John Lynch - 49ers GM

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by genus49:
Yup. We gotta build off last year's good looking draft and whatever thought process we used to build that board and make those picks should be applied to this class with a strong emphasis on improving the trenches.

Gotta give the Rams credit, 2023 draft in particular. I was kind of laughing at them at the time cuz they had SO many draft picks 14 picks is unheard of and that was without a 1st rounder but boy did they land some studs.

We need the influx of young, hungry talent but have to still hit the picks. Eliminate the red flags/injury risks early on in the draft. Take those changes later on if you're going to take those chances.

People focus on Purdy's contract but the teams that are good consistently just draft well. You can't contend without it. Its not a big QB contract that cripples teams, its bad drafting and having to overspend in FA to compensate that gets them.

Yup. I don't care if you're Purdy or Mahomes/Allen/Lamar, if your team can't draft well or even solid you're not going to be in SB contention long.

The blueprint is there and Eagles are a perfect example of how stupid the "you can't compete for a SB if you pay Brock a big contract"

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Since07:
You right we have to trust the process and put the pass rush all on Bosa's shoulders like we have since 2019 I mean that's why we gave him that mega contact right?

Why can't they do what the Rams did? The Rams rebuilt their entire defense via the draft in two years. Without any high draft picks. Now they have a ton of financial flexibility that will allow them to pursue higher salary players if they want to.

At some point you have to trust your scouting and just draft well or everyone will get fired anyways.

I mean they could have taken Fiske over Ricky. They could have taken Kobie Turner over Ji'Ayir Brown. s**t they could have traded those 3rd comps to go get Byron Young instead of drafting a kicker and a LBer that never played a down for you.

I'm sorry at what point do you stop trusting your scouting department? They've had 66 draft picks since 2017. Toss out Bosa because my 3 yr old could have gotten that right at 2 overall. The BEST DL they've draft is DJ Jones in the 5th rd!

let's call a spade a spade. They suck at scouting that position. They're consistently having to trade or sign a DL because they simply stink at finding talent there via the draft. Why do we magically expect them to get it right now?

I keep hearing Garrett will destroy our salary cap.

People do realize whatever team trades for him isn't paying him that much in 2025 and 2026, right? Yes that's all he's signed for but it's not like he has an albatross or a contract attached to him. It's nothing like the Watson contract.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I mean they could have taken Fiske over Ricky. They could have taken Kobie Turner over Ji'Ayir Brown. s**t they could have traded those 3rd comps to go get Byron Young instead of drafting a kicker and a LBer that never played a down for you.

I'm sorry at what point do you stop trusting your scouting department? They've had 66 draft picks since 2017. Toss out Bosa because my 3 yr old could have gotten that right at 2 overall. The BEST DL they've draft is DJ Jones in the 5th rd!

let's call a spade a spade. They suck at scouting that position. They're consistently having to trade or sign a DL because they simply stink at finding talent there via the draft. Why do we magically expect them to get it right now?

Then you need to start firing some people.

You look at Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Kansas City, Green Bay, the Rams and Detroit now, these are teams that consistently find value in the draft.

Originally posted by paulk205:
You and I don't know what every single GM thinks. We can read what a bunch of draftniks think what GMs think. And I specifically said that I'm not advocating a Ricky Williams/Herschel Walker type trade, so all the "50 1sts" talk does not apply. We definitely need to draft a bunch of guys this year, and we need to have picks down the years to replenish the ranks as our players get older, become FAs or retire. But you can pick all through the draft. The relative position of picking is of limited, well, value (it's not worthless, but it's not as important as the BS chart would have us believe). We have a plethora of picks. We draft a bunch of guys and hope they're good. We've done it before: Fred was a 3rd rounder, Kittle a 5th, Purdy obviously was Mr Irrelevant, JJ was a 7th (I think), Deebo was 2nd (again, I think). Sure, we've struck out too - that's the point. It's the draft, it's a lottery. That's why you need to flood it with picks, hoping that some of them stick. That's why the Ricky Williams trade was idiotic - New Orleans traded their whole draft for him!

If the 49ers think they can use Garrett and fit him in the cap, the equation is very simple. Let's pick one of those "rich" trades that people think is "overpaying". 2 1sts plus some mid rounder(s). So: on one hand you have a veteran, proven top-3 defender in his prime. On the other hand you have #11, next year's first (which you hope will be in the high 20s or even 30s, if you get your s**t together as a team) and let's also say one of our picks in the 80s and 90s this year (I don't have them handy now, but you know which ones I'm talking about). That's 3 possibles (one of them next year) against one probable (or better). For a team than needs to win now (since our established talent is getting old) which one is more likely to contribute NOW? The possibles or the probable?

Let me say it in another way. If the draft included veterans as well as rookies, would you consider Garrett drafted at #11 a "reach"? Or to use the "rich" trade example from above: if Garrett went top-3 in this hypothetical draft (I assume some QBs would go higher than him, say Lamar and Mahomes), would you pull a Lance-type trade to move up from #11 to get him? Or do you look at the chart?

Of course at some point the equation will not work in the veteran's favour. Trading, say, 5 1st rounders means that you hope that the veteran will be better than 5 lottery draws in a row. That's becoming unlikely, especially since the guy will get older and will get injuries on the way. But within reason, you will have to "overpay": this will be a bidding war. It's not just the difficult position of the Browns that is the issue here, it is that there are other contenders who are competing against you. We are "fortunate" to have sucked this year compared to Baltimore, Philly or Buffalo, so we have an earlier pick than them plus we have accumulated a bunch and can afford to draft for quantity. We have the ammo, let's use it.

>>Of course at some point the equation will not work in the veteran's favour

Okay, so now you are saying there is value to be considered. But value must be considered always, not just if a team is rebuilding or one piece away. Every GM, whether you want to acknowledge that point or not, will use a value consideration on these big trades, and to suggest otherwise is not correct.

To clarify, I'm not against getting Garrett.....but believe me, both sides will be considering the value of the trade.

Originally posted by Fanaticofnfl:
I keep hearing Garrett will destroy our salary cap.

People do realize whatever team trades for him isn't paying him that much in 2025 and 2026, right? Yes that's all he's signed for but it's not like he has an albatross or a contract attached to him. It's nothing like the Watson contract.

You do realize that he's not going to be playing on that contract in the same way that Trent didn't want to play on what remained of his deal? If you trade for him, a reset, top of the league DE pay new deal comes part and parcel.

Originally posted by Fanaticofnfl:
I keep hearing Garrett will destroy our salary cap.

People do realize whatever team trades for him isn't paying him that much in 2025 and 2026, right? Yes that's all he's signed for but it's not like he has an albatross or a contract attached to him. It's nothing like the Watson contract.

It's not gonna destroy the 49ers salary cap it's gonna destroy Cleveland's.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Since07:
You right we have to trust the process and put the pass rush all on Bosa's shoulders like we have since 2019 I mean that's why we gave him that mega contact right?

Why can't they do what the Rams did? The Rams rebuilt their entire defense via the draft in two years. Without any high draft picks. Now they have a ton of financial flexibility that will allow them to pursue higher salary players if they want to.

At some point you have to trust your scouting and just draft well or everyone will get fired anyways.

I mean they could have taken Fiske over Ricky. They could have taken Kobie Turner over Ji'Ayir Brown. s**t they could have traded those 3rd comps to go get Byron Young instead of drafting a kicker and a LBer that never played a down for you.

I'm sorry at what point do you stop trusting your scouting department? They've had 66 draft picks since 2017. Toss out Bosa because my 3 yr old could have gotten that right at 2 overall. The BEST DL they've draft is DJ Jones in the 5th rd!

let's call a spade a spade. They suck at scouting that position. They're consistently having to trade or sign a DL because they simply stink at finding talent there via the draft. Why do we magically expect them to get it right now?

But to be fair, the 49ers never really had to draft DL. Since Shanahan and Lynch came to SF, they always had Buckner and Armstead or Armstead and DJ Jones or Armstead and Kevin Givens/Charles Omenihu. Then they signed Javon Hargrave who we all thought was the best signing of all time when they picked him up. The only real miss was Javon Kinlaw, other than that the 49ers had needs in other areas.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I mean they could have taken Fiske over Ricky. They could have taken Kobie Turner over Ji'Ayir Brown. s**t they could have traded those 3rd comps to go get Byron Young instead of drafting a kicker and a LBer that never played a down for you.

I'm sorry at what point do you stop trusting your scouting department? They've had 66 draft picks since 2017. Toss out Bosa because my 3 yr old could have gotten that right at 2 overall. The BEST DL they've draft is DJ Jones in the 5th rd!

let's call a spade a spade. They suck at scouting that position. They're consistently having to trade or sign a DL because they simply stink at finding talent there via the draft. Why do we magically expect them to get it right now?

Then you need to start firing some people.

You look at Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Kansas City, Green Bay, the Rams and Detroit now, these are teams that consistently find value in the draft.

Yes I agree start firing people that are scouting this crap.

I can't think of a single team the past 4 yrs that has had more mid rd picks than SF. We've been given comp pick after comp pick for losing HC/FO people and FAs, we're consistently turning those picks into kickers, horrible TE, RBs, bad CB/WRs etc.

honestly I don't trust this FO to draft the right DL either. They haven't shown that they can do it.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Since07:
You right we have to trust the process and put the pass rush all on Bosa's shoulders like we have since 2019 I mean that's why we gave him that mega contact right?

Why can't they do what the Rams did? The Rams rebuilt their entire defense via the draft in two years. Without any high draft picks. Now they have a ton of financial flexibility that will allow them to pursue higher salary players if they want to.

At some point you have to trust your scouting and just draft well or everyone will get fired anyways.

I mean they could have taken Fiske over Ricky. They could have taken Kobie Turner over Ji'Ayir Brown. s**t they could have traded those 3rd comps to go get Byron Young instead of drafting a kicker and a LBer that never played a down for you.

I'm sorry at what point do you stop trusting your scouting department? They've had 66 draft picks since 2017. Toss out Bosa because my 3 yr old could have gotten that right at 2 overall. The BEST DL they've draft is DJ Jones in the 5th rd!

let's call a spade a spade. They suck at scouting that position. They're consistently having to trade or sign a DL because they simply stink at finding talent there via the draft. Why do we magically expect them to get it right now?

We don't know if the Rams would've taken Fiske over RIcky so it is what it is.

DCs and position coaches have input on those picks so we'll see if Saleh's input after seeing Quinnen Williams up close helps get us better results.

Solomon Thomas isn't a horrible player but clearly fooled a lot of people, you and me included.

If they simply avoid drafting tweeners or injury risks early I think the odds of hitting on that position goes up tenfold.

We've only drafted 6 DTs in the 8 years with Kyle/John here.

Thomas - a tweener who had a major family tragedy happen that could've really f'd up his career with us
DJ Jones - as you said probably the best DT we've drafted as a 5th rounder

Kentavius Street - 4th round pick coming off an ACL(injury risk) he's a rotational guy still playing in the league
Julian Taylor - 7th round pick that was basically potential heavy developmental guy, IIRC injuries ended his career early

Kinlaw - we know his issues, talent wasn't one of them

Kalia Davis - 6th round DT coming off ACL

So I think it's fair to say if we avoid tweeners or injury risks early, success rate should definitely climb.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
But to be fair, the 49ers never really had to draft DL. Since Shanahan and Lynch came to SF, they always had Buckner and Armstead or Armstead and DJ Jones or Armstead and Kevin Givens/Charles Omenihu. Then they signed Javon Hargrave who we all thought was the best signing of all time when they picked him up. The only real miss was Javon Kinlaw, other than that the 49ers had needs in other areas.

they talk about DL being one of the most important position on their roster. It's the one position group that you can rotate a bunch of dudes throughout a game and they haven't done crap there via the draft.

they didn't draft Buck/AA. I don't give them any credit for them being here (they did trade Buck though). They traded for guys like Collins/Omenihu/young/ford etc. they signed Key and Hardgrave. Those aren't homegrown Kyle/john guys that they scouted and drafted.

They've missed on every pick they've made at DL besides Jones (who they didn't resign) and Bosa which imo is about as easy as it gets.

they should have stocked the DL with those damn picks that they threw away for kicker/punter/TE/WR/CB on day 2/3etc etc. it's just as bad when you miss out on taking a player as it is when you draft a bad one in their place.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
But to be fair, the 49ers never really had to draft DL. Since Shanahan and Lynch came to SF, they always had Buckner and Armstead or Armstead and DJ Jones or Armstead and Kevin Givens/Charles Omenihu. Then they signed Javon Hargrave who we all thought was the best signing of all time when they picked him up. The only real miss was Javon Kinlaw, other than that the 49ers had needs in other areas.

they talk about DL being one of the most important position on their roster. It's the one position group that you can rotate a bunch of dudes throughout a game and they've don't crap there via the draft.

rhey didn't draft Buck/AA. I don't give them any credit for them being here. They traded for guys like Collins/Omenihu/young/ford etc. they signed key and Hardgrave. Those aren't homegrown Kyle/john guys that they scouted and drafted.

They've missed on every pick they've made at DL besides Jones (who they didn't resign) and Bosa which imo is about as easy as it gets.

they should have stocked the DL with ALL those damn picks that they threw away for kicker/punter/LB/WR/CB etc etc. it's just as bad when you miss out on taking a player as it is when you draft a bad one in their place.

My point is let's stop tossing out the Rams as some easy scenario to fix the DL. SF hasn't proven that they can do that in the draft. IMO we've wasted a lot of day2/3 picks on really dumb positions and reached all over the place for whatever reason. Let's be better and expect more as fans.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Yes I agree start firing people that are scouting this crap.

I can't think of a single team the past 4 yrs that has had more mid rd picks than SF. We've been given comp pick after comp pick for losing HC/FO people and FAs, we're consistently turning those picks into kickers, horrible TE, RBs, bad CB/WRs etc.

honestly I don't trust this FO to draft the right DL either. They haven't shown that they can do it.

This is where I'm hoping Kyle gives away some of his control.

We know the deal. Kyle calls the shots early in the draft and then allows his position coaches and scouts to have more sway in the later picks.

Really it feels like we've been lazy and trying to be smarter than other people with those picks.

Drafting Moody and saying "we got ourselves an instant starter in the 3rd round" is lazy imo. Look around the league and you'll see a ton of excellent kickers who are UDFA or street FA pickups. They looked at their roster felt it was so good they didn't need help at other positions and took Moody. Now we're looking at a broken kicker who may not make the team in year 3 after being drafted in the 3rd round.

Drake Jackson is another tweener injury guy. The potential and ability was on display but looks like another miss.

Cam Latu to me was honestly a worse pick. I liked the Brown pick and hope he turns it around. Latu had no business going as high as we drafted him. Same goes for TDP the year prior. I understand why they took him...but you have to play the board better than we have.

Like I said...I hope whatever clicked for us last draft is something we continue to commit to and hope it continues to work well for us.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
My point is let's stop tossing out the Rams as some easy scenario to fix the DL. SF hasn't proven that that can do that in the draft. IMO we've wasted a lot of day2/3 picks on really dumb positions and reached all over the place for whatever reason. Let's be better and expect more as fans.

I mean they had a pretty good draft last year. Could have been better definitely but hopefully that's more a sign of things to come.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
But to be fair, the 49ers never really had to draft DL. Since Shanahan and Lynch came to SF, they always had Buckner and Armstead or Armstead and DJ Jones or Armstead and Kevin Givens/Charles Omenihu. Then they signed Javon Hargrave who we all thought was the best signing of all time when they picked him up. The only real miss was Javon Kinlaw, other than that the 49ers had needs in other areas.

they talk about DL being one of the most important position on their roster. It's the one position group that you can rotate a bunch of dudes throughout a game and they've don't crap there via the draft.

rhey didn't draft Buck/AA. I don't give them any credit for them being here. They traded for guys like Collins/Omenihu/young/ford etc. they signed key and Hardgrave. Those aren't homegrown Kyle/john guys that they scouted and drafted.

They've missed on every pick they've made at DL besides Jones (who they didn't resign) and Bosa which imo is about as easy as it gets.

they should have stocked the DL with ALL those damn picks that they threw away for kicker/punter/LB/WR/CB etc etc. it's just as bad when you miss out on taking a player as it is when you draft a bad one in their place.

My point is let's stop tossing out the Rams as some easy scenario to fix the DL. SF hasn't proven that that can do that in the draft. IMO we've wasted a lot of day2/3 picks on really dumb positions and reached all over the place for whatever reason. Let's be better and expect more as fans.

I think it's a fair comparison given our issues.

Hell for an extreme comparison I wouldn't hate double dipping with Nolen and Umanmielen similar to what LA did with Verse and Fiske.

Rams did find Turner and Young the year prior but the Verse and Fiske picks were somewhat obvious given their needs and the board. I think you'd have a better point if people were saying "we need to find our own Nacua" cuz that's a tough sell.