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Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
I don't see the problem. Smith used to throw lots of interceptions and fumble at bad times. Now he doesn't. Last year we started 0 - 5. Now we are 2 - 1 and leading the division with a real shot at the playoffs. What the hell is the problem?.....
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
I don't see the problem. Smith used to throw lots of interceptions and fumble at bad times. Now he doesn't. Last year we started 0 - 5. Now we are 2 - 1 and leading the division with a real shot at the playoffs. What the hell is the problem?.....
Good question SD. What IS the problem?
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
^ we need more well reasoned posts like this. You are a welcome addition, Candlestick.
x2
x3
You give me hope for the WZ, Candlestick.
Originally posted by tjd808185:Yes the number of passing QBs have increased across the entire league, but the number of actual pass attempts aren't inflated. For example:
I think this is what separates me and you. I adjust to inflation. 25-30 attempts a game 3,600 yards in today's game can still be considered as a game manager. That wasn't the case in the 80's.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Joe Montana was basically 10 top ten in yards and passing attempts every year from 1981-89. We had an extremely balanced attack by league standards back then. You say 20-30 for 230 yards is a game manager, I'd put it at a lower number.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
The best analogy I can give you is a baseball player in the roid era getting to the 400 Home run plateau. Before today's era 400 HR's would be guaranteed Hall of Fame status. What was considered as an elite power hitter before does not reign true today.
Originally posted by tjd808185:Give me the teams on the pass heavy list and I'll tell you if I classify their QBs as game managers.
Only 4 teams ran the ball more than they passed the ball last year, and most of those teams on the heavy pass list you'd still classify their quarterbacks as game managers.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
I'm going to use Joe Flacco as my example. Very good quarterback, some would call him a game manager. If you look at his stat line the last 2 years it's very close to Montana's. You think their play was identicial?
Originally posted by tjd808185:Are you asking if I classify both of them as game managers? If so, yes I do classify them both as game managers.
Would you classify those 2 in the same category?
Originally posted by tjd808185:I agree, and I understand that the standard has changed as far as production goes. I know production isn't viewed the same compared to the past due to rule changes, physical changes, etc. That goes for any sport because athletes evolve, along with other factors.
Nothing against Flacco he's solid quarterback, it's just a 3,600 yards and a 92 rating just wasn't what it was 20 years ago.
Originally posted by tjd808185:This is where you confuse me. You contradicted yourself when you agreed that game managers can be dominant players. However, you claim that game managers lead below average passing attacks. Explain to me how you can be dominant AND lead a below average passing attack at the same time.
Here's the problem I have with his argument. Montana was an elite quarterback
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Yeah he played smart but so do 90% of great quarterbacks.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Since Aaron Rodgers cut down on the sacks you can't argue about his ability to manage a game even though he chucks it 35+ a game. The same goes with Tom Brady minus what he did against Buffalo.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
When people say game manager in reality what they're saying is the qb plays his role, and just doesn't lose the game for the team.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
I wouldn't classify 03-04 Tom Brady as that, and I wouldn't classify Montana as that even though they did have a great running game and great defense and at times they played as a game manager. All quarterbacks do that. Peyton Manning played game manager during his Super Bowl victory, and a good portion of that playoffs.
Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Appreciate it guys
Yes the number of passing QBs have increased across the entire league, but the number of actual pass attempts aren't inflated. For example:
Pass Heavy QBs:
Dan Marino averaged 34 pass attempts during his era (80s-90s).
Warren Moon averaged 32 pass attempts during his era (80s-90s).
Brett Favre averaged 33 pass atempts during his era (90s-00s).
Peyton Manning averaged 34 pass attempts during his era (00s-10s).
Game Manager QBs:
Joe Montana averaged 28 pass attempts during his era (80s-90s)
Troy Aikman averaged 28 pass attempts during his era (90s-00s)
Ben Roethlisberger averaged 28 pass attempts during his era (00s-10s)
Alex Smith averaged 27 pass attempts during his era (00s-10s)
As you can see, the pass attempt averages for those QB types don't change much throughout the years. The only thing that changed is the number of pass heavy QBs. Back then, there were more game manager/balanced QBs. Today, there are more pass heavy QBs...not more pass attempts.
Exactly. We had an extremely BALANCED offense, which means Joe wasn't passing 40 times every game. Despite his limited attempts (compared to pass heavy teams), he still managed to finish in the top 10 in some passing categories. This supports my point that you didn't have to be a pass heavy team to rank in the top 10 during that era.
This analogy doesn't really apply here because I'm not talking about standards on player ability or production. I'm more concerned about the philosophy/approach going into the game. Game managers go into the game with limited passing attempts compared to gun slingers/pass heavy QBs. Game manager QBs averaged anywhere from 20-29 pass attempts per game throughout the 80s all the way to today. The pass attempt average never changed. Pass heavy QBs averaged 32+ pass attempts per game throughout the 80s all the way to today. The pass attempt average here also never changed.
The analogy you used includes a change in standards. My example shows that the number of pass attempts remained similar through different decades. The standard never changed. The idea remains: game managers pass less often compared to gun slingers.
Give me the teams on the pass heavy list and I'll tell you if I classify their QBs as game managers.
No, not at all and its not even close. (Not sure how this question has anything to do with what we're discussing)
Are you asking if I classify both of them as game managers? If so, yes I do classify them both as game managers.
Are you asking if I think they are of the same caliber? If so, absolutely not. Joe Montana is the greatest QB of all time and Flacco is a solid QB.
I agree, and I understand that the standard has changed as far as production goes. I know production isn't viewed the same compared to the past due to rule changes, physical changes, etc. That goes for any sport because athletes evolve, along with other factors.
However, I'm not comparing QB production through the different eras. I'm basing my argument mainly around pass attempt averages, which the standard hasn't changed for.
***Let me make this clear before we go any further***
Earlier I brought up Joe's 211ypg, which I now realize is a misleading stat since the standard for yardage has changed. My fault for bringing that up. That stat doesn't really apply here so just disregard that. I provided stats to support my point, but as we all know, stats can be misleading. I do feel the pass attempt stats prove my point, however they aren't what I base 100% of my opinions on.
I classify game manager QBs based on ALL (not some) of the characteristics I think make a game manager. Stats provide some support, but the qualities I listed are more telling than numbers.
This is where you confuse me. You contradicted yourself when you agreed that game managers can be dominant players. However, you claim that game managers lead below average passing attacks. Explain to me how you can be dominant AND lead a below average passing attack at the same time.
Also, you never explained how you don't think Joe is a game manager despite the fact that he fits EACH & EVERY ONE of the qualities YOU defined for a game manager.
Do 90% of great QBs also manage the clock AND take what the defense gives them AND play the field position game AND play efficiently AND do all of that with limited attempts? I'm talking ALL of those things, not SOME.
I assume you didn't watch the 1st game of the NFL season when the Packers played the Saints. If you did watch the game, I'm sure you saw Rodgers take some sacks while waiting for a big play to develop down the field. Yes, he cut down on the sacks...but he still has the tendency to wait for explosive plays instead of taking checkdowns. Not to mention that he isn't much of a ball control QB. Like Manning, Rodgers passes to score quick. I've seen him lead more quick score drives than long-sustained drives. (I'm not saying thats a bad thing...scoring points, no matter how quick, are always a good thing)
As for Brady, he's a unique QB. He's capable of passing 40 times every Sunday while still maintaining ALL game manager qualities at the same time. I feel Joe could do the same thing if he played in an offense that asked him to throw 40 times on gameday.
We've gone through this many times already. Once again, I understand what most people think about the label "game manager". I know most people consider it a bad thing to be. I, and others in this thread as well, believe it isn't necessarily a bad thing because there have been elite game managers who dominated games.
At times Trent Dilfer played as a gun slinger. All quarterbacks do that. Trent Dilfer played gun slinger several times during his career.
^Does that make Trent Dilfer a gun slinger?
Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Appreciate it guys
Yes the number of passing QBs have increased across the entire league, but the number of actual pass attempts aren't inflated. For example:
Pass Heavy QBs:
Dan Marino averaged 34 pass attempts during his era (80s-90s).
Warren Moon averaged 32 pass attempts during his era (80s-90s).
Brett Favre averaged 33 pass atempts during his era (90s-00s).
Peyton Manning averaged 34 pass attempts during his era (00s-10s).
Game Manager QBs:
Joe Montana averaged 28 pass attempts during his era (80s-90s)
Troy Aikman averaged 28 pass attempts during his era (90s-00s)
Ben Roethlisberger averaged 28 pass attempts during his era (00s-10s)
Alex Smith averaged 27 pass attempts during his era (00s-10s)
As you can see, the pass attempt averages for those QB types don't change much throughout the years. The only thing that changed is the number of pass heavy QBs. Back then, there were more game manager/balanced QBs. Today, there are more pass heavy QBs...not more pass attempts.
Exactly. We had an extremely BALANCED offense, which means Joe wasn't passing 40 times every game. Despite his limited attempts (compared to pass heavy teams), he still managed to finish in the top 10 in some passing categories. This supports my point that you didn't have to be a pass heavy team to rank in the top 10 during that era.
This analogy doesn't really apply here because I'm not talking about standards on player ability or production. I'm more concerned about the philosophy/approach going into the game. Game managers go into the game with limited passing attempts compared to gun slingers/pass heavy QBs. Game manager QBs averaged anywhere from 20-29 pass attempts per game throughout the 80s all the way to today. The pass attempt average never changed. Pass heavy QBs averaged 32+ pass attempts per game throughout the 80s all the way to today. The pass attempt average here also never changed.
The analogy you used includes a change in standards. My example shows that the number of pass attempts remained similar through different decades. The standard never changed. The idea remains: game managers pass less often compared to gun slingers.
Give me the teams on the pass heavy list and I'll tell you if I classify their QBs as game managers.
No, not at all and its not even close. (Not sure how this question has anything to do with what we're discussing)
Are you asking if I classify both of them as game managers? If so, yes I do classify them both as game managers.
Are you asking if I think they are of the same caliber? If so, absolutely not. Joe Montana is the greatest QB of all time and Flacco is a solid QB.
I agree, and I understand that the standard has changed as far as production goes. I know production isn't viewed the same compared to the past due to rule changes, physical changes, etc. That goes for any sport because athletes evolve, along with other factors.
However, I'm not comparing QB production through the different eras. I'm basing my argument mainly around pass attempt averages, which the standard hasn't changed for.
***Let me make this clear before we go any further***
Earlier I brought up Joe's 211ypg, which I now realize is a misleading stat since the standard for yardage has changed. My fault for bringing that up. That stat doesn't really apply here so just disregard that. I provided stats to support my point, but as we all know, stats can be misleading. I do feel the pass attempt stats prove my point, however they aren't what I base 100% of my opinions on.
I classify game manager QBs based on ALL (not some) of the characteristics I think make a game manager. Stats provide some support, but the qualities I listed are more telling than numbers.
This is where you confuse me. You contradicted yourself when you agreed that game managers can be dominant players. However, you claim that game managers lead below average passing attacks. Explain to me how you can be dominant AND lead a below average passing attack at the same time.
Also, you never explained how you don't think Joe is a game manager despite the fact that he fits EACH & EVERY ONE of the qualities YOU defined for a game manager.
Do 90% of great QBs also manage the clock AND take what the defense gives them AND play the field position game AND play efficiently AND do all of that with limited attempts? I'm talking ALL of those things, not SOME.
I assume you didn't watch the 1st game of the NFL season when the Packers played the Saints. If you did watch the game, I'm sure you saw Rodgers take some sacks while waiting for a big play to develop down the field. Yes, he cut down on the sacks...but he still has the tendency to wait for explosive plays instead of taking checkdowns. Not to mention that he isn't much of a ball control QB. Like Manning, Rodgers passes to score quick. I've seen him lead more quick score drives than long-sustained drives. (I'm not saying thats a bad thing...scoring points, no matter how quick, are always a good thing)
As for Brady, he's a unique QB. He's capable of passing 40 times every Sunday while still maintaining ALL game manager qualities at the same time. I feel Joe could do the same thing if he played in an offense that asked him to throw 40 times on gameday.
We've gone through this many times already. Once again, I understand what most people think about the label "game manager". I know most people consider it a bad thing to be. I, and others in this thread as well, believe it isn't necessarily a bad thing because there have been elite game managers who dominated games.
At times Trent Dilfer played as a gun slinger. All quarterbacks do that. Trent Dilfer played gun slinger several times during his career.
^Does that make Trent Dilfer a gun slinger?
Originally posted by tjd808185:The number of pass attempts has increased dramatically. You're comparing the extremes of the 80's to the extremes today. You're right there was teams back in the 80's that passed the ball on every down, but in today's NFL every single team including teams like us who pass the ball 45% of plays. You want of examples of pass happy with game managing quarterbacks try us, Seattle,
There's alot of quarterbacks that you'd probally classify as game managers who took alot sacks. For instance Ben Roethlisburger. Green
Green Bay finished 7th in time of possession last year without any run game whatsoever. You might want to rethink that position about his drives not controlling the clock. Not too mention I can list a quarterback that you listed as a game manager that take sacks left and right too. Ben Roethlisburger ring a bell. Apparently you've never watched him play. Big Ben's style is too look for big plays down the field too, and he takes sacks because of it.
Don't confuse futility with balance. With the exception of 4 teams the entire passes the ball more than they throw it. Last year our game managers passed the ball 56% of the time. You got guys like Sam Bradford who had 500+ attempts and is still be asked to manage games. The number of pass attempts have not stayed the same. You're taking the extremes of the 80's and applying that as the standard of a gunslinger. Me personally I take the averages of the league and apply it. I would not call those quarterbacks that failed to live up to the extremes game managers.
I don't have time to address alot of your points and we're starting to go in circles now. Here's what separates me from you. I do not classify every single quarterback that operated under a balanced attack and a good defense as a game manager. Game manager implies limited passing attack, rely on everything else to win the game. You can't say that about us. We weren't just opportunistic. Joe Montana exploited defenses left and right. When I said game managers can be dominant that was the sarcastic remark I was referring too. I never tried to say that. I'd classify Tom Brady 01 as a game manager, but 03 and 04 I would not classify him as a game manager. Right now with the exception of that Buffalo game, his play really describes your description of a game manager even though they pass the ball 30+ times.
I don't even know why I'm wasting so much time arguing this, because here's the end game. You're comparing a guy who led one of the greatest offenses in football history to a guy the running worse offense in football. You can say being called game manager is not ball all you want, but it's apples and oranges fella. The standard of quarterback play required to win in this league is increasing by the day. There's like 8 quarterbacks right now with a 100+ rating. If you think we're going to beat those teams with 120 yards passing I don't what to say to you. No Alex hate intended, we got to open things up if we're going to take that next step. Let's say you're right and Joe Montana was a game manager. Alex Smith doesn't come close to that category. We'd be jumping for joy if he fell under the Joe Flacco category. I think he's played adequate football right now, between the 16-22 range so I'm not trying to hate on him I'm just making sure that I'm adding perspective to your extreme comparision.
Originally posted by Shaj:
The question is, has Smith been asked to be a Game Manager because that is our offensive strategy, or because the coaching staff doesn't think he can do any better than that. I think the latter.
Nobody in their right mind would ask Brees, Manning, Rivers, or Rodgers to be a game manager because it would be a monstrous under-utilization of their skills. The only people who get asked to be game managers are wildly inconsistent QBs that are prone to losing the game for their team, and lack the ability to put their team on their back and win the game. That explains why Alex has been asked to be a game manager time and time again. The best he can do is to basically try not to contribute to a loss and get out of the way while the ST and D tries to secure the game.
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
I don't see the problem. Smith used to throw lots of interceptions and fumble at bad times. Now he doesn't. Last year we started 0 - 5. Now we are 2 - 1 and leading the division with a real shot at the playoffs. What the hell is the problem?.....
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
f course not
they have all been learning the same system for multiple years
i posted this many many times but it seems no one sees it
harbaugh and roman said before season that they will start of slow but open up the playbook more week by week
week 1: 20 attempts 124 uards
week 2: 24 attempts174 yards
week 3: 30 attempts 201 yards( and may i add many drops)
he has easily increaced his attempts and yards each week
harbaugh is not restricting smith they are slowly opening him up
Dalton had me believing he may be able to succeed as a rookie QB, he did a lot to make those thoughts seem foolish in Week 3. He turned in a poor performance, while his much-maligned opposite number, Alex Smith, excelled despite very little help from his offensive colleagues. Smith looked pretty decent. He wasn't helped by some atrocious protection that saw him pressured on 45.7% of his dropbacks, but even then he avoided turning the ball over, and completed a healthy 54.5% of passes when pressured. The only shame for him is a beautiful touchdown throw was called back for Crabtree controversially being ruled to have stepped out of bounds. No QB had a higher PFF Accuracy Percentage (one of our signature stats) than Alex Smith in week three. Take away his throwaway and the four drops his receiver made and he would have completed 82.8% of passes.
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:Originally posted by ObePwnD:Originally posted by SanDiego49er:I don't see the problem. Smith used to throw lots of interceptions and fumble at bad times. Now he doesn't. Last year we started 0 - 5. Now we are 2 - 1 and leading the division with a real shot at the playoffs. What the hell is the problem?.....
Good question SD. What IS the problem?
I can't imagine what these idiots would be saying if we were losing....
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
You guys have both made good points, now it is just about how we define the term game manager, which is subjective. Good posts both of you.
Originally posted by 49erfeeeever808:
Definition A: "Here's the ball just don't f*ck up. If you get scared check down, and i don't wanna see any deep balls either."
Definition B: "Here's the ball. Do what it takes to win. If the home run is there go for it, but just don't get too crazy out there. If you don't like what you see the check down is always there."
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Originally posted by 49erfeeeever808:
Definition A: "Here's the ball just don't f*ck up. If you get scared check down, and i don't wanna see any deep balls either."
Definition B: "Here's the ball. Do what it takes to win. If the home run is there go for it, but just don't get too crazy out there. If you don't like what you see the check down is always there."
Definition C: Harbaugh: 'No sack, no INT, no fumble. The deep ball, if it's there take it. But don't stay on it too long. The offensive line has problems. Check down or throw it away all together. We can come back to it the next play. Game situation changes. We will manage it as we go. Try not to get hurt out there. I don't want to bring the Kap out there right now.'
