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Originally posted by Willisfn4life:Originally posted by NCommand:But they get to hold past 5 yards and prison rape WR's during and after the whistle.
I doubt our young team will be given that same luxury. Haha
Lol! They were all young at one time too. When I go back and watch them five seasons ago and their secondary were all young bucks then, it was the exact same thing.
Which is about when Saleh was there.
Originally posted by jonnydel:I had a great discussion with THL408 on the Fangio blitz concept. My understanding, and THL, go ahead and correct me because I don't remember all the technical details. But a 3-4 means 3 down linemen, and if a linebacker rusher, it's technically a blitz. But if you are a 4-3, and four guys are rushing, it's not a blitz. But it is a 4-3 blitz if one of the 3 linebackers are blitzing. ...or something like that...
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Joecool:
I think 70% of the goal for this D is to stuff the run. Not just stuff but literally shut it down. Then the other 29% is to not allow a deep pass. Last 1% is to try to make the underneath stuff as difficult as possible.
SEA has showed over and over again that the opponent will eventually make a mistake, miss a pass or two, or get impatient.
What is awesome is that 3 deep works great in the red zone because the defense is already accustomed to 8 in the box to make the 0 to 10 yards locked down. Then the 3 DB's have less space to cover and lock it all down. The defense doesn't need to switch to an 8 man in the box and play different like most teams do.
That's pretty much the standard goal of every defense - be it 3-4, 4-3, eagle 5-2, 46, or flex. *How* they do it is interesting. This defense will be a gap penetration defense. Fangio's defense was the zone blitz where you create turnovers via the unexpected LB coming free and either sacking the QB or putting heat and creating a turnover by making the QB misread the defense. This defense is basically a nickel defense that is blitzing on every down to stop the run, by gap penetrating and putting that strong safety as the 8th man at the LOS. That's why the Corners have to play off coverage to not let the WR's get behind them. Eventually, this defense will get to the QB (and I think this is what the main idea of this defense is) and this defense gets tougher and tougher as the defense is pushed back towards their own end zone. The Tampa Two was not a *bend but don't break defense* and to me, once we have that Edge Rusher (we already have Warren Sapp 2.0 in Solomon and John Lynch 2.0 in Eric Reid) this will be a shut down defense.
Well, it is and it isn't. If you're thinking of the Jon Gruden era tampa 2, not as much. But, if you're talking about Dungy's original design, it is. It's one the forces a defense to take short passes over the middle. In the tampa 2, which is nearly a cover 3, your "will" backer has to be a great tackler. Because the one weakspot is going to be over the middle and your free cover man is going to be from the weakside. So, he'll constantly be tasked with tackling WR's and RB's over the middle 1v1 because of the matchup problems. Tampa was amazing at it because they had Derrick Brooks who was a freak and a HOF LB.
In regards to Fangio - not to sound rude, but it wasn't a zone blitz based defense at all. When I think of zone-blitz based I think of Dom Capers and Dick LeBeu. In our base 3-4 you could say it was zone-blitz because we were always bringing one of our OLB's as a 4th rusher/lineman, but other than that it was still almost always 7 man coverage and we only played base 3-4 30% of the time. In nickel we were a 3 deep based scheme, mostly playing either cover 3 or cover 6 with matching zone principles.
Originally posted by thl408:Very interesting stuff in that presser. I question why the CBs are taught to not turn around and try to locate the ball. If the pass is underthrown, there's no chance for an INT if the CB doesn't turn and locate. I hope it doesn't result in many defensive PIs either. But good to know when we watch the CBs this season.
The other tidbit I found interesting is how Saleh mentioned his vision of the DL is to have complimentary skillsets within the DL rotation. He also passively acknowledged that it's not quite there yet. Can't change everything in one offseason. But to know that the end goal is to have players that are opposites rotating in and out makes me think he wants to create matchup problems for OLs. Be able to throw changeups throughout the game by forcing individual OLmen to adjust to speed guys and power guys. For example AA on base downs, then Elvis on passing downs - total opposites in build.
Originally posted by Giedi:Don't think I said all that. When a 3-4 OLB rushes the passer, I don't consider that a blitz if it's a standard 4 man rush with 7 in coverage. That would mean Fangio is blitzing on most of the plays and that's not right. If I had to make a guess, I'd say Fangio played more man coverage than zone the rare times he blitzed (rush 5+). He did throw in some fire zone blitzes though (zone blitz).
I had a great discussion with THL408 on the Fangio blitz concept. My understanding, and THL, go ahead and correct me because I don't remember all the technical details. But a 3-4 means 3 down linemen, and if a linebacker rusher, it's technically a blitz. But if you are a 4-3, and four guys are rushing, it's not a blitz. But it is a 4-3 blitz if one of the 3 linebackers are blitzing. ...or something like that...
Anyway, Dungy gave a football clinic and it was written up in on of the older College football Strategy books they publish annually, and he said the key in his Dungy defense was the strong safety (I wish I bought the copy in the bookstore, but it was a great rendition of the Tampa Two) and so, it goes like this. Just as the Seifert 3-4 rotated around the elephant position and where Charles or Fred would rush or drop into coverage, in the Dungy/Kiffen defense, the guy who keyed the defense was the strong safety. Lynch was that guy, depending on where he dropped into coverage or where his stepped up and blitzed, the whole defense would key that and play to what Lynch did. Lynch was the 8th man in that 8 man front and if he dropped into coverage, that turned it into a 7 man front, and the whole gap assignments changed with that simple repositioning. The only guy thinking in his defense was John Lynch, and everybody else just reacted to what he did. It was a very simple defense with just gap assignments for each player and/or zone assignments depending on the coverage called. Nobody thought, everybody just reacted - the only guy keying that defense was John Lynch. It worked and I can see Saleh implementing some of those principles into his version of the 4-3 under. This defense goes all the way back to Seifert and this defense (or versions of it) has won a lot of super bowls.
Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:I just realized we now have a GM who could properly coach the DBs.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:Don't think I said all that. When a 3-4 OLB rushes the passer, I don't consider that a blitz if it's a standard 4 man rush with 7 in coverage. That would mean Fangio is blitzing on most of the plays and that's not right. If I had to make a guess, I'd say Fangio played more man coverage than zone the rare times he blitzed (rush 5+). He did throw in some fire zone blitzes though (zone blitz).
I had a great discussion with THL408 on the Fangio blitz concept. My understanding, and THL, go ahead and correct me because I don't remember all the technical details. But a 3-4 means 3 down linemen, and if a linebacker rusher, it's technically a blitz. But if you are a 4-3, and four guys are rushing, it's not a blitz. But it is a 4-3 blitz if one of the 3 linebackers are blitzing. ...or something like that...
Anyway, Dungy gave a football clinic and it was written up in on of the older College football Strategy books they publish annually, and he said the key in his Dungy defense was the strong safety (I wish I bought the copy in the bookstore, but it was a great rendition of the Tampa Two) and so, it goes like this. Just as the Seifert 3-4 rotated around the elephant position and where Charles or Fred would rush or drop into coverage, in the Dungy/Kiffen defense, the guy who keyed the defense was the strong safety. Lynch was that guy, depending on where he dropped into coverage or where his stepped up and blitzed, the whole defense would key that and play to what Lynch did. Lynch was the 8th man in that 8 man front and if he dropped into coverage, that turned it into a 7 man front, and the whole gap assignments changed with that simple repositioning. The only guy thinking in his defense was John Lynch, and everybody else just reacted to what he did. It was a very simple defense with just gap assignments for each player and/or zone assignments depending on the coverage called. Nobody thought, everybody just reacted - the only guy keying that defense was John Lynch. It worked and I can see Saleh implementing some of those principles into his version of the 4-3 under. This defense goes all the way back to Seifert and this defense (or versions of it) has won a lot of super bowls.
Lynch was a Cover2 safety in Dungy's scheme, not a box safety in alignment. Don't know what he did in DEN. Defenders can't be keying off a safety to know what to do.
About bend don't break, I'd consider anything with a 3 deep shell as bend don't break (Tampa2, Cover3, Cover6), since it leaves 4 underneath to invite the short throws, with 3 deep to prevent explosive plays.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:Saleh is going to have a good game today.
Originally posted by thl408:Vangio's D was a zone based scheme. He actually blitzed less than most if not all other DC's when he was in SF. Very rarely did he dial up blitzes and in most situations it was when the dline wasn't getting pressure, which again was rare.
Don't think I said all that. When a 3-4 OLB rushes the passer, I don't consider that a blitz if it's a standard 4 man rush with 7 in coverage. That would mean Fangio is blitzing on most of the plays and that's not right. If I had to make a guess, I'd say Fangio played more man coverage than zone the rare times he blitzed (rush 5+). He did throw in some fire zone blitzes though (zone blitz).
Lynch was a Cover2 safety in Dungy's scheme, not a box safety in alignment. Don't know what he did in DEN. Defenders can't be keying off a safety to know what to do.
About bend don't break, I'd consider anything with a 3 deep shell as bend don't break (Tampa2, Cover3, Cover6), since it leaves 4 underneath to invite the short throws, with 3 deep to prevent explosive plays.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Saleh is going to have a good game today.
Remember, this is now a bend but don't break philosophy again. It's going to be annoying aa hell but as long as they eat up the clock and force only FG's, it's a win for us.
Originally posted by memelas:
Originally posted by thl408:Vangio's D was a zone based scheme. He actually blitzed less than most if not all other DC's when he was in SF. Very rarely did he dial up blitzes and in most situations it was when the dline wasn't getting pressure, which again was rare.
Don't think I said all that. When a 3-4 OLB rushes the passer, I don't consider that a blitz if it's a standard 4 man rush with 7 in coverage. That would mean Fangio is blitzing on most of the plays and that's not right. If I had to make a guess, I'd say Fangio played more man coverage than zone the rare times he blitzed (rush 5+). He did throw in some fire zone blitzes though (zone blitz).
Lynch was a Cover2 safety in Dungy's scheme, not a box safety in alignment. Don't know what he did in DEN. Defenders can't be keying off a safety to know what to do.
About bend don't break, I'd consider anything with a 3 deep shell as bend don't break (Tampa2, Cover3, Cover6), since it leaves 4 underneath to invite the short throws, with 3 deep to prevent explosive plays.
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:Originally posted by NCommand:Originally posted by pasodoc9er:Saleh is going to have a good game today.
Remember, this is now a bend but don't break philosophy again. It's going to be annoying aa hell but as long as they eat up the clock and force only FG's, it's a win for us.
No its not. The players have consistently said all ofseason that is more of an attacking defense. We are basically rushing 4 every down now. Its a simple defense, less thinking involved.