Perception vs. Reality...

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

It ain't about tearing down a player. What amazes me is how people can't seem to see that a great player was no longer the player we remember him to be.

I've said several times here that I want Pat to come back and play. I still want that...but it isn't sacrilege to look at a player who played REALLY, REALLY well last year and say its not a huge downgrade.

Borland was a contender for ROY last year before he got hurt...and that was after missing the first 6 games of the season. Why is it so terrible to suggest he might continue to be good? Why is that insulting. Pats place in Niner lore is cemented. Nobody is tearing him down.

Borlands stats went down as the season went along. Not trying to say he won't be a solid performer, even superior. But losing willis is bad, even on 9 toes and 30 years old. He was ranked #3 ILB last year beofre surgery. I guess that's being a "shell of his former self."

if you call recording 16 then 14 tackles in his last two full games..going down..damn !

In Pats 6 games last year, his best game was 8 tackles.

In Borlands starts, his WORST game (that he was able to finish) was 8 tackles. He also had games with 18, 17, 13, 16, and 14.

Come on now Brodie. It isn't sacrilege to simply suggest that the position won't be a huge downgrade especially since he'll be surrounded by Bowman, Aldon, and Brooks.

I'll also add in the games Borland started, he was playing ILB at a higher level than anyone else in the league imo. I didn't see another ILB fly around and make the plays he did week after week like he did last year.

Not saying Borland is as good, or ever will be as good as Willis. We're talking about a HOF player. But Borland is a damn good player in his own right.

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
It ain't about tearing down a player. What amazes me is how people can't seem to see that a great player was no longer the player we remember him to be.

I've said several times here that I want Pat to come back and play. I still want that...but it isn't sacrilege to look at a player who played REALLY, REALLY well last year and say its not a huge downgrade.

Borland was a contender for ROY last year before he got hurt...and that was after missing the first 6 games of the season. Why is it so terrible to suggest he might continue to be good? Why is that insulting. Pats place in Niner lore is cemented. Nobody is tearing him down.

Borlands stats went down as the season went along. Not trying to say he won't be a solid performer, even superior. But losing willis is bad, even on 9 toes and 30 years old. He was ranked #3 ILB last year beofre surgery. I guess that's being a "shell of his former self."

if you call recording 16 then 14 tackles in his last two full games..going down..damn !

In Pats 6 games last year, his best game was 8 tackles.

In Borlands starts, his WORST game (that he was able to finish) was 8 tackles. He also had games with 18, 17, 13, 16, and 14.

Come on now Brodie. It isn't sacrilege to simply suggest that the position won't be a huge downgrade especially since he'll be surrounded by Bowman, Aldon, and Brooks.

I'll also add in the games Borland started, he was playing ILB at a higher level than anyone else in the league. I didn't see another ILB fly around and make the plays he did week after week like he did last year.

Not saying Borland is as good, or ever will be as good as Willis. We're talking about a HOF player. But Borland is a damn good player in his own right.

That's what I'm sayin'.

I'd rather lose a player a year early versus a year too late. Pat Willis was slowing down in 2013, now we know why. If it isn't Borland, I'm sure we will find another ILB as good as Willis was in 2012/2013 (very few LBs in the history of the game are as good as Willis was from 2007-2010). But Borland shows promise.

Gore is 31. I know people in the Zone feel very strongly that Roman is trash, but he and Harbaugh schemed the running game as good as anyone. I think Gore's success the past few years is as much attributable to the blocking scheme as to anything else. His age and lack of speed will be exposed in Indy. We are moving to a zone blocking scheme and, hopefully, more of the read option, which suits Hyde better anyway. Plus, deep RB draft. We will be fine here.

Iupati may be in the prime of his career. But his pass blocking isn't great, he's had a history of injuries, and I don't mind if we, as a franchise, never commit $8 million a season to a guard.

Stevie Johnson is getting old and was overpaid. I'd rather have Boldin as an intermediary threat and I want to see our young guys. Switching Torrey Smith in place of Crabtree is an upgrade, if only because we needed a speed guy, not two possession receivers.

Justin Smith is 36. Like Willis, a great player. But, like Willis, too many fans look at them as they performed 3-4 years ago, not as they performed last year. Smith didn't practice, his body is wearing down. I'd hate to be reliant on him, like we were two years ago, only to have him suffer another injury. Those reps now belong to Carradine, IMO.

Losing Ray McDonald ... we replaced him with Dockett who, though perhaps not as great against the run, is probably the better pass rusher at this stage of their respective careers. Plus, getting Dorsey and Williams back. Plus a deep draft of DL. We will be fine at DL well.

No one is really emphasizing it, but the key losses are Culliver and Cox, and I can't even figure out if those are really "key" because Donatell is gone, as is Fangio's scheme. Who knows what will be asked of our CBs under Mangini ... but we are pretty inexperienced at that position.

Bottom line, we may not be as deep as last year but only time will tell. Our success will hinge on Colin Kaepernick. If he develops into a true franchise-caliber QB, we will be fine.

Amen OP.

This team is a lot of unknowns right now but it doesn't mean they're destined for a decade of losing seasons.

Trent Baalke for all the hate he gets has done a SUPERB job in free agency in his tenure.

Honestly the only guy who left us in free agency who we never replaced with a better version was Delanie Walker and that's because another team was willing to pay him #1 TE money and we use him as a #2 TE.

People need to relax and just see how things go.

1, 2, 3 and 4 are true. Plus much more too. That's just he beginning.

Originally posted by SofaKing:
I'll also add in the games Borland started, he was playing ILB at a higher level than anyone else in the league imo. I didn't see another ILB fly around and make the plays he did week after week like he did last year.

Not saying Borland is as good, or ever will be as good as Willis. We're talking about a HOF player. But Borland is a damn good player in his own right.

Sure. I'm curious how Borland will hold up once the tape starts to grow on him.

No ones going to replace the physical presence of Willis. No one.

And could posters please stop with the refrain that we're all judging these guys from 3-4 years ago. No one is doing that.

Gore was productive last year. Willis was productive last year. Smith was our best lineman last year. Stevie Johnson was our second best receiver last year.

I don't know what motives people have in making great players in the latter stages of their career sound like broken down garbage. But its kind of insulting, not objective, and not appreciated,

It could very easily be interpreted as pandering propaganda for a front office that has orchestrated one of the most incoherent, out of control and unplanned off season coaching and personnel changes in the history of the nfl.

It may prove to be disastrous, or not.

But one thing I do know is that Trent Baalke and Jed York are steering nothing. They're just along for the ride at this point.

When I hear Baalke kicking the tires and kissie kissie sweet talking a ten year UNDERACHIEVING DO NOTHING like reggie bush 5 minutes after Frank Gore has left the building because Baalke was too much of a tight wad to offer a second year guarantee, I see front office desperation trying to pretend its business as usual in the NFL.Thanks for betting the farm on Torrey Smith too. That really filled our number one need.

Good job, pennywise, good job.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Disp:

Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
That doesn't make him better than PW it just means he had a good year. Watch how Borland gets eaten up by olinemen, how he struggles to get sideline to sideline, how he STRUGGLED to tackle Lynch then let's re-visit this conversation.

Where do people get this? He had 11 stuffs. Dude constantly knifed through the offensive line and tackled for a loss. That was like his signature throughout the season.

these are the same guys saying we suck...when they didnt even watch any games last year

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by SofaKing:
I'll also add in the games Borland started, he was playing ILB at a higher level than anyone else in the league imo. I didn't see another ILB fly around and make the plays he did week after week like he did last year.

Not saying Borland is as good, or ever will be as good as Willis. We're talking about a HOF player. But Borland is a damn good player in his own right.

Sure. I'm curious how Borland will hold up once the tape starts to grow on him.

No ones going to replace the physical presence of Willis. No one.

And could posters please stop with the refrain that we're all judging these guys from 3-4 years ago. No one is doing that.

Gore was productive last year. Willis was productive last year. Smith was our best lineman last year. Stevie Johnson was our second best receiver last year.

I don't know what motives people have in making great players in the latter stages of their career sound like broken down garbage. But its kind of insulting, not objective, and not appreciated,

It could very easily be interpreted as pandering propaganda for a front office that has orchestrated one of the most incoherent, out of control and unplanned off season coaching and personnel changes in the history of the nfl.

It may prove to be disastrous, or not.

But one thing I do know is that Trent Baalke and Jed York are steering nothing. They're just along for the ride at this point.

When I hear Baalke kicking the tires and kissie kissie sweet talking a ten year UNDERACHIEVING DO NOTHING like reggie bush 5 minutes after Frank Gore has left the building because Baalke was too much of a tight wad to offer a second year guarantee, I see front office desperation trying to pretend its business as usual in the NFL.Thanks for betting the farm on Torrey Smith too. That really filled our number one need.

Good job, pennywise, good job.

I hear you. I also can't stand when fans are fickle like that. They love a guy for many years, then trash him or understate his contributions once he doesn't wear the uniform anymore. Willis' talent, production, and leadership is rare. VERY rare. I'm a big fan of Borland, but I'm not going to hold him to that standard. He's his own player with his own skill set.

Disagree with your assessment of the Gore situation. I never saw the 49ers matching any kind of multi-year deal w/ guaranteed money for Gore's services. He's 32 years old, the end is near, and we drafted a very talented runner in Carlos Hyde to take his place. It's time to move on with the younger, fresher player who has a future. Indy and Philly, the two teams who most heavily pursued him, had nothing at the position and were desperate for a proven RB. I can understand why we parted ways with Gore. Sad to see him go, but the time was right for both sides to move on. I wish him well.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000112520/Gore-picks-up-fumble-for-TD

Agree to disagree on Frank.

Trust me, we will miss him much more here than he will disappoint there.

The deep ball stuff.

I think his accuracy has been inconsistent. We can say Moss and Walker helped in 2012 but its accuracy at issue here not opportunity.

http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/26/5145090/colin-kaepernicks-deep-ball-49ers

Above the writer theorizes that Kaps deep ball in 2012 was unsustainable. Or almost lucky. 2013 and 2014 the accuracy has declined each year. Not only completion % but accuracy as well.

He had this to say:

"In 2012, Colin managed a league-leading accuracy percentage on deep balls of 60%, and he only threw 1 pick in 33 attempts, for an INT rate of 3.0. Both his completion and INT rates are far superior to league averages, meaning we could expect heavy regression at some point."

So the question is, was 2012 the norm or an anomaly? Kap was ranked around 20th on deep ball accuracy in 2014. Open man, covered, speed or no speed the accuracy wasnt there.

On defense we're keeping Brooks around, if Justin Smith stays, the Dockett addition feels good. It boils down to Cox and Culliver. Losing Pat hurts but our defense did GREAT in 2014 without him. It still boils down to our offense.

Losing Gore was expected either in 2015 or 2016. It won't hurt as much if we bring in another vet to rotate with Hyde/Hunter. Losing Iupati hurts the run game and that's a big question mark but a better pass blocker might open up more opportunity in the passing game.

For me, the issue remains the offense and the main improvements needed revolve around O-line, Kap's pocket game and offensive schemes. It's a "prove it" year for our franchise QB. If he doesn't step up big time I can see him being shown the door for 2016. It's also an o-line and coaching issue.

I feel like the 2015 season could go either way. The draft will have an impact this year and Chryst has to prove himself as well. A lot of unknowns. Don't think all hope is lost...yet.

Originally posted by Phil:

The deep ball stuff.

I think his accuracy has been inconsistent. We can say Moss and Walker helped in 2012 but its accuracy at issue here not opportunity.

http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/26/5145090/colin-kaepernicks-deep-ball-49ers

Above the writer theorizes that Kaps deep ball in 2012 was unsustainable. Or almost lucky. 2013 and 2014 the accuracy has declined each year. Not only completion % but accuracy as well.

He had this to say:

"In 2012, Colin managed a league-leading accuracy percentage on deep balls of 60%, and he only threw 1 pick in 33 attempts, for an INT rate of 3.0. Both his completion and INT rates are far superior to league averages, meaning we could expect heavy regression at some point."

So the question is, was 2012 the norm or an anomaly? Kap was ranked around 20th on deep ball accuracy in 2014. Open man, covered, speed or no speed the accuracy wasnt there.

On defense we're keeping Brooks around, if Justin Smith stays, the Dockett addition feels good. It boils down to Cox and Culliver. Losing Pat hurts but our defense did GREAT in 2014 without him. It still boils down to our offense.

Losing Gore was expected either in 2015 or 2016. It won't hurt as much if we bring in another vet to rotate with Hyde/Hunter. Losing Iupati hurts the run game and that's a big question mark but a better pass blocker might open up more opportunity in the passing game.

For me, the issue remains the offense and the main improvements needed revolve around O-line, Kap's pocket game and offensive schemes. It's a "prove it" year for our franchise QB. If he doesn't step up big time I can see him being shown the door for 2016. It's also an o-line and coaching issue.

I feel like the 2015 season could go either way. The draft will have an impact this year and Chryst has to prove himself as well. A lot of unknowns. Don't think all hope is lost...yet.

We don't show the door to a high caliber QB if we don't have someone better to take over

The fans here who think harbaugh and roman were helping the team last year believe we will get worse and are all doom and gloom. I believe they were holding us back. That the first year they brought stability and novelty to the team. The two years after that the novelty began to wear off and they began to realize it. They then tried to put the game on CKs shoulders where his weaknesses were exposed.

The CK hype prior to that was overblown. I know many people (probably close to 50/50 of fans of other teams) who thought even when he was putting up records in his first half season and full season he was a middle of the road qb. Teams have caught on and been able to exploit his weaknesses. Without a deep threat aka ginn or moss it is easy to limit CKs game. Now that we have smith and simpson as long as they get time on the field CK should look better than the supposed "regression" he had last year. He was not any worse last season or better than the seasons before. He was just exposed without a deep threat or a top 5 running game. He has neither improved nor regressed throughout his tenure here.

The reality of the fact is hyde will need to be a top 10 rb next year for us to look like a playoff team. The deep ball will need to be thrown to keep teams honest and CK will need to run like every game is the playoffs. Let him play his game and dont rely on him improving or trying to make him something he is not. When the game is on the line lean on other players and not on CK. Put the game in boldin, hyde, or torrey smiths hands and hope they win us the game.

Originally posted by BoldRedandGold:
The fans here who think harbaugh and roman were helping the team last year believe we will get worse and are all doom and gloom. I believe they were holding us back. That the first year they brought stability and novelty to the team. The two years after that the novelty began to wear off and they began to realize it. They then tried to put the game on CKs shoulders where his weaknesses were exposed.

The CK hype prior to that was overblown. I know many people (probably close to 50/50 of fans of other teams) who thought even when he was putting up records in his first half season and full season he was a middle of the road qb. Teams have caught on and been able to exploit his weaknesses. Without a deep threat aka ginn or moss it is easy to limit CKs game. Now that we have smith and simpson as long as they get time on the field CK should look better than the supposed "regression" he had last year. He was not any worse last season or better than the seasons before. He was just exposed without a deep threat or a top 5 running game. He has neither improved nor regressed throughout his tenure here.

The reality of the fact is hyde will need to be a top 10 rb next year for us to look like a playoff team. The deep ball will need to be thrown to keep teams honest and CK will need to run like every game is the playoffs. Let him play his game and dont rely on him improving or trying to make him something he is not. When the game is on the line lean on other players and not on CK. Put the game in boldin, hyde, or torrey smiths hands and hope they win us the game.

IMO the OL was the single greatest reason for failure this season, as well as having the stupidest system in the NFL. CK has actually improved this season. If you followed the weekly game coaches film mock-up thread you will see examples of CK improving almost every game in terms of his weaknesses. Stop pretending only QBs not named CK can actually get better. Guys like Stafford, Cutler all have weaknesses but almost no one treats them like absolute machines impossible to grow and develop. CK has a way higher work ethic than Stafford or Cutler for example and yet CK is unable to improve? Hes played less games and was never from apart of a pro system in college, give the guy who works hard a break.

I mean do you remember what Kap looked like those two preseasons when Alex was the starter??? He was garbage, raw as hell and he worked all the way from that to where he is today. If anyone can make it to the absolute top, it's him period, barring injury.

People keep saying, dont try and turn him into something hes not. I'd say if theres ever been a player who has the physical and mental talent to adapt and create his own rules to the game, its Kap. He has the ability to be a Peyton/Brees/Rodgers, if he wants to. Whether he does remains to be seen but it isn't written in stone.

Marvin very insightful..but I disagrre..harbs was a dam good coach but what makes a coach a great ..the ability to adjust ...let's face harbs was to predictable & would not fire roman ...
As far as kap...I see people bashing him but my only gripe is a o c that wants to make a mobility qb into the pocket passer ..what roman was doing was like putting P manning into a pistol formation...it is not his strength ...the d that is a tuff one ...willis was a major loss ....I hate to say these but baalke has his downfall ..no 1 receivers in four years ....& knowing the cowboy was on his last leg..last year would should have gotten Louis nix for Norte dame & no qb to develop

Originally posted by Disp:
I know Niners fans are protective of Willis' legacy, but saying Borland isn't close to Willis in his prime is ridiculous. Feels similar to what Young went through when he took over for Montana. Maybe we can watch his first full season starting before saying he "can't" be as good as Willis was. For comparison, here is Willis' rookie season with 16 starts vs. Borland's with 8. Borland had twice as many stuffed plays, same passes defensed, same number of turnovers...in half the play time. There are certainly areas he needs to be improve (like all players), but let's not pretend he's just some above average player.



As far as the rest Marvin, I agree with nearly everything you said. I think people are mostly so upset just because of the amount of long time players we lost in such a short time, and that's clouding up reality. Look at the talent we've seen in just the last couple years that would've been cast off had we played it "safe" and re-signed players we lost.

Sopoaga - Williams/Dorsey
Goldson - Reid
Whitner - Bethea
Rogers & Brown - Johnson/Brock/Cox
Willis - Borland
Goodwin - Kilgore
Smith - Kaep
Brooks - Lynch
Crabtre - Torrey Smith

Other than Willis - Borland I think it's pretty clear that the replacement is better than the player we lost. We've got exciting prospects waiting in the wing too with Marcus Martin, Brandon Thomas, Carradine, Dial, Hyde, Acker/Reaser/Millard, Other than the unknowns with our coaching staff, it's tough for me to be anything but optimistic about the future. This team is still absolutely loaded.

Terrific post!