Perception vs. Reality...

Originally posted by sdaddy101269:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by NeonNiner:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Boralnd was avg 15 tackles a game and even had a couple of INTs which was hard for pat to get and recovered fumbles...if he keeps playing that way..could be leaps and bounds better then PW

The level of delusion on this site is just reaching an all time high at this point.

seriously this

please bring some facts to why

Pat was DROY and first team all-pro as a rookie. Borland was neither

that is your comeback ?

Borland a third string player coming off the bench started 7-8 games won DPOTW and Month and almost ended with 100 tackle in half a season..when some LBs could even get that in 16 games

Look at PW's first year stats, then look at CB's...Borland was having a better year...the only thing better Pat did was have more tackles which CB would have beat easily if he would ahve started the season

That doesn't make him better than PW it just means he had a good year. Watch how Borland gets eaten up by olinemen, how he struggles to get sideline to sideline, how he STRUGGLED to tackle Lynch then let's re-visit this conversation.

How does one struggle but get so many tackles, recover fumbles, actually intercept balls .. hardly anyone can tackle lynch but did put lynch on his ass that i have seen anyone do

Originally posted by Marvin49:

So I again made the mistake of getting charged up listening to talk radio this morning (gotta stop doing that)..

It was on 95.7 the game. One of the hosts was talking about how from a talent perspective the team may not be as bad off as most let on while one of the other hosts was IMO spewing nonsense. It got me thinking about everything that's happened in the last few months.

Let me start off by saying right off the bat that this isn'[t intended to be a "feel good" post. The Niners are talking some SIGNIFICANT losses this year and they are going to feel it...particularly in the locker room. I don't want to undersell that...but I also want to be clear that IMO it isn't anywhere near as grim as many are letting on.

I guess the best way I can explain it is that we have simply replaced known quantities with unknown quantities. That doesn't mean those unknown quantities will be good or bad and it doesn't mean that those known quantities would ever be again what our perceptions of them are. If that doesn't make sense, let me elaborate.


1) Kaepernick - "Colin is incapable of throwing the deep ball, therefore signing Torrey Smith is a waste of money". This one cracks me up. Whats worse is that like one person said it in a blog somewhere and now people take it as fact and use it in conversation as a foregone conclusion.

Amazes me that people never look at anything more deeply that what they are told to believe.

First off, in 2012, Kap averaged 8.3 yards per attempt with a 62.4% comp%. He was the MOST ACCURATE QB IN THE NFL ON PASSES OVER 20 YARDS. He was better than Aaron Rodgers on such passes. Seriously.

So....what changed? PERSONNEL. In 2012 they ran a TON of play action off a STRONG running game and had Randy Moss, Delanie Walker, and Vernon Davis ALL capable of stretching the defense and in particular in Moss's case force the safety to account for him (mostly on reputation alone).

In 2013, Moss and Walker were gone (as was Crab for most of the year) but Kaps average per attempt was still 7.7 because he had Vernon running deep routes.

In 2014 his average per attempt dropped all the way to 7.0 as the team had ZERO deep threats. Al the receivers were possession receivers. Vernon was a shadow of himself.

This ain't rocket science. If you don't have a deep threat you are going to throw less deep passes and complete less when you try. This is why the statement above is so ludicrous. They got a deep threat. Lets see how things look THIS year.


2) "The run game will suffer with the loss of Frank". Look, I LOVE Frank Gore. He's my favorite Niner of all time. I think he'll be a good player in Indy...but can we all stop pretending that Frank is the same guy he was 4 or 5 years ago? Baalke has know this was going for some time. They've taken RBs in 6 consecutive drafts waiting for this day.

Hunter is a good player if healthy. The sky is the limit with Hyde...he just needs a chance. I even like the prospect of a Reggie Bush for small $$$ as a compliment.

They are an unknown though. People make the mistake of thinking that unknown equals bad. It isn't. In 2004 there were a lot of people on this board who wanted the Niners to lose the so called "Reggie Bush Bowl". The reason was that we wanted the opportunity to take the guy who looked like the second coming of Gayle Sayers. Understand...Frank Gore was ALREADY ON THE ROSTER at the time having just completed his rookie year. Bush was supposedly the known and Gore the unknown.

What happened? Frank ran for 1695 yards. The 49ers won that game so fell in the draft and drafted some TE out of Maryland named Vernon Davis. Reggie Bush (while being a good player) never really panned out as expected and is looking for his 4th NFL team.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I know for sure that Hyde will be a great back...but the unknown ain't always bad. It's simply unknown...and quite frankly a bit exciting.


3) "With Patrick Willis retiring the defense is not going to be as good as it was before". This one...I can't really say and again depends o the unknown. Pat is another great player and I wanted him back in the worst way, but he's been slowed down by those feet for a few years now. I don't want to sell that the Niners are better without him because I wanted and still want him back, but the Pat we all know and love isn't the same guiy that's been on the field lately and probably not the same Pat that would have been on the field moving forward.

The is a classic perception vs. reality situation. Is Chris Borland better than Pat in their respective primes? No. Not close. Is Chris better than Pat right now? Possibly....and this from a guy that would much rather Pat held than spot for 4 or 5 more years. I was steadfast against trading or releasing him because of the leadership he brought to the team...and because Borland is still that unknown quantity I spoke about before. Can Borland continue to play like he did? Will he be able to stay healthy at that size? Will he lack of speed get exposed? Will he be able to tackle Marshawn better than he showed this year?


4) "Jed York has destroyed this team by firing Harbaugh". I think a lot of people have a really short memory. So many people seem to have been blindsided by it. The hiring of Tomsula? It was ALWAYS a possibility. York has ALWAYS spoken highly of Tomsula. Even when Harbaugh was being introduced as coach York spoke highly of Tomsula and said that he hoped Harbaugh saw in Tomsula what he did and was willing to keep him.

I really don't have the first clue if Tomsula will be a great HC. I really don't. I am NOT however ASSUMING he will fail just because his last name isn't Shanahan, Gase, or anyone else. The players know the guy. The players LOVE the guy. Dockett and Hayne signed in SF BECAUSE of the guy. I think he deserves a chance.



The bottom line to me here is that this is when we find out how good Baalke really is. All of those red-shirted players will get a chance. All of those player patiently waiting their turn will have a shot to play and see if they are as good as we hope. This roster turnover was going to happen eventually. As many of you are so fond of pointing out, I spend a lot of time on a Seattle Seahawks board. One of the biggest digs they have against the Niners is that they are old.

Well...not so much anymore. Now its time for the young guys to shine. Maybe they will and maybe they won't. Should be fun to find out.

I agree on Kaepernick.

I agree on Hyde.

Loss of P-Willy will be huge now without Vic Fangio, who proved he can maintain a Top 5 defense no matter how many players are hurt or suspended. Also Patrick Willis was a true leader.

Jed York, don't get me started. OK, I'm already started. The 49ers now officially have an Al Davis type of problem, and I say that knowing Al Davis allowed his ego to bench future HOFer Marcus Allen. It's not just that York dismantled one of the best coaching staffs in football. All the leaks backstabbing Harbaugh ultimately ruined the season and exposed a bigger problem. The leaks indicate York was either involved, complicit or he was too weak and incompetent to stop it. There is no third option. He's a spoiled POS trust fund baby who thinks he's special, and he doesn't know **** about football. He doesn't really want to win a Super Bowl. He wants to win one because of his own "genius." IMO the reason Harbaugh got sac'd is because Baalke and York didn't like all the praise and credit he was getting. It's the same reason Al Davis benched Marcus Allen. EGO. I will watch the games on TV and I will cheer for my team. But I will not spend another dime on anything related to the 49ers franchise so long as York is still CEO. I refuse to allow a single penny to leave my pocket and go into his.

Originally posted by Garcia:
1. Kap and his deep balls
------ He can throw the deep ball, but he throws it horribly. He doesn't have the touch on those deep balls like other elite QBs. He throws it on a line that can be easily batted down by the defender, see 2013 NFCCG.

2. Frank Gore
------- You've been talkin' s**t on Frank Gore for years now. Hyde is good but he will never be Frank Gore.

3. The impact of Willis
------- Anytime you lose a HOF Caliber player on defense, your D is not going to be as good. It's just simple logic. Willis is a better player than Borland and his alligator arms. There is no doubt about it. Pat even now, is a better athlete than Borland. Not to mention the loss of Pat's leadership. Borland can't make up for that.

4. Our Lovely Jed York
------- I can't criticize York for firing Harbaugh. I wasn't Harbaugh's biggest fan. He was good but flawed and he refused to correct those flaws, see clock/game management. What Jed York is, is a Liar. He lied to this fan base. Not only that, he continues to put his foot in his mouth with the 'Winning with Class BS" not one person is buying it. Jed just needs to learn when to STFU.

I agree with all of the above.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 49ers81:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
please bring some facts to why

Borland was a nice surprise last year and could well prove to be a very effective player in the box. I think the big difference between him and a younger, healthier Patrick Willis is size and speed. Willis was terrific in coverage before his feet started going and was really fast from sideline to sideline. I think Borland was exposed a bit in pass coverage last year. Unless he positions himself perfectly he simply doesn't have the athleticism to make up for his mistakes. Marshawn Lynch showed him up a bit as well, though he does that to a lot of people. There were times when Borland had him in his sights but couldn't wrap him up

He did get Lynch good one time

Borland had more INTs PD's then Willis's rookie year

Chris pretty much had a better season the PW in half the time

So just because he had more INTs than Pat did that makes him a better player than Willis ?

Originally posted by Niners816:
Didn't even read.....handle and sign up date says it all.

.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 49ers81:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
please bring some facts to why

Borland was a nice surprise last year and could well prove to be a very effective player in the box. I think the big difference between him and a younger, healthier Patrick Willis is size and speed. Willis was terrific in coverage before his feet started going and was really fast from sideline to sideline. I think Borland was exposed a bit in pass coverage last year. Unless he positions himself perfectly he simply doesn't have the athleticism to make up for his mistakes. Marshawn Lynch showed him up a bit as well, though he does that to a lot of people. There were times when Borland had him in his sights but couldn't wrap him up

He did get Lynch good one time

Borland had more INTs PD's then Willis's rookie year

Chris pretty much had a better season the PW in half the time

So just because he had more INTs than Pat did that makes him a better player than Willis ?

Look at the stats pretty much in all categories

Borland doesn't have the size and the force PW brings..but he does bring the production like PW did

Now the ? is can he keep it up

Thanks Marvin, I always enjoy your assessments for I think that they are balanced and reasonable. And I agree with your perspectives.

Why do you think that the Niners had such difficulty in the second half last year? They seemed reasonably functional in the first half but terribly sloppy and inconsistent in the second half. Was it entirely a function of Roman, lack of interest, poor coaching, too many injuries?

I personally see a lot of good things in this off-season. Since Harbaugh was not going to dispose of Roman then Baalke had to step in. I am not fond of the process and I think York and Baalke totally mishandled the situation - I don't think that they were above board and honest and direct with Harbaugh.. But it is now done and we move on. I would have like to see the defensive coaches stay for I thought that they did a good job over all. But we needed some massive help on the offensive side of the ball. Hopefully Tomsula and Christ will get the problems ironed out of the offense, maintain the defense, and get some more passion and consistency in the offense. I am happy that Kaep is getting feedback from other QBs and it will be intriguing to watch his development, especially with Torrey Smith helping out with some speed, and hopefully our Oline will stabilize this year.

Thanks again for the input.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by NeonNiner:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Boralnd was avg 15 tackles a game and even had a couple of INTs which was hard for pat to get and recovered fumbles...if he keeps playing that way..could be leaps and bounds better then PW

The level of delusion on this site is just reaching an all time high at this point.

seriously this

please bring some facts to why

Pat was DROY and first team all-pro as a rookie. Borland was neither

I really don't want to have this argument....

Borland didn't start the season because Pat was in front of him. Borland was in the DROY conversation despite not starting the year right up until he got hurt.

I'm really not trying to have the Willis/Borland conversation because I'd love to have Pat back, but peeps are seriously under valuing Borland right now and what he did last year.

I'm not saying Borland is better...but what I am saying is that its not a quantum leap down from Willis in his current state and Borland in his current state.

Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
That doesn't make him better than PW it just means he had a good year. Watch how Borland gets eaten up by olinemen, how he struggles to get sideline to sideline, how he STRUGGLED to tackle Lynch then let's re-visit this conversation.

Where do people get this? He had 11 stuffs. Dude constantly knifed through the offensive line and tackled for a loss. That was like his signature throughout the season.

Originally posted by Disp:

Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
That doesn't make him better than PW it just means he had a good year. Watch how Borland gets eaten up by olinemen, how he struggles to get sideline to sideline, how he STRUGGLED to tackle Lynch then let's re-visit this conversation.

Where do people get this? He had 11 stuffs. Dude constantly knifed through the offensive line and tackled for a loss. That was like his signature throughout the season.

these are the same guys saying we suck...when they didnt even watch any games last year

Marv...great post, man. I couldn't agree with you more...I was trying to fight off the legion of doomsdayers early on, but have pretty much given that up. Those who doubt Tomsula and/or the coaching staff he hired will simply have to see for themselves that JT's a helluva football coach and he hired a ton of experience. As you said, the roster will still be very good, thanks to Baalke's shrewd red-shirting and guys who've been patiently waiting for their time. I love the guys he's picked up so far...Dockett should make the transition from not having Justin Smith considerably less painful. That said, DL's a position Baalke will draft, more than likely early on. Borland showed us a glimpse of what he's all about...I've said it a number of times before, but it bears repeating...Chris Borland is very similar to Zach Thomas. Just about all the football pundits said the same things about Zach that they've said about Borland...too small, too slow, etc. etc. What both players have in common is they just have a nose for the football and are always making plays. Borland only stands to get better with more experience. And, Wilhoite's an excellent b/u. CB is a position Baalke will have to address...and he knows that. The cupboard's not bare of talent...but a number of the younger guys just haven't proven themselves yet.

On offense, Hyde will be the lead RB...Baalke wants a "3-headed monster" and I have no problem with that philosophy. With Hunter returning healthy, he'll be that change-of-pace guy once again. They just had a productive meeting w/Reggie Bush, and I'd be ok with them signing him. However, now that Philly's signed Murray, Ryan Matthews could be available. For me, he'd be a better option than Bush because he's bigger, younger and is also a very good receiver out of the backfield. If Baalke wants to spend the available cap $$ on other players, that's fine, because this draft is loaded with very good to excellent RB's. My personal favorite is Jay Ajayi, because he's big enough to run between the tackles, but also has that burst to get outside and is an excellent receiver.

In my eyes, Torrey Smith and Jerome Simpson are a definite upgrade to Crabtree. They can both stretch the field, which should open the middle for Boldin & Vernon. Signing them likely means Baalke can wait to draft a WR, spending earlier picks on DL, RB, TE, CB. With Iupati gone, the time for Brandon Thomas to take over LG is here. He'll have to earn it, which is how it should be, but this is a very talented OL. I think he could turn out to be an upgrade over Big Mike, but only time will tell.

Again, great rundown...good to see some reality stated over "the sky's falling" mentality that seems to be so prevalent.

Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Marv...great post, man. I couldn't agree with you more...I was trying to fight off the legion of doomsdayers early on, but have pretty much given that up. Those who doubt Tomsula and/or the coaching staff he hired will simply have to see for themselves that JT's a helluva football coach and he hired a ton of experience. As you said, the roster will still be very good, thanks to Baalke's shrewd red-shirting and guys who've been patiently waiting for their time. I love the guys he's picked up so far...Dockett should make the transition from not having Justin Smith considerably less painful. That said, DL's a position Baalke will draft, more than likely early on. Borland showed us a glimpse of what he's all about...I've said it a number of times before, but it bears repeating...Chris Borland is very similar to Zach Thomas. Just about all the football pundits said the same things about Zach that they've said about Borland...too small, too slow, etc. etc. What both players have in common is they just have a nose for the football and are always making plays. Borland only stands to get better with more experience. And, Wilhoite's an excellent b/u. CB is a position Baalke will have to address...and he knows that. The cupboard's not bare of talent...but a number of the younger guys just haven't proven themselves yet.

On offense, Hyde will be the lead RB...Baalke wants a "3-headed monster" and I have no problem with that philosophy. With Hunter returning healthy, he'll be that change-of-pace guy once again. They just had a productive meeting w/Reggie Bush, and I'd be ok with them signing him. However, now that Philly's signed Murray, Ryan Matthews could be available. For me, he'd be a better option than Bush because he's bigger, younger and is also a very good receiver out of the backfield. If Baalke wants to spend the available cap $$ on other players, that's fine, because this draft is loaded with very good to excellent RB's. My personal favorite is Jay Ajayi, because he's big enough to run between the tackles, but also has that burst to get outside and is an excellent receiver.

In my eyes, Torrey Smith and Jerome Simpson are a definite upgrade to Crabtree. They can both stretch the field, which should open the middle for Boldin & Vernon. Signing them likely means Baalke can wait to draft a WR, spending earlier picks on DL, RB, TE, CB. With Iupati gone, the time for Brandon Thomas to take over LG is here. He'll have to earn it, which is how it should be, but this is a very talented OL. I think he could turn out to be an upgrade over Big Mike, but only time will tell.

Again, great rundown...good to see some reality stated over "the sky's falling" mentality that seems to be so prevalent.

Matthews signed in Philly as well.

Agree with this thread. There's a ton of question marks surrounding this team. Fans and media have a tendency to be hyper-sensitive. But when you really step back and look at the pieces left on the roster, we still have a winning football team. All these predictions of a 4 or 5 win team is laughable. Look at those mid-2000s teams, and then look at this one. It's night and day. After free agency and the draft, we'll be well positioned to get back into the playoffs, talent-wise. After that it's up to the coaches and players to execute.

Perception is reality.....

I can't believe how quick zoners are to tear down a lifetime player after they have left the team.

It's bizarre we are even talking about Borland as an upgrade over willis. you can't be taken seriously to suggest that.