49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Wow! Well come to think of it, he does have the coaching chops, I mean he's played in man blocking and now he's doing fantastic in zone blocking. Coach Monte Clark (former 49er OLineman) was HC here in '76 and a lot of the '81 OLinemen were either acquired by him in '76 or developed by him in '76 before McKittrick got on board in '79. I"m thinking Coach Staley - having played both styles, would be a great coach for Kyle, should that ever happen.

That and he's a leader and a HUGE technician which is key to coaching...something I feel we might be lacking.

All good coaches must have good communication skills. Staley has a ton on the Joe Show

Seriously though, he seems to have a beautiful family. Not sure he will give that up for the coaching grind. If he ever drives his family crazy staying at home upon retirement, there might be a slim chance he'll looked into coaching.

Real nice to see Joe having fun again in his late years with McG on the team. The team isn't winning much these days, but at least he has that comradery to reinvigorate. I see Joe as lucky. So many Olineman just fade away in retirement on a losing team.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Bentley works with a very small select group of OL

He works with numerous college and pro athletes. He gets to see guys at every level of competition.

When it comes to the current state of OL play in the NFL and football in general, I'm going to assume that guys like Bentley and Schlereth probably know best and they've been consistently saying the same things for years.

This isn't something that just happened, these issues with OL performance have been going on for at least a decade now. Its not a coincidence that OL went from one of the safest positions to select in the first two rounds to one of the riskiest. I made a whole thread about it in the draft forum a few years ago. It hasn't gotten any better since.

Perfectly fair. If talent (a hard metric to quantify) indeed is dropping off we should start to see key run blocking and pass protection metrics fall off too from those of 10 years ago. I doubt that actually is the case.

I'm willing to concede we're at the cusp of that right now because of how the college and NFL game has changed recently in how it's moved from blocking-focus to passing-focus with less of an emphasis on needing premier balanced talent anymore. Similar to RB's and how they've been deemphasized. How Harbaugh went power OL to beat up on trending smaller pass rushing DL. The league runs in trends and the talent and focus on developing those positions follow. We're seeing a change in the punting game too.

But if your claim is in fact true and actual talent really has been steadily dropping off over the last 10 years, this emphasizes the importance even more to build the best line possible right now and that does seem to match NFL trends given why so many teams are trading their high draft picks away for them, paying top $ for them in FA and trading up high for them.

...time is ticking, right?

You're building a good case.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
Can we at least agree that they haven't 'completely neglected' the O line since Lynch and Kyle took over.

Certainly agree. Neglect is different than prioritization. We're somewhere in between.

Well, let's take a comprehensive look at position groups signed and drafted since they got here. I've tried to get as comprehensive as I could. It's hard to get ALL the information since the 49ers website doesn't keep their past years's transactions active all the time. But, here's a breakdown of players signed during their tenure so far:
DB: 28
LB: 14
DL: 23
OL: 30
RB: 11
TE: 8
WR: 20
QB: 7
SPC: 6

So, OL is actually the area where they have acquired the most players in their time here. I don't know how we could say it's not a priority or being neglected.

Sure, we can make an argument of top resources, I.E. high draft capital or free agent monies, but, even then you still have a 1st round pick and the 2nd highest free agent signing.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Well, let's take a comprehensive look at position groups signed and drafted since they got here. I've tried to get as comprehensive as I could. It's hard to get ALL the information since the 49ers website doesn't keep their past years's transactions active all the time. But, here's a breakdown of players signed during their tenure so far:
DB: 28
LB: 14
DL: 23
OL: 30
RB: 11
TE: 8
WR: 20
QB: 7
SPC: 6

So, OL is actually the area where they have acquired the most players in their time here. I don't know how we could say it's not a priority or being neglected.

Sure, we can make an argument of top resources, I.E. high draft capital or free agent monies, but, even then you still have a 1st round pick and the 2nd highest free agent signing.

I have all the transactions over all the years in my Team Needs thread. When you list out that huge volume it'll change your tune.

Prioritization is what we've done with the DL as it includes quality, not just quantity.

I'm past worrying about who they should have drafted. With the season just 5 days away I'm more concerned about seeing results from the guys they did pick up. If the defense is really improved it will not only take pressure off the offense by getting better field position but it will free up the front office to focus more on offense line next year. That and DB's are the last relatively weak parts.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

I'm past worrying about who they should have drafted. With the season just 5 days away I'm more concerned about seeing results from the guys they did pick up. If the defense is really improved it will not only take pressure off the offense by getting better field position but it will free up the front office to focus more on offense line next year. That and DB's are the last relatively weak parts.

Perfectly said. It is what it is now. The bed has been made. Now go kick some ass and allay these concerns!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Well, let's take a comprehensive look at position groups signed and drafted since they got here. I've tried to get as comprehensive as I could. It's hard to get ALL the information since the 49ers website doesn't keep their past years's transactions active all the time. But, here's a breakdown of players signed during their tenure so far:
DB: 28
LB: 14
DL: 23
OL: 30
RB: 11
TE: 8
WR: 20
QB: 7
SPC: 6

So, OL is actually the area where they have acquired the most players in their time here. I don't know how we could say it's not a priority or being neglected.

Sure, we can make an argument of top resources, I.E. high draft capital or free agent monies, but, even then you still have a 1st round pick and the 2nd highest free agent signing.

I have all the transactions over all the years in my Team Needs thread. When you list out that huge volume it'll change your tune.

Prioritization is what we've done with the DL as it includes quality, not just quantity.

No, it won't change my tune. You can't qualify a statement by, "quality, not just quantity" with 20/20 hindsight vision.

Our TE group is very strong, yet we didn't invest anything above a 5th round pick in that area. Our QB group looks good(ostensibly) as we have Jimmy G #1, Mullens #2. Mullens was an undrafted free agent, yet, would make any NFL roster, IMO.

Our RB group looks strong, even without our top RB signing because of UDFA Breida and mid-level Coleman signings.

Our LB corps looks very strong with a 3rd round pick, 5th round pick and UDFA pushing out veterans with guaranteed money.

I will agree that DL has been the biggest priority. 2, 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick traded. That's a lot of high capital. However, I don't know if you knew, but when they got here WE HAD THE 3rd WORST RUN DEFENSE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL!!!!!

You're darn right it was a priority. It should've been, and was, the highest priority to turn this team around.

Let's just really look at how bad that run defense was. In yards allowed per game there have only been 108 teams that have allowed more rushing yards per game, with most of those coming from the run heavy eras as we allowed the most rushing yards per game since 1990(that's after the run defense faced much easier competition late in the year and improved from 180 YPG allowed to 166). Yet, that was in a season with the fewest rushing attempts per game in NFL history. So, in the season when the NFL ran the ball the least, we allowed some of most yards per game rushing. Adjusted against league averages we were 3rd worst in NFL history in stopping the run. So, am I glad they invested in the DL? Heck yes I am.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Thanks. I don't follow them because eff the Cowboys. Appreciate that.

Smith only missed 3 games. TF did miss the whole yr, almost like having a center out there with a torn quad for 13 games

Appreciate the clarity/context.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Bentley works with a very small select group of OL

He works with numerous college and pro athletes. He gets to see guys at every level of competition.



When it comes to the current state of OL play in the NFL and football in general, I'm going to assume that guys like Bentley and Schlereth probably know best and they've been consistently saying the same things for years.



This isn't something that just happened, these issues with OL performance have been going on for at least a decade now. Its not a coincidence that OL went from one of the safest positions to select in the first two rounds to one of the riskiest. I made a whole thread about it in the draft forum a few years ago. It hasn't gotten any better since.

This was and continues to be pathetic. Your comments re: Big 10, and Notre Dame, esp Mich, Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin....spot on. Man USC for yrs was an OL factory and they pushed out starter OLs yr after Yr. Then, somebody left, (maybe sarkanian??) and all of a sudden, USC quit producing OLs. It was the collegiate equivalent of Bob McKittrick. Now, really the few OLs that are really good ones....well McG...there's our example.

Giedi's comment about great OLs from the BIG 10 and inclement weather....may very well have a part to play. If you are half azz OLineman at a big 10 school, that won't cut it. Those guys have to learn to be good blockers and pass Pro guys in the mud, sleet, snow, rain and cold. Half azz in the Big 10 won't make the cut. Those guys HAVE to be real good.

For comedic purposes only. The big uglies are awesome.

Originally posted by NCommand:
For comedic purposes only. The big uglies are awesome.

O-Line highlights are my favorite highlights. https://t.co/DiaZj8k4hk

— Kyle Brandt (@KyleBrandt) September 3, 2019

gave up 16 sacks this yr doe but yes we all love a good OL out in space run blocking like a mother Fer.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

No, it won't change my tune. You can't qualify a statement by, "quality, not just quantity" with 20/20 hindsight vision.

Our TE group is very strong, yet we didn't invest anything above a 5th round pick in that area. Our QB group looks good(ostensibly) as we have Jimmy G #1, Mullens #2. Mullens was an undrafted free agent, yet, would make any NFL roster, IMO.

Our RB group looks strong, even without our top RB signing because of UDFA Breida and mid-level Coleman signings.

Our LB corps looks very strong with a 3rd round pick, 5th round pick and UDFA pushing out veterans with guaranteed money.

I will agree that DL has been the biggest priority. 2, 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick traded. That's a lot of high capital. However, I don't know if you knew, but when they got here WE HAD THE 3rd WORST RUN DEFENSE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL!!!!!

You're darn right it was a priority. It should've been, and was, the highest priority to turn this team around.

Let's just really look at how bad that run defense was. In yards allowed per game there have only been 108 teams that have allowed more rushing yards per game, with most of those coming from the run heavy eras as we allowed the most rushing yards per game since 1990(that's after the run defense faced much easier competition late in the year and improved from 180 YPG allowed to 166). Yet, that was in a season with the fewest rushing attempts per game in NFL history. So, in the season when the NFL ran the ball the least, we allowed some of most yards per game rushing. Adjusted against league averages we were 3rd worst in NFL history in stopping the run. So, am I glad they invested in the DL? Heck yes I am.

Prioritizing is throwing high resources at a position you believe to be important in your rebuild. It's the first things you target: QB, ER/DL, OL, skill positions, etc.

Bringing in a bunch of crap (100 transactions) hoping something sticks on the wall isn't prioritizing...it's not total neglect either.

Overall we never neglected the OL but individually, it looked like this:

2016: Neglect
LOT: Joe Staley; John Theus
LG: Andrew Tiller; Andrew Gardner
C: Zane Beadles; Alex Balducci (Daniel Kilgore & Marcus Martin)
RG: Joshua Garnett
ROT: Trenton Brown

2017: Mild Neglect
LOT: Joe Staley
LG: Laken Tomlinson
C: Daniel Kilgore; Tim Barnes
RG: Brandon Fusco
ROT: (Trenton Brown); Zane Beadles & Darrell Williams Jr.

2018: Priority
LT: Joe Staley; Shon Coleman
LG: Laken Tomlinson
C: Weston Richburg; Erik Magnuson
RG: Mike Person; Joshua Garnett
RT: Mike McGlinchey; Garry Gilliam

2019: Neglect (not a single move made to "improve")
LT: Joe Staley; Daniel Brunskill (Shon Coleman)
LG: Laken Tomlinson
C: (Weston Richburg); Ben Garland
RG: Mike Person
RT: Mike McGlinchey; Justin Skule 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you end up with a 976 page thread and the team's consensus weakness.

The fans think 2020 will be a priority. I hope they are right!

PS: As an example, you're right, the FO didn't prioritize the TE position. They totally lucked into it not having to become one.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

gave up 16 sacks this yr doe but yes we all love a good OL out in space run blocking like a mother Fer.

I love pancakes! Esp. pancakes in space. Throw in some old T.Brown, Kittle and McGlinchey. Ahhhh, good times.

I suspect this thread will be active from Sunday on through the week. OL faces a tall task against one of the best blitzing DC's in the game. Run game will be our friend on Sunday because while they lack talent on the edges, their DC knows how to manufacture pressure and calls an aggressive game.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

This was and continues to be pathetic. Your comments re: Big 10, and Notre Dame, esp Mich, Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin....spot on. Man USC for yrs was an OL factory and they pushed out starter OLs yr after Yr. Then, somebody left, (maybe sarkanian??) and all of a sudden, USC quit producing OLs. It was the collegiate equivalent of Bob McKittrick. Now, really the few OLs that are really good ones....well McG...there's our example.

Giedi's comment about great OLs from the BIG 10 and inclement weather....may very well have a part to play. If you are half azz OLineman at a big 10 school, that won't cut it. Those guys have to learn to be good blockers and pass Pro guys in the mud, sleet, snow, rain and cold. Half azz in the Big 10 won't make the cut. Those guys HAVE to be real good.

I think that plays a part in it. Those teams that play physical style of football, run the ball a whole lot, they usually invest a lot of time in scouting, recruiting and developing top notch linemen. Its also the philosophy that comes from the top. Chryst at Wisconsin, Ferentz at Iowa, Dantonio at Michigan State, Harbaugh at Michigan, Notre Dame with Hiestand as OL coach. These are all guys with pro-style mindsets who run programs that mimic pro organizations.


If I was an NFL GM I'd be looking first at those programs as well as Bama and Georgia to search for potential linemen. I think its already pretty clear that Kyle has an affinity for Ferentz and the Hawkeyes program so I'd especially keep an eye on the OLs they have coming down the pipeline.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

This was and continues to be pathetic. Your comments re: Big 10, and Notre Dame, esp Mich, Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin....spot on. Man USC for yrs was an OL factory and they pushed out starter OLs yr after Yr. Then, somebody left, (maybe sarkanian??) and all of a sudden, USC quit producing OLs. It was the collegiate equivalent of Bob McKittrick. Now, really the few OLs that are really good ones....well McG...there's our example.

Giedi's comment about great OLs from the BIG 10 and inclement weather....may very well have a part to play. If you are half azz OLineman at a big 10 school, that won't cut it. Those guys have to learn to be good blockers and pass Pro guys in the mud, sleet, snow, rain and cold. Half azz in the Big 10 won't make the cut. Those guys HAVE to be real good.

I think that plays a part in it. Those teams that play physical style of football, run the ball a whole lot, they usually invest a lot of time in scouting, recruiting and developing top notch linemen. Its also the philosophy that comes from the top. Chryst at Wisconsin, Ferentz at Iowa, Dantonio at Michigan State, Harbaugh at Michigan, Notre Dame with Hiestand as OL coach. These are all guys with pro-style mindsets who run programs that mimic pro organizations.


If I was an NFL GM I'd be looking first at those programs as well as Bama and Georgia to search for potential linemen. I think its already pretty clear that Kyle has an affinity for Ferentz and the Hawkeyes program so I'd especially keep an eye on the OLs they have coming down the pipeline.

100%!