49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by FL9er:

49ers: That offensive line is a problem. It was a problem all during their preseason, and I'm guessing it will continue to be. If they don't figure things out, that entire offense could dramatically slow down.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2851960-mike-freemans-10-point-stance-nfl-insiders-takes-on-every-team-before-kickoff

High level, but accurate IMHO. Sure the OL is great when all our starters are healthy, but we've not had a full season played on this them when Richburg was healthy. So I'm no longer in the business of projecting success or improvement. It's not going to matter to the opposing team that "when Richburg comes back, we'll be better" rather they're game planning to attack Garland and the spaces between.

The depth is where the biggest problem is. The backups are barely serviceable.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Yes, I do realize this but you all are making the argument or implying that our OL can't be any better than is because *everyone* has OL talent problems where allowing 125 hits isn't bad yet in 3 seasons every one of our QBs have had injury forcing them to miss time. I'd say that's an unusual for a playoff contender.

So here's where this gets confusing for me:

1) the OL can't be evaluated until Richburg and everyone gets healthy despite this group having health issues consistently.

2) OL talent is down league wide which explains some of it.

3) we haven't had a system for 15 years to make our guys better

4) people want elite pass protection from guards and it's not going to happen

5) what stud OL was available to pick in any draft for the past few years outside of McGlinchy?

6) looking for a backup during this part of the season is the best you can expect during this time of year.

For me all of these are responses and not answers why were carrying 8 OL, 7 WRs, 3 QBs and 4 TEs - while we scour the waiver wire and last chance FA for whatever we can find at swing tackle. I watch Kyles actions versus listening to explanations and his actions are loud and clear; OL just really isn't a priority outside of starters and maybe 1 or 2 back ups at most. If anything he's fine with our guys health and all. This compares to his personnel moves last off season when WR was a hot topic. Same thing. Many of us thought we needed more, and Kyle said "I like our guys" and Bourne ended up being the teams leading wideout.

We'll see if we needed more at OL. Only thing is how patient will fans be after it takes another possible losing season for this to be figured out?

I don't even know what you're getting at anymore...honestly I stopped reading after the 1st paragraph, no hate just done trying to debate whatever it is we're debating at this pt

All I've said is this OL isn't as awful as everyone is proclaiming. Throwing out QB hits as the factual evidence doesn't cut it for me. I've shown other teams that supposedly have top OLs/offenses also have a f**k ton of QB hits.

I've stated that there's context that needs to be implemented with those QB hits LIKE QB play, scheme, being put in horrible positions because of a f**king horrible turnover ratio, injuries, having a bunch of s**t at the skilled position etc...

I've also stated the shanahan's view tackle and center as much more important positions then guard. They've been to SBs, won SBs, and been part of some f**king good offenses... so sorry if I take a little more stock in how they view a team vs a couple people on WZ.

I want upgrades everywhere. Not just the OL but everywhere. I think they need better depth sure. I think that can be said for every single team in the NFL end of the day.

Done debating on this topic...we will see how everything goes because guess what that's all we can do

Originally posted by cciowa:

I hope it will not come down to seeing jimmy get knocked out in order for people to see this line is not very good. if jimmy gets knocked out I really do not think anyone will say. oh its ok, all nfl teams have o line issues as if that is supposed to make us feel better. but who knows, homers are going to homer. as you said aside from , hopefully, adding some mid tier or below mid tier tackle or guard or both for depth. the line is as good as it will ever be . in regards to the three quarterbacks and four tight ends. we sure could have used two extra spots on SOMEONE . to me the want for cj and a want for a 4th tight end was not as critical as the need for some offensive line guy or maybe a decent safety. but again with cj. we are dealing with kyles ego in my opinion and i hope jimmy will not pay the price for that. of course cj would not bring us any elite player, which speaks volumes to how he never should have drafted by us where he was. but the bottom line. he did not deserve to be on this roster

So if jimmy G gets knocked out because he didn't get rid of the ball that gonna count? If our skilled players can't get open is that on the OL?

This OL isn't awful. It's not. It can always be improved much like anything

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
There has been a lot of noise about trading out Arik, and getting rid of CJ. Several others too, but let's just stay with these 2 and DJs point: does anyone REALLY want to have traded Arik for a late day 3 pick? Anyone? And CJ...the same? Heck, no, and in CJs case, odds are he will play this yr if our OL is not good enough. You all understand what that implies.

As for Arik...3rd day pick...he is a guy who will play a lot this yr, and swap him out for a ST on day 3? But "Arik and CJ are worth way more that that," some say. Well, maybe so, but :

If you want to trade...it takes two to dance. And therein was the problem...nobody valued either guy as a day 1 or day 2 pick. And with no dance partner, you sit the dance out.

Really it is that simple. Nobody wanted either guy at anything more than a day 3 pick...or there would mostl likely been some dealing done. Add to that, if JimmyG goes down, with no CJ, we are strung out high and dry with no backup. We might be able to get a Hoyer quality backup , but that isn't going to help. Nope, keeping Arik and CJ was by far the better choice, given that nobody else wanted to dance.

Don't forget the comp pick the Niners might get depending on where Armstead goes in free agency.

If they let him walk that just means a guy like Givens will have a better chance to make the 53 next year rather than the PS.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
So if jimmy G gets knocked out because he didn't get rid of the ball that gonna count? If our skilled players can't get open is that on the OL?

This OL isn't awful. It's not. It can always be improved much like anything

i meet you halfway.. agree with your first part. of course you are right. there are lots of reasons why a qb gets knocked out. i think some of it last year did have to do with the wide outs either unable or unwilling to get open. thus kyle dumped garcon and brought in some fresh bodies which two of them made the roster. the second part. we will just agree to disagree. i do think the o line in regards to pass protection is pretty bad and the depth is pretty much non existent. but if they turn out good. of course i will eat crow

Originally posted by cciowa:

i meet you halfway.. agree with your first part. of course you are right. there are lots of reasons why a qb gets knocked out. i think some of it last year did have to do with the wide outs either unable or unwilling to get open. thus kyle dumped garcon and brought in some fresh bodies which two of them made the roster. the second part. we will just agree to disagree. i do think the o line in regards to pass protection is pretty bad and the depth is pretty much non existent. but if they turn out good. of course i will eat crow

They can improve no doubt (can say that for anything)our guards are average. Richburg is a damn good center and we have one of the better tackle tandems in the NFL.

Originally posted by cciowa:

i meet you halfway.. agree with your first part. of course you are right. there are lots of reasons why a qb gets knocked out. i think some of it last year did have to do with the wide outs either unable or unwilling to get open. thus kyle dumped garcon and brought in some fresh bodies which two of them made the roster. the second part. we will just agree to disagree. i do think the o line in regards to pass protection is pretty bad and the depth is pretty much non existent. but if they turn out good. of course i will eat crow

Lolwtfbbq

So receivers were just like "meh don't feel like getting open cuz I might have to catch and run"?

I don't really see any standout guards that are free agents after this year, maybe Brandon Scherff? Anyone know if there's any intriguing prospects coming in this years draft?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by cciowa:
i meet you halfway.. agree with your first part. of course you are right. there are lots of reasons why a qb gets knocked out. i think some of it last year did have to do with the wide outs either unable or unwilling to get open. thus kyle dumped garcon and brought in some fresh bodies which two of them made the roster. the second part. we will just agree to disagree. i do think the o line in regards to pass protection is pretty bad and the depth is pretty much non existent. but if they turn out good. of course i will eat crow

They can improve no doubt (can say that for anything)our guards are average. Richburg is a damn good center and we have one of the better tackle tandems in the NFL.

man,, i hope you are right about rich being a good center.. the pressure is on you for him to come true. i know that is s**tty but that is the way it is

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'm with you 100%. If I'm building a team, particularly a KS coached team, I think it's easier to get buy with average receivers + average backs + top tier OL as opposed to top tier receivers + top tier backs + average O-line (and ours is actually below average). With his ability to scheme guys open, KS isn't as dependent on having elite offensive skill position guys, as say, a Jim Harbaugh would . With that said, they built the team the way they did and we are left hoping that the O-line won't stall the potential of our offense.

I'm actually optimistic however because the speed/quickness of our guys + Jimmy's quick release can keep us ahead of the average to below average teams. It's where we run into a dominant defense/D-line that we will run into problems.

I've never seen Kyle build an O-line, so idk what his preferred method is, but it will all come to light in the 2020 draft because on paper, that is the top need for this team. We will see if they attack it with the same aggressiveness they did in fixing our issues at receiver and D-line (which WAS the biggest need in 2017/2018).

If Garcon didn't get that injury and is still playing today, we'd have an extra receiver and would probably not have picked DeeBo and used that for an OLineman this year. The medical team that misdiagnosed (I think) *both* McKinnon and Richburg have to shoulder some of the blame. We had one of the highest injury rates for a team in a long time. A lot of the injuries also occurred on the OLine these past couple of years. We shall see how this new medical team does, but I like how they are very conservative with the players - maybe the new design will work. So I think ShanaLynch have done their due diligence on the OLine, but clearly they could have done a bit more, but I think the medical staff has a bit of blame to share with ShanaLynch.

Overall, I think the OLine will be fine if we don't lose any more OLinemen to season ending injuries. The cruddy OLine in 2017 did fine the last 5 games with Jimmy at QB. I think the current OLine - with McGlinchy, a healthy Richburg - is loads better than that 2017 squad.

Given Garcon's age, it was coming sooner or later. But you're probably right- it sped up the process in picking a replacement.

Injuries can be good too. We found out about Nick Mullens because CJ and Jimmy were injured. I think the young OLinemen that are on the team right now, if they had to go into the fire and play - they could very well develop because of the fact that they got reps in real games. Just like Nick vs BeatHard - we found out that Nick is better in game than BeatHard.

I think the key to putting the odds in your favor - i.e. the newbie doing well vs failing flat (at least on the offensive line side) is scheme fit. If you give the rookie the best shot he can get because the scheme really does fits his talent, then the only thing that can fail is his desire or simply that he actually can't run your scheme for some other reason that scheme fit. I think that's how Mullens was able to do well, and GreenLaw, and the others. Scheme fit.

That's why I'm optimistic about the youngsters on the OLine and practice squad, they are perfect scheme fit athletes for Kyles system.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'm with you 100%. If I'm building a team, particularly a KS coached team, I think it's easier to get buy with average receivers + average backs + top tier OL as opposed to top tier receivers + top tier backs + average O-line (and ours is actually below average). With his ability to scheme guys open, KS isn't as dependent on having elite offensive skill position guys, as say, a Jim Harbaugh would . With that said, they built the team the way they did and we are left hoping that the O-line won't stall the potential of our offense.

I'm actually optimistic however because the speed/quickness of our guys + Jimmy's quick release can keep us ahead of the average to below average teams. It's where we run into a dominant defense/D-line that we will run into problems.

I've never seen Kyle build an O-line, so idk what his preferred method is, but it will all come to light in the 2020 draft because on paper, that is the top need for this team. We will see if they attack it with the same aggressiveness they did in fixing our issues at receiver and D-line (which WAS the biggest need in 2017/2018).

Only Kyle and his father have shown you the blueprint of how they built offenses for yrs. They didn't have top guards. This is what everyone is complaining about, correct? Not have good/great guards? They've spent up at tackle and center and find scheme fits at guard.

It's a double edged sword with having subpar skilled players and good OL. Good skilled players help the OL just as well. Go look at Dallas, great OL with subpar WRs and TE and Dak got blasted all yr. It all goes hand and hand.

Personally I think the secondary is a bigger issue then upgrading a guard.

I think one of the things that Kyle looks for in a OLineman is intelligence. Joe Staley is a very talented communicator and is pretty intelligent - same with Glinch. I think that's important in predicting what a defense does (and conversely also an offense) If a center can predict the playcall for the defenses front 7, say 80+ of the time, I think even if the OLIne isn't athletically gifted, but if they get in the right position to slow down the blitz (example: if it's a zone blitz) or double the right guy in a stunt, that goes a long way to stalemating or dominating a talented defense, even if it's superior in athletic talent. I remember Joe Montana saying in an interview that he could predict about 85% of the defensive calls, just by looking at their alignment and personnel. A talented center (like Richburg), if he can predict with 80% accuracy what the defensive front 7 is going to do 80+% of the time, this will be a very good offensive line this year.

Lets hope with everyone healthy we get it together when the real season starts in a few days. ITS MORPHING TIME FOR OUR OLINE

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by genus49:
That's not what Joe is saying though. This has been my point with bringing up the Pats and Tom Brady.

Our OL isn't the Dallas Cowboys in their prime but they're not garbage either.

A QB and scheme can take the guys you have and elevate their play. Good communication, reads by the QB help out a lot. It's not just about throwing fast though certainly if you get the ball out quick that helps your OL since they don't have to block for deep drops and beyond 3+ seconds often.

Read the entire article it compares all of that. The fastest throwers were factored in. Clean pocket has way more significance for win percentage and success than scheme or speed. The point is clear; the faster you try to throw, the defense will try to compensate and usually does. It's a stretch to imply and believe that every offense becomes unstoppable just by throwing faster. That doesn't even wash anecdotally. Teams would just want a great QB and a great WR with nothing more. Kyle doesn't even believe in that. He runs and runs more. The article has the data to back that.

Well a good run game is a QB's best friend. The article is just looking at pass offenses and not really integrating the passing game analysis with the running game. The two go together. How the go together is also important. Kyle's run offense compliments his bootleg passes, vs Harbaugh's run offense which never did compliment his passing attack because he had none to speak of. Harbaugh's offense was a run first offense, the pass was just used to push back the defense from squatting on the run game. The article looks at Brees and Mahomes, but New Orlean's run game was top 10, and KC's run game was middle of the road, but given that top KC passing offense vs some of the other top offenses with bad run games (Tampa Bay and Steelers had bottom feeding run offenses). I don't think the article really does a good analysis of pass offenses at all.

I love how kyle's outside ZBS system *forces* the defense to over commit to the playside run, or they will get burned by the speed of the run offense. If they do over commit, they Kyle burns them with a back side bootleg with options to the TE and WR. It's a tough offense to defend because every play (run or pass) looks like it's opposite. So where is the *clean* pocket on a bootleg pass? It's not quite a drop back pass. In other words, if an article doesn't really factor a teams run game into their analysis - how accurate is the article on it's basic premise?

I wonder what Adam Snyder is up to? He'd be a huge up grade over our current guards and centers..

Just bring back Alex Boone already.