49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
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I guess the line is looking pretty offensive to him

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'm with you 100%. If I'm building a team, particularly a KS coached team, I think it's easier to get buy with average receivers + average backs + top tier OL as opposed to top tier receivers + top tier backs + average O-line (and ours is actually below average). With his ability to scheme guys open, KS isn't as dependent on having elite offensive skill position guys, as say, a Jim Harbaugh would . With that said, they built the team the way they did and we are left hoping that the O-line won't stall the potential of our offense.

I'm actually optimistic however because the speed/quickness of our guys + Jimmy's quick release can keep us ahead of the average to below average teams. It's where we run into a dominant defense/D-line that we will run into problems.

I've never seen Kyle build an O-line, so idk what his preferred method is, but it will all come to light in the 2020 draft because on paper, that is the top need for this team. We will see if they attack it with the same aggressiveness they did in fixing our issues at receiver and D-line (which WAS the biggest need in 2017/2018).

If Garcon didn't get that injury and is still playing today, we'd have an extra receiver and would probably not have picked DeeBo and used that for an OLineman this year. The medical team that misdiagnosed (I think) *both* McKinnon and Richburg have to shoulder some of the blame. We had one of the highest injury rates for a team in a long time. A lot of the injuries also occurred on the OLine these past couple of years. We shall see how this new medical team does, but I like how they are very conservative with the players - maybe the new design will work. So I think ShanaLynch have done their due diligence on the OLine, but clearly they could have done a bit more, but I think the medical staff has a bit of blame to share with ShanaLynch.

Overall, I think the OLine will be fine if we don't lose any more OLinemen to season ending injuries. The cruddy OLine in 2017 did fine the last 5 games with Jimmy at QB. I think the current OLine - with McGlinchy, a healthy Richburg - is loads better than that 2017 squad.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'm with you 100%. If I'm building a team, particularly a KS coached team, I think it's easier to get buy with average receivers + average backs + top tier OL as opposed to top tier receivers + top tier backs + average O-line (and ours is actually below average). With his ability to scheme guys open, KS isn't as dependent on having elite offensive skill position guys, as say, a Jim Harbaugh would . With that said, they built the team the way they did and we are left hoping that the O-line won't stall the potential of our offense.

I'm actually optimistic however because the speed/quickness of our guys + Jimmy's quick release can keep us ahead of the average to below average teams. It's where we run into a dominant defense/D-line that we will run into problems.

I've never seen Kyle build an O-line, so idk what his preferred method is, but it will all come to light in the 2020 draft because on paper, that is the top need for this team. We will see if they attack it with the same aggressiveness they did in fixing our issues at receiver and D-line (which WAS the biggest need in 2017/2018).

If Garcon didn't get that injury and is still playing today, we'd have an extra receiver and would probably not have picked DeeBo and used that for an OLineman this year. The medical team that misdiagnosed (I think) *both* McKinnon and Richburg have to shoulder some of the blame. We had one of the highest injury rates for a team in a long time. A lot of the injuries also occurred on the OLine these past couple of years. We shall see how this new medical team does, but I like how they are very conservative with the players - maybe the new design will work. So I think ShanaLynch have done their due diligence on the OLine, but clearly they could have done a bit more, but I think the medical staff has a bit of blame to share with ShanaLynch.

Overall, I think the OLine will be fine if we don't lose any more OLinemen to season ending injuries. The cruddy OLine in 2017 did fine the last 5 games with Jimmy at QB. I think the current OLine - with McGlinchy, a healthy Richburg - is loads better than that 2017 squad.

Given Garcon's age, it was coming sooner or later. But you're probably right- it sped up the process in picking a replacement.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by mojave45:

Well if they aren't getting the skills and practice in College, its harder for them to transition to the Pro level isn't it?

But that doesn't mean there is any less talent. It just emphasizes the importance of having excellent developmental coaches at the NFL level and you need to understand that it's going to take longer to develop them...maybe 2 years or more. We're seeing numerous trades now and G's and C's closing the gap on T $ now. Teams are prioritizing it esp. pass protection (see Trenton Brown) because the NFL game (passing league) is starting to mirror the college game that way (spread offenses).

But talent? It seems just as strong as any other position.

You also have to keep in mind, if you are talking about 2 years or more to develop O-line guys and that's IF all of your guys develop. As we all know, that won't happen. OR a guy will develop, but you can't afford to extend him, so you have to hit the reset button with another guy. Or maybe you have guys in the process of development, but a starter got injured, so someone has to play before they are ready.

100%. This is why I was emphasizing this in year 1 of their rebuild. If they want to keep costs low and young production high, they needed to start emphasizing the OL in the draft immediately. 3 years later, we have nobody and that's disappointing. Kyle's emphasis has been on using stop gap journeymen veterans annually instead. That seems like just kicking the can down the street.

I'm with you 100%. If I'm building a team, particularly a KS coached team, I think it's easier to get buy with average receivers + average backs + top tier OL as opposed to top tier receivers + top tier backs + average O-line (and ours is actually below average). With his ability to scheme guys open, KS isn't as dependent on having elite offensive skill position guys, as say, a Jim Harbaugh would . With that said, they built the team the way they did and we are left hoping that the O-line won't stall the potential of our offense.

I'm actually optimistic however because the speed/quickness of our guys + Jimmy's quick release can keep us ahead of the average to below average teams. It's where we run into a dominant defense/D-line that we will run into problems.

I've never seen Kyle build an O-line, so idk what his preferred method is, but it will all come to light in the 2020 draft because on paper, that is the top need for this team. We will see if they attack it with the same aggressiveness they did in fixing our issues at receiver and D-line (which WAS the biggest need in 2017/2018).

Well said!

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'm with you 100%. If I'm building a team, particularly a KS coached team, I think it's easier to get buy with average receivers + average backs + top tier OL as opposed to top tier receivers + top tier backs + average O-line (and ours is actually below average). With his ability to scheme guys open, KS isn't as dependent on having elite offensive skill position guys, as say, a Jim Harbaugh would . With that said, they built the team the way they did and we are left hoping that the O-line won't stall the potential of our offense.

I'm actually optimistic however because the speed/quickness of our guys + Jimmy's quick release can keep us ahead of the average to below average teams. It's where we run into a dominant defense/D-line that we will run into problems.

I've never seen Kyle build an O-line, so idk what his preferred method is, but it will all come to light in the 2020 draft because on paper, that is the top need for this team. We will see if they attack it with the same aggressiveness they did in fixing our issues at receiver and D-line (which WAS the biggest need in 2017/2018).

Only Kyle and his father have shown you the blueprint of how they built offenses for yrs. They didn't have top guards. This is what everyone is complaining about, correct? Not have good/great guards? They've spent up at tackle and center and find scheme fits at guard.

It's a double edged sword with having subpar skilled players and good OL. Good skilled players help the OL just as well. Go look at Dallas, great OL with subpar WRs and TE and Dak got blasted all yr. It all goes hand and hand.

Personally I think the secondary is a bigger issue then upgrading a guard.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'm with you 100%. If I'm building a team, particularly a KS coached team, I think it's easier to get buy with average receivers + average backs + top tier OL as opposed to top tier receivers + top tier backs + average O-line (and ours is actually below average). With his ability to scheme guys open, KS isn't as dependent on having elite offensive skill position guys, as say, a Jim Harbaugh would . With that said, they built the team the way they did and we are left hoping that the O-line won't stall the potential of our offense.

I'm actually optimistic however because the speed/quickness of our guys + Jimmy's quick release can keep us ahead of the average to below average teams. It's where we run into a dominant defense/D-line that we will run into problems.

I've never seen Kyle build an O-line, so idk what his preferred method is, but it will all come to light in the 2020 draft because on paper, that is the top need for this team. We will see if they attack it with the same aggressiveness they did in fixing our issues at receiver and D-line (which WAS the biggest need in 2017/2018).

Only Kyle and his father have shown you the blueprint of how they built offenses for yrs. They didn't have top guards. This is what everyone is complaining about, correct? Not have good/great guards? They've spent up at tackle and center and find scheme fits at guard.

It's a double edged sword with having subpar skilled players and good OL. Good skilled players help the OL just as well. Go look at Dallas, great OL with subpar WRs and TE and Dak got blasted all yr. It all goes hand and hand.

Personally I think the secondary is a bigger issue then upgrading a guard.

I gotta agree, I think Persons will be solid starting alongside this O-line again. I'm just hoping for that veteran swing Tackle, I don't have faith at all in Skule or Brunskill. Those two belong on the practice squad if you ask me.

We will get more OL help in the meantime we will likely see a lot 2 TE formations

Dropping this in and running...

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

It's not just NE. The Saints tend to consistently develop and produce good OLs, so do the Steelers for the most part.

It's clear that some teams are adapting. Being NFL ready doesn't mean the game and the development of players hasn't shifted. You could make the same argument for QB - how so few QBs are NFL-ready, yet it's no coincidence that head coaching prospects are offensive-minded QB guys who can spot and develop or fix a team's QB situation.

You do realize all those teams have had basically the same scheme for like 15+ yrs? They all have HOF QBs who are elite at reading defenses and know their scheme like the back of their hand.

good coaching plays a part no doubt. Being able to find scheme fit players is important regardless of the position. Let's not act like having bigBen/Brees/Brady doesn't help the OL overall.

Yes, I do realize this but you all are making the argument or implying that our OL can't be any better than is because *everyone* is having OL talent problems where allowing 125 hits isn't bad.

So here's where this gets confusing for me:

1) the OL can't be evaluated until Richburg and everyone gets healthy despite this group having health issues consistently.

2) OL talent is down league wide which explains some of it.

3) we haven't had a system for 15 years to make our guys better

4) people want elite pass protection from guards and it's not going to happen

5) what stud OL was available to pick in any draft for the past few years outside of McGlinchy?

6) looking for a backup during this part of the season is the best you can expect during this time of year.

For me all of these are responses and not answers why were carrying 8 OL, 7 WRs, 3 QBs and 4 TEs - while we scour the waiver wire and last chance FA for whatever we can find at swing tackle. I watch Kyles actions versus listening to explanations and his actions are loud and clear; OL just really isn't a priority outside of starters and maybe 1 or 2 back ups at most. If anything he's fine with our guys health and all. This compares to his personnel moves last off season when WR was a hot topic. Same thing. Many of us thought we needed more, and Kyle said "I like our guys" and Bourne ended up being the teams leading wideout.

We'll see if we needed more at OL. Only how patients will fans be after it takes another possible losing season for this to be figured out?

GM the thing that has been fairly obvious the last yr has been Kyle's evaluation of talents. Also his priorities in how many we carry of what position. Last yr he erred in WRs. This yr i agree with 3 QBs (which is unusual) but with our injured OL, esp interiors, understandable. Re: selection talent, kyle is a wunderkind on WRs, TEs, RBs and JL is superb with DLs./ LBs. Really like McG probably the best pick these guys have made. JimmyG...well, that just happened. They did say OK, however.

IDK, but wonder if kyle looks at QBs as "use until broken and then next man up", or not . What is interesting is the guy he originally brot on board, Hoyer, who was truly miscast here as a Qb (or because of our horrid OL). Then his jumping up for CJ in round 3. The gutsiest guy we have but real slow on his reads....too slow. Yet kyle chose him. Maybe he does it on guts...if you have guts, then kyle likes you. Wasn't that way with Hoyerr tho. That was just the wrong guy for here.

The other thing noticed was that kyle is hardheaded at times, and if he should make a mistake in a pick, eg, he stays with it. Seems like he doesn't like to be proven wrong...which many of us are guilty of. Still, it would seem that recognizing a mistake would be the better choice if it came to that.

On the positive side, kyle is so inventive and crazy smart that he may be way out ahead of us all. Adding 2 extra TEs as blockers...when other good OTs weren't available...brilliant. Can't wait to see that in action.

The real thing tho, will be to see if when kyle puts 11 guys on the field if the D has no idea if it is a running play or a pass play. If he has/can accomplish that, then, I think we all will look a whole lot differently on kyle and his way of doing things. I am expectant that is exactly what will happen, which will, obviously give us a huge advantage on O. It would be a huge unfair, advantage. By rights we should be able to have better personnel on the field than they can counter with, if our WR/TE/RBs , all 5 or 6 of them, can play any position, and not give away what play is coming. And THAT is what i hope, i expect to see. Don't know if it will work but i sure hope so. I also hope we are ready to try it.

So , yes, there are problems, but let's wait one game before making decisions....really a handful of games ...and then make opinions on what kyle has done...or not.

I Originally posted by NinerGM:
Yes, I do realize this but you all are making the argument or implying that our OL can't be any better than is because *everyone* is having OL talent problems where allowing 125 hits isn't bad.

So here's where this gets confusing for me:

1) the OL can't be evaluated until Richburg and everyone gets healthy despite this group having health issues consistently.

2) OL talent is down league wide which explains some of it.

3) we haven't had a system for 15 years to make our guys better

4) people want elite pass protection from guards and it's not going to happen

5) what stud OL was available to pick in any draft for the past few years outside of McGlinchy?

6) looking for a backup during this part of the season is the best you can expect during this time of year.

For me all of these are responses and not answers why were carrying 8 OL, 7 WRs, 3 QBs and 4 TEs - while we scour the waiver wire and last chance FA for whatever we can find at swing tackle. I watch Kyles actions versus listening to explanations and his actions are loud and clear; OL just really isn't a priority outside of starters and maybe 1 or 2 back ups at most. If anything he's fine with our guys health and all. This compares to his personnel moves last off season when WR was a hot topic. Same thing. Many of us thought we needed more, and Kyle said "I like our guys" and Bourne ended up being the teams leading wideout.

We'll see if we needed more at OL. Only how patients will fans be after it takes another possible losing season for this to be figured out?

I hope it will not come down to seeing jimmy get knocked out in order for people to see this line is not very good. if jimmy gets knocked out I really do not think anyone will say. oh its ok, all nfl teams have o line issues as if that is supposed to make us feel better. but who knows, homers are going to homer. as you said aside from , hopefully, adding some mid tier or below mid tier tackle or guard or both for depth. the line is as good as it will ever be . in regards to the three quarterbacks and four tight ends. we sure could have used two extra spots on SOMEONE . to me the want for cj and a want for a 4th tight end was not as critical as the need for some offensive line guy or maybe a decent safety. but again with cj. we are dealing with kyles ego in my opinion and i hope jimmy will not pay the price for that. of course cj would not bring us any elite player, which speaks volumes to how he never should have drafted by us where he was. but the bottom line. he did not deserve to be on this roster

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

The Saints also have Drew Brees who is probably second only to Brady in terms of how quickly he gets rid of the football. Maybe that part is just a coincidence.

Again you can get rid of the ball quickly and still get hit. Speed of delivery has no bearing if your OL is easily penetrated at the snap which ours is. Watch our games. Jimmy has a quick release. So does Mullens. They still get creamed routinely. Count how fast they get the ball out.

I encourage people to watch the games and assess. Compare their release to Brees and Brady. Kyle is not asking this QBs to hold the ball long. That simply isn't part of his offense. Beathard? Different story.

This is true too.

2018:
Tom Brady = 2.62 (TT) - 5.6 (CAY)
Nick Mullens = 2.7 (TT) - 5.8 (CAY)
C.J. Beathard = 2.61 (TT) - 5 (CAY)

2017:
Tom Brady = 2.71 (TT) - 6.6 (CAY)
Jimmy Garoppolo = 2.75 (TT) - 6.8 (CAY)
C.J. Beathard = 2.60 (TT) - 5.6 (CAY)

When you're getting rid of the ball this quickly and still getting hit 125 times, that's all OL.

Kyle kept 3 QB's for a reason. LOL

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Only Kyle and his father have shown you the blueprint of how they built offenses for yrs. They didn't have top guards. This is what everyone is complaining about, correct? Not have good/great guards? They've spent up at tackle and center and find scheme fits at guard.

It's a double edged sword with having subpar skilled players and good OL. Good skilled players help the OL just as well. Go look at Dallas, great OL with subpar WRs and TE and Dak got blasted all yr. It all goes hand and hand.

Personally I think the secondary is a bigger issue then upgrading a guard.

Upgrade the G's talent (push both to depth), young talented security at C, quality depth across the board.

Will Kyle address any of this in 2020? Like you said, not likely because his ego believes he can work around it (we're about to find out again if that's true).

And when one injury happens, and it will...

if the reason why kyle kept three quarterbacks is because he is worried his offensive line will get jimmy hurt. that does not fill me with confidence in regards to our coach

Originally posted by cciowa:

I hope it will not come down to seeing jimmy get knocked out in order for people to see this line is not very good. if jimmy gets knocked out I really do not think anyone will say. oh its ok, all nfl teams have o line issues as if that is supposed to make us feel better. but who knows, homers are going to homer. as you said aside from , hopefully, adding some mid tier or below mid tier tackle or guard or both for depth. the line is as good as it will ever be . in regards to the three quarterbacks and four tight ends. we sure could have used two extra spots on SOMEONE . to me the want for cj and a want for a 4th tight end was not as critical as the need for some offensive line guy or maybe a decent safety. but again with cj. we are dealing with kyles ego in my opinion and i hope jimmy will not pay the price for that. of course cj would not bring us any elite player, which speaks volumes to how he never should have drafted by us where he was. but the bottom line. he did not deserve to be on this roster

So laughable that you think you have a better grasp on the oline situation than the coaches. Or even that you think you're the only person worried about the oline. Or that you think the pool of oline FA talent is such that the team has somehow missed out on someone who isn't at all comparable to someone else available down the line.

Child please.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by genus49:
Dropping this in and running...

.@joethomas73 on @923TheFan re: #Browns o-line: "I'm not concerned about it because the QB makes the offensive line. As long as Baker's playing well, there's no concern from the offensive line standpoint." Says Freddie and co. can scheme around strengths/weaknesses

— Keith Britton (@KeithBritton86) September 4, 2019

I'll raise your tweet with this article with a bit more research (science) behind it.

It is not all on the offensive line. There are a few QBs that have survived and thrived with poor pass protection. And good OL protection will not turn a poor QB into a good one.

Dolphins last year had a really bad Offensive Line which ranked 7th worst in Pass Blocking Efficiency. But that was far from the only problem as both of their QBs were below average when provided with a clean pocket.

But there is no question that good Offensive Line Play is an important ingredient of an NFL passing offense.

Teams who tried to mask the deficiencies in the OL by throwing fast a lot saw that they were able to reduce the pressure rates but that did not affect their win %. In many cases defenses were able to generate pressure and sacks even under 2.5 seconds.

https://www.thephinsider.com/2019/7/21/20702713/how-important-is-the-offensive-line-in-the-nfl-passing-game-a-look-at

That's not what Joe is saying though. This has been my point with bringing up the Pats and Tom Brady.

Our OL isn't the Dallas Cowboys in their prime but they're not garbage either.

A QB and scheme can take the guys you have and elevate their play. Good communication, reads by the QB help out a lot. It's not just about throwing fast though certainly if you get the ball out quick that helps your OL since they don't have to block for deep drops and beyond 3+ seconds often.