we didn't have anything else until Chip could put it together and put new stuff out there in the 4th.
Spot, Drive and Mesh are my personal favorite concepts. Speaking of Drive have any of you guys seen it with Kyle yet?
Originally posted by thl408:
Here's the second screen to Thompson. Well designed play with window dressing. 49ers are in Cover3 so with all the defenders watching the backfield, the dressing will be captivating to watch for zone defenders.
There's some familiarity in playbook from when Kyle was OC with McVay on board, then McVay staying on board as OC when Gruden came on as HC. We've seen the 49ers use similar motion and hit Goodwin on a long bomb (MIN preseason). WAS does the same thing here with orbit motion, then playaction.
The orbit motion draws the attention of Coyle, way more than it should.
Coyle's eyes are fixated on the WR as if he has a chance to even defend it. He should be worrying about what's in front of him, like the 4 OL setting up the screen.
+20 yards. No awareness from XCooper and DJJones, the 2 interior DL. If you're a bad pass rusher and you blow by the OL in front of you, think screen pass.
Originally posted by Lobo49er:
Man were we spoiled with years of good MLB play diagnosing these quickly and blowing them up.
Rueben. Please get better.
