Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Tha Pats had a HOF qb when they took Mallet.
The 49ers had a desperate need for a FQB and then passed on Mahomes and chose CJ.
You have an unhealthy obsession with the Mahomes thing.
More than 10 teams passed over Mahomes. If he was such a home run, he would never have fallen.
Does not matter that they had a HOF QB. Walsh picked GC who was another miss, Reid picked Kevin Kolb and passed over Russell Wilson. Welcome to the NFL where the draft especially with QB's is tough to find consistent success.
Not many of those 10 teams needed a QB as desperately as us. Going in with Hoyer was a terrible idea. And to top it off, we made one of the worst picks in the top 10 that year with Thomas.
If we picked Mahomes, we would have been so much better off right now.
[ Edited by Young2Rice on Jul 16, 2019 at 3:50 PM ]
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Not many of those 10 teams needed a QB as desperately as us. Going in with Hoyer was a terrible idea. And to top it off, we made one of the worst picks in the top 10 that year with Thomas.
If we picked Mahomes, we would have been so much better off right now.
So would the Bears and they wouldn't have to give us a bunch of picks to get him.
I know he's a bit of a blowhard, but Cowherd had some complimentary things to say about Shanahan that I think people might be interested in. He starts about halfway through the vid.
I like Cowherd a lot. I'm assuming he is talking about this article:
When you actually read what he has to say, it is hard to disagree with.
This might not be a fair ranking for a guy who kept the 49ers competitive in the second half of the season while having to play musical chairs at quarterback. The problem here is that Shanahan hasn't really accomplished anything yet as a head coach, which makes the criteria for evaluating his performance somewhat narrow. Shanahan did a fantastic job as offensive coordinator with the Falcons. He played a big role in Atlanta making it to the Super Bowl, and Matt Ryan winning MVP, in 2016. In two years in San Francisco, he's gone 10-22. That record isn't masked by the obvious upside of the roster, or the potential many see in Shanahan. From the outside looking in, it sure seems he is the right man to develop Jimmy Garoppolo, who is coming back from the ACL tear that cost him all but three games last season. Shanahan seems to be a good communicator, and is both confident and comfortable with himself. Whether that will translate into contention in the NFC West remains to be seen.
So basically, it just sums up what most people here say in the webzone on a daily basis.. Everyone knows hes a brilliant coordinator, but it hasn't translated to wins. That's why hes ranked low. You don't rank head coaches based on future projection. Soooooo, I don't really get Colin's point. There's been plenty of smart coordinators in the past like Norv Turner who never could cut it as a head coach. Just because your brilliant, it doesn't mean anything if you don't win on sundays.
Also, I like how he deflects that it isn't Shanahan's fault if the defense doesn't play well, because "he didn't draft those guys". I mean, hes a national media guy so its understandable, but he clearly isn't paying close attention to this team. We know John Lynch is essentially almost a figure head here to look good for PR and communicate to the fanbase. Kyle is the guy who is calling most of the shots on personnel if he really loves a guy in the draft, and can probably overrule Lynch if there's a disagreement. Maybe Kyle isn't as involved for draft selections when it comes to the defense, but I don't think he has zero input like what Colin implies.
A coach isn't measured by picking and choosing small samples of games. Lynch was the one who convinced Kyle to look at JG. Kyle would have stood solid behind CJ until he had an opportunity to get Cousins.
Why do we keep measuring Kyle based on offense function alone? From what we have heard, if Kyle was making decisions, our QBs would be Cousins and CJ. Kyle is lucky Lynch has the New England connection and Kyle is lucky that CJ got hurt last season. And the defensive decisions have been a mess. Let's see if we can turn that around with signing and drafting some top talent.
Lynch got a call about trading for JG and he went to discuss it with Kyle.
Kyle already had scouted JG when he was in Cleveland and wanted the Browns to draft him and not Manziel.
Also Kyle has his own New England connection, he has Bill's respect. They got together after the Falcons/Pats SB.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Not many of those 10 teams needed a QB as desperately as us. Going in with Hoyer was a terrible idea. And to top it off, we made one of the worst picks in the top 10 that year with Thomas.
If we picked Mahomes, we would have been so much better off right now.
So would the Bears and they wouldn't have to give us a bunch of picks to get him.
Hindsight is 20/20
Agree.
It is perfectly clear that 2017 was a very poor draft. Looking back, it is clear there were so many good players in the top 15.
We gave up a good second rounder for jimmy. Bears had to give us a third and fourth, and swap firsts. Not a huge difference.
[ Edited by Young2Rice on Jul 16, 2019 at 3:59 PM ]
Tha Pats had a HOF qb when they took Mallet.
The 49ers had a desperate need for a FQB and then passed on Mahomes and chose CJ.
You have an unhealthy obsession with the Mahomes thing.
More than 10 teams passed over Mahomes. If he was such a home run, he would never have fallen.
Does not matter that they had a HOF QB. Walsh picked GC who was another miss, Reid picked Kevin Kolb and passed over Russell Wilson. Welcome to the NFL where the draft especially with QB's is tough to find consistent success.
Not many of those 10 teams needed a QB as desperately as us. Going in with Hoyer was a terrible idea. And to top it off, we made one of the worst picks in the top 10 that year with Thomas.
If we picked Mahomes, we would have been so much better off right now.
There were also teams behind Buffalo (who originally held the pick) that needed a QB or a long term successor and would have made the move had they known. But you don't pick in hindsight.
I know he's a bit of a blowhard, but Cowherd had some complimentary things to say about Shanahan that I think people might be interested in. He starts about halfway through the vid.
wish he would have talked about how Shanny somehow kept the 49ers offense moving and competent with Cj Beathard and Nick Mullens. That right there is a miracle.
So Kyle is a great coordinator. We already knew that. That is what Cowherd says as well which is his reasoning that Kyle will have success. I think Kyle will have success as well...BUT, BUT, BUT, so far, he has been a great OC but a below average HC.
Did you actually watch the entire segment? His point was as a comparison to Belichik at this stage of their respective careers, and how BB did not win consistently until he got his franchise QB. He cites health (particularly to your #1 QB), and strength of schedule his fist two years. I had never thought about the angle of how hard the Niners schedule has been since Shanny took over. Peoples preconceived notions always skew how they interpret things I guess. This is just one dude opinion at the end of the day.
It is perfectly clear that 2017 was a very poor draft. Looking back, it is clear there were so many good players in the top 15.
When you get an All Pro in the 5th round by definition it can't be a poor draft. Most drafts net zero All Pro caliber talents.
It can when your second overall pick is poor and your next first rounder was Foster. Then you have total busts like Beathard and Joe Williams. You can't call it anything but poor when you net only one all pro tight end and a bunch of total scrubs and question marks. That is why we can't win games. Imagine if we had Mahomes and Budda Baker instead of Thomas and Foster. We would be talking playoffs instead of hoping for 8-8.
[ Edited by Young2Rice on Jul 16, 2019 at 4:04 PM ]
It is perfectly clear that 2017 was a very poor draft. Looking back, it is clear there were so many good players in the top 15.
When you get an All Pro in the 5th round by definition it can't be a poor draft. Most drafts net zero All Pro caliber talents.
It can when your second overall pick is poor and your next first rounder was Foster. Then you have total busts like Beathard and Joe Williams. You can't call it anything but poor when you net only one all pro tight end and a bunch of scrubs or question marks. That is why we can't win games. Imagine if we had Mahomes and Budda Baker instead of Thomas and Foster.
I think all-pro is putting it lightly. Kittle might be a Hall of Famer already. But yes, I agree with you. 2017 was a huge disappointment. I'm not really bullish on any of the players there anymore. Remain hopeful for Solly, but not expecting much.
It is perfectly clear that 2017 was a very poor draft. Looking back, it is clear there were so many good players in the top 15.
When you get an All Pro in the 5th round by definition it can't be a poor draft. Most drafts net zero All Pro caliber talents.
It can when your second overall pick is poor and your next first rounder was Foster. Then you have total busts like Beathard and Joe Williams. You can't call it anything but poor when you net only one all pro tight end and a bunch of scrubs or question marks. That is why we can't win games. Imagine if we had Mahomes and Budda Baker instead of Thomas and Foster.
I think all-pro is putting it lightly. Kittle might be a Hall of Famer already. But yes, I agree with you. 2017 was a huge disappointment. I'm not really bullish on any of the players there anymore. Remain hopeful for Solly, but not expecting much.
I'll give them Kittle. That was a great pick. But according to what I'm reading, "hindsight is 20/20" and therefore the Kittle pick was just good luck like the other picks were bad luck.
[ Edited by Young2Rice on Jul 16, 2019 at 4:07 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did the Ravens make it to the Wild Card despite a piss poor season by Flacco and then playing a raw rookie QB?
That's besides the fact. Don't change the discussion. This isn't about making the playoffs. It is about incorrect decisions Kyle has made and a poor record to show for it.
If he had drafted a better RB than Joe Williams or didn't put all his eggs in the McKinnon basket, we would have possibly overcome the RB injury. If he acquired QBs other than Hoyer and CJ, or tried out Keep since we didn't have s**t at QB, we could have performed better.
What is Matt Brieda?
Originally posted by Joecool:
They had Kaep and decided they didn't need him. With the zone stretch, I am sure Kaep could perform better in this offense than CJ, Hoyer, or Lamar Jackson.
As for Coleman, I think it is a great move but we can't predict the future. All we can analyze is what has happened and the critical misses Kyle has.
It is 100% okay to evaluate Kyle's decisions and outcomes in the past couple of years. Let's not be blind in that.
And while criticizing those moves, it is okay to still believe in Kyle. That's my mentality. He has been far from perfect, but he still has more good things to offer.
If we can't predict the future then how can you assume McKinnon would not be a good back in this scheme, or how could you be sure Kaep would be better than CJ, Hoyer or LJ?
C'mon man.
What am I predicting? I'm talking about the last 2 years and the personnel decisions did not go in the right direction. Keap > Hoyer and CJ. Kyle picked Hoyer and CJ over Keap. Didn't turn out well because we had to acquire Jimmy G. The decision to let Keap go was not the correct decision.
Matt Brieda would have still been on the team if we didn't draft Joe Williams. We could have drafted a better player if Kyle had trusted the scouting staff. Fact is, Joe Williams was a major bust.
Hoyer and CJ were never meant to be the long term starters at QB though. They were always just a placeholder until someone like Kirk Cousins became available. Hoyer made more sense than Kaep, because he was already familiar with the offense. Kaep would have been better than Hoyer, but he always would have just been a bridge QB until KS got the ideal QB for his system. Now, whether Kirk Cousins would have been a good QB for us is debatable, but is irrelevant because JG became available.
Kirk Cousins is old and mediocre. That would have been a disaster.
Yeah and our boy Kyle wanted him bad until Lynch had to talk him into taking a good look at Jimmy G and the trade value. If it was up to Kyle, we would have been diving head first into Cousins for some years.
All I am saying as that based on the last two years, Kyle Shanahan, the head coach, has been below average.
However, Kyle Shanahan, the offensive coordinator, has been exactly as advertised.
I just don't see how 49ers fans refuse to separate the two when they read or hear of a realistic take on the last two years.
Kyle has a winning record with Jimmy. He also has a winning record with Jimmy and the presumed backup Mullens combined, 9-7 while rebuilding. He has a 1-15 record with two guys who nobody wants to see throw a ball in a regular season game as a niner anytime soon, IRMA GERD. That's the reality, keep judging him for his record under those two guys if it makes you feel better I suppose. I'll go ahead and look forward to seeing more of what hes done with our first and second string guys at QB.
A coach isn't measured by picking and choosing small samples of games. Lynch was the one who convinced Kyle to look at JG. Kyle would have stood solid behind CJ until he had an opportunity to get Cousins.
Why do we keep measuring Kyle based on offense function alone? From what we have heard, if Kyle was making decisions, our QBs would be Cousins and CJ. Kyle is lucky Lynch has the New England connection and Kyle is lucky that CJ got hurt last season. And the defensive decisions have been a mess. Let's see if we can turn that around with signing and drafting some top talent.
So using the record of you head coaches first and second string QB is picking and choosing your posts are filled with hilarious opinions, I'll give you that much.
Incorrect. I'm basing most of Kyle's head coaching evaluation off of who he personally hand picked over other possibilities and players playing out of position when it was staring everyone in the face. He should have overrided his DC. Also, forcing players to play injured is not good in the long run.
There's more to just wins and sample games to being a good head coach of an entire franchise. But some only want to evaluate Kyle the OC. You can choose to keep taking the Blue Pill, but the Red Pill shows more.
I know he's a bit of a blowhard, but Cowherd had some complimentary things to say about Shanahan that I think people might be interested in. He starts about halfway through the vid.
wish he would have talked about how Shanny somehow kept the 49ers offense moving and competent with Cj Beathard and Nick Mullens. That right there is a miracle.
So Kyle is a great coordinator. We already knew that. That is what Cowherd says as well which is his reasoning that Kyle will have success. I think Kyle will have success as well...BUT, BUT, BUT, so far, he has been a great OC but a below average HC.
Did you actually watch the entire segment? His point was as a comparison to Belichik at this stage of their respective careers, and how BB did not win consistently until he got his franchise QB. He cites health (particularly to your #1 QB), and strength of schedule his fist two years. I had never thought about the angle of how hard the Niners schedule has been since Shanny took over. Peoples preconceived notions always skew how they interpret things I guess. This is just one dude opinion at the end of the day.
Yes, I did listen to all of it but his basis was that they were both great coordinators.
And unlike most of you want to believe, Cowherd did say BB was not a winning head coach. He stressed more about BB's coordinating abilities which eventually made him a great HC. That's his theory on Kyle as well. However, Cowherd never said Kyle is a great head coach, he said he has everything needed to become one, if JG pans out.
My point is that, so far, Kyle has not made good head coaching decisions, but has been a great OC. His OC ability is what will keep him alive and possibly succeed and eventually learn to be a good head coach.
I refuse to believe Kyle has been a top head coach the past couple of years. He may eventually be one but it is very realistic for someone to give him a "meh" head coach evaluation from 2017 to 2019.
