Niners Offense Still Not Changed Enough

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
They should insert Heitman at right guard when comes back from the injuries. With Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitman, Davis, this I think will be a very good line. Gives Smith a tic toc more to get a good look down field.

Honestly, I dont think it would matter in the passing game. Pressured or not, Smith gets rid of the ball way too soon. I think he has mental trama from the first few years of playing being a horrible line.

It's not trauma. He is a presnap QB who rarely makes postsnap reads. So, if his presnap read isn't there, it seems as if he bails on the play and heads to the checkdown or runs.

I thought MJ did ok, for the most part the offense moved the ball, only one 3 and out

Still way too many Gore runs between the tackles, need to get him outside the tackles more, especially considering his only big run on the day was to the outside.

Otherwise the only play call I had a real problem with was the screen to Byham right after Walker got hurt, shouldn't be running any YAC plays for him

As for Westbrook, it's possible Jimmy simply had very few plays designed for him, and it's not like MJ had that much time to work with this week either, but if any time is the right time to use Westbrook, it will be this week against his former team so we'll see what happens.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
They should insert Heitman at right guard when comes back from the injuries. With Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitman, Davis, this I think will be a very good line. Gives Smith a tic toc more to get a good look down field.

Honestly, I dont think it would matter in the passing game. Pressured or not, Smith gets rid of the ball way too soon. I think he has mental trama from the first few years of playing being a horrible line.

In fairness, let's remember that Smith spent all the OTAs and TC with Jimmy Raye standing behind him holding a stopwatch that went off at three seconds. If the ball wasn't gone in three seconds from the snap of the ball, it was considered a sack. Smith is now executing what the coaches demanded he learn in TC.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by djfullshred:
Things will not change until they get a better QB. That position holds them back more than anything else right now.

I wish it were that simple. Yes, Smith is a factor but he is only one in a list that is still too long.

Lack of game-breaking WR.

Lack of comprehensive offensive scheme.

Inexperience in the OL.

Lack of ability of receivers to read defenses.

Playbook that is far too limited.

ETC.

dj, you are reaching here. Crabtree has shown he can "make a play" after the catch. He also is known to be explosive out of his breaks and creating separation. Morgan can go over the top and so can Vernon. Delanie has proven to be a mismatch with just about anyone.

The difference is that these guys are all expected to be a yard open to get the ball and they still don't get it because the throw has already been predetermined by Smith.

I'm not reaching on Crabtree until he starts actually making plays. He HASN'T been explosive out of his breaks, he HASN'T created separation on a consistent basis. Morgan HASN'T shown he can go up for a ball in league games. Yes, Walker and Davis are threats...for a TE but they can be taken out of the game if there is not a WR that demands coverage by the best cover safety.

Smith has made throws into tight coverage but Singletary has made it clear he doesn't want him "taking any chances." With those challenges hanging over his head, I don't think it is reasonable to assume he will achieve the level of passing efficiency this team needs.

FWIW, in the second half of yesterday's game, I told my wife that it is clear that Alex Smith is not the long-term answer...at least with the supporting team and coaching philosophy that exists here now.

I wish I could somehow convey to some posters how critically important it is to have the right components around a QB in order for them to develop and play well. Coaching is all the key and this team is still below college level in offensive scheme.

Every report on Crabtree from last year and TC has been how well he makes his breaks so I don't know where you base this from. Just watching his ability after the catch and how swift he is in his cuts is evidence right there that he is explosive.

Smith has made very few throws in tight coverage. You are still ignoring the fact that most of his completions appear to be to guys who are a yard at the minimum open whereas most throws by other QBs are to receivers who are barely open. The tight throws are far and rare from one to the next.

You talk about right components in 6 years? Every commentator and analysis person has stated the amount of talent this team has now.

1. OL: check

Not even close. The rookies are still making TONS of mistakes. Baas is not the bulldozer all hoped he would be at center. Either Baas makes a lot of mistakes in adjusments or the other OL are just not hearing him because there are far too many blown assignments. Rachal, a #2 pick, has now been benched for ineffective play.

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2. WR: best WR out of the 2009 draft who snatches a ball very well and makes plays after the catch: Check

I've stated my case on him very well in the Crabtree thread.

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3. WR who gets the attention of 2 players on defense: Vernon Davis: check

He draws a linebacker and a good cover safety and there is still plenty left to cover the other two receivers.

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4. RB who requires an entire defense's attention: check

It doesn't take an entire defense to cover the space between the tackles - an offensive play calling issue.

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5. Mismatch FB/TE/WR: check

The only time a mismatch occurs is when Walker is in the game and his PT has been so erratic it is frustrating - another coaching/game plan issue.

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Don't know what else you want? Wanting two top 10 receivers is asking for a lot with little production from our QB thus far.

As I've said in other threads, many here are GROSSLY overestimating the ability of the wide receiving corp. Everyone wants to compare Smith to Rodgers - so here is my challenge to all of those making that comparison: compare the positions, player by player, and make your case for ANY 49er, including Vernon Davis, to be starting over ANY of the GB receivers in the same position.

And yes, having written that, I know everyone will say it is just about the QB, and we will be back at the starting point. For those that want to say that, go watch the GB receivers BEFORE Rodgers releases the ball and get back to me on what you have learned.

Brotha your preaching to the wrong guy, lol. You know that regardless of what info you give, it will make no difference. I said specifically that when Smith plays bad he does, but its just funny how week in and week out tons of Qb's play just as good or better, and just as bad or worse than Smith, but still pull out the win.

Now in TWO GAMES, it's the Defense that cost us the game. Which two some may say, well

1. NO---- Smith put the team on his back and got us not only the TD, but the 2pt conversion. The D lost it for us in the final minute, when they couldnt stop Brees. (Then some had the nerve to say Alex has never put the team on his back, and led to victory.) In my eyes, he did just that, the D failed to make the stop and take it to OT, not Smith.

2. Falcons game--- Come on fellas there are many games where the score is low, and sometimes that's because of Good defense. This was a good game, and we didnt get blown the f**k out. Smith threw 2 int's, but did at least score a TD. And we had at least 9:24 left in the 3rd, with the entire 4th quarter left. Thats waaay more than enough time to fix things. Then just when we think we are gonna win the close one by a point, (which many good teams do as well). What happens, the D lets Ryan convert on 3 separate third and longs, continuously. So u tell me, was letting the Falcons move down the field Smith's fault.

Overall, he's just as much to blame, as the entire team, but the funny thing is, if you notice, there hasnt been one week, that we have capitalized on the week before. Each week we get a new TEAM, that shows up. And not just the QB, but RB, WR, Oline, and entire D. Once again whats good in stopping the run and the pass at times, if in those crucial moments you cant get a stop. And people kill me with the getting tired part. Anyone ever hear Ray Lewis and the RAvens, or Rivas and the Jets say damn our QB only has one TD, lets just f**k it cuz we are tired. Hell no, they rise to the occasion and may give up one big play, but we let them convert on 3rd and longs throughout the entire game. Im talkin bout even worse than the 3rd, and longs we got last year.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
They should insert Heitman at right guard when comes back from the injuries. With Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitman, Davis, this I think will be a very good line. Gives Smith a tic toc more to get a good look down field.

Honestly, I dont think it would matter in the passing game. Pressured or not, Smith gets rid of the ball way too soon. I think he has mental trama from the first few years of playing being a horrible line.

In fairness, let's remember that Smith spent all the OTAs and TC with Jimmy Raye standing behind him holding a stopwatch that went off at three seconds. If the ball wasn't gone in three seconds from the snap of the ball, it was considered a sack. Smith is now executing what the coaches demanded he learn in TC.

oh god I forgot about that

I tend to agree about that, Alex plays the way Nolan/Sing have wanted him to play, which is ultra-conservative

seems like the classic square peg round hole situation, where they took a spread QB and tried to make him into the checkdown master and ended up screwing him up completely

Originally posted by znk916:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
They should insert Heitman at right guard when comes back from the injuries. With Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitman, Davis, this I think will be a very good line. Gives Smith a tic toc more to get a good look down field.

Honestly, I dont think it would matter in the passing game. Pressured or not, Smith gets rid of the ball way too soon. I think he has mental trama from the first few years of playing being a horrible line.

In fairness, let's remember that Smith spent all the OTAs and TC with Jimmy Raye standing behind him holding a stopwatch that went off at three seconds. If the ball wasn't gone in three seconds from the snap of the ball, it was considered a sack. Smith is now executing what the coaches demanded he learn in TC.

oh god I forgot about that

I tend to agree about that, Alex plays the way Nolan/Sing have wanted him to play, which is ultra-conservative

seems like the classic square peg round hole situation, where they took a spread QB and tried to make him into the checkdown master and ended up screwing him up completely

They didn't try to make him a checkdown master, they actually succeeded. So we can go ahead and let Ginn ride the bench cause his go routes will all be for naught...

Originally posted by rawdel:

Originally posted by znk916:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
They should insert Heitman at right guard when comes back from the injuries. With Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitman, Davis, this I think will be a very good line. Gives Smith a tic toc more to get a good look down field.

Honestly, I dont think it would matter in the passing game. Pressured or not, Smith gets rid of the ball way too soon. I think he has mental trama from the first few years of playing being a horrible line.

In fairness, let's remember that Smith spent all the OTAs and TC with Jimmy Raye standing behind him holding a stopwatch that went off at three seconds. If the ball wasn't gone in three seconds from the snap of the ball, it was considered a sack. Smith is now executing what the coaches demanded he learn in TC.

oh god I forgot about that

I tend to agree about that, Alex plays the way Nolan/Sing have wanted him to play, which is ultra-conservative

seems like the classic square peg round hole situation, where they took a spread QB and tried to make him into the checkdown master and ended up screwing him up completely

They didn't try to make him a checkdown master, they actually succeeded. So we can go ahead and let Ginn ride the bench cause his go routes will all be for naught...

no they failed because his accuracy is worst on short passes

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by djfullshred:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by djfullshred:
Things will not change until they get a better QB. That position holds them back more than anything else right now.

I wish it were that simple. Yes, Smith is a factor but he is only one in a list that is still too long.

Lack of game-breaking WR.

Lack of comprehensive offensive scheme.

Inexperience in the OL.

Lack of ability of receivers to read defenses.

Playbook that is far too limited.

ETC.

Regardless how long the list of things to work on is, a professional goes head first into addressing the toughest issues, and works his way down the list from there. I am not saying it is a simple thing too put a great NFL offense together....but even us fans at home know that a team without a very good QB has no foundation to build on. All the other skill players can't improve if the QB is not in command of the offense, running it without too many mistakes. The playbook & opportunities start opening up for all the other players when the QB is at the top of his game.

That is true but when the QB has to be near perfect in order to, then the fans at home will be disappointed. When the QB has to be near perfect to get the ball into the hands of the receivers, or anticipate which way his inexperienced receiver will read and adjust to the defense, which receiver will get that tiny bit of separation, or which OL will fail to make the correct block, or when they QB has to make the most vanilla of offensive schemes work against a sophisticated, aggressive defense, and totally make up for a defense that is playing poorly most of the time, then we are putting too much of the blame on the one guy and not enough on the other areas.

Near perfect is not necessary. Someone with a little better accuracy, who can hit players in stride would result in more big plays.

Personally, I don't at all get any arguments for Smith at this point. It is a diversion from work to talk about this today, but I might as well be talking to aliens speaking another language. I don't get why this team wasn't trying aggressively to upgrade the QB situation at the time they restructured Smith's contract a few years ago. Maybe they were feeling too butthurt about all the money they previously payed him, and decided to keep throwing good money after bad, with the hopes they would be vindicated one day.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
They should insert Heitman at right guard when comes back from the injuries. With Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitman, Davis, this I think will be a very good line. Gives Smith a tic toc more to get a good look down field.

Honestly, I dont think it would matter in the passing game. Pressured or not, Smith gets rid of the ball way too soon. I think he has mental trama from the first few years of playing being a horrible line.

In fairness, let's remember that Smith spent all the OTAs and TC with Jimmy Raye standing behind him holding a stopwatch that went off at three seconds. If the ball wasn't gone in three seconds from the snap of the ball, it was considered a sack. Smith is now executing what the coaches demanded he learn in TC.

Thats a good point. But let me ask you straight up. What is your argument regarding Smith? Are you saying he is a good QB with the potential to be great? If not great, how hard do you think it would be to replace his level of play considering he is an FA next year? What has he shown you that makes you think he is worth holding on to?

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Niners' fans celebrated the dumping of Jimmy Raye last week, but the question I ask is: Was there that much of a difference in Mike Johnson?

Couple notes from yesterday:

1. The Niners offense scored on the opening drive, but then was held scoreless the rest of the game. It seemed like the Falcons adjusted to the Niners' scheme, and the team was not creative enough to take advantage of the Falcons defense.

2. Somebody tell me if I am wrong, but I rarely saw 3 and 4 WR sets. We are still putting players like Byham in the game when we could add Zeigler as a 3rd WR.

3. Any reverses yesterday, misdirections? Just not seeing much movement.

4. Vernon Davis is an All-Pro TE, and yet we rarely throw to him.

5. It appears the only route that Smith and Crabtree connect on is a 15 yard hook pattern.

6. Could somebody force Gore off the field at some point, and put in another RB to spell him? We have Westbrook and we still don't put him in.

7. Smith thrives in a no-huddle, spread offense. Why not get the offense jumpstarted by doing this in at least one series?

I've got a feeling the Eagles are going to score points this week, so we better get on the scoreboard early and often. I hope this week allows some more creative planning and execution. The system is broken, so why stick with the same game plan.

Here's the real problem...the offense is just not disciplined and consistent enough to churn out the 10-15 play drives Singletary wants. That shouldn't come as a great surprise, most NFL offenses are not able to do that consistently. Instead, they try to get explosive plays and/or chunks of yardage at a time. There's just too many things that can go wrong as a drive requires more plays to continue. A receiver could run the wrong route or drop/tip a pass; the OL can blow a protection or get a holding call; the QB can take a sack, make a bad read and/or throw or have a pass tipped at the LOS; and a RB can miss a hole, fumble or miss a blitz pick-up.

The few times the 49er offense has looked good this year they've been able to get chunks of yardage at a time. Against the Saints, there was the 4 play drive that included the pass and run to Crabtree and the long pass to V. Davis. Against the Falcons, they were able to get chunks of yardage on the first drive.

By contrast, even the moderately successful long drives ultimately breakdown and leave the 49ers vulnerable. The last drive against the Falcons is a perfect example. Yes, its good that they were able to work the ball out from deep in their own territory and eat up the clock but eventually they couldn't sustain it, the drive stalled and they had to punt.

It is fine to want to run Gore but big plays still need to come out of the passing game. That's what is missing and wrong with the 49ers offense.

Originally posted by djfullshred:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by djfullshred:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by djfullshred:
Things will not change until they get a better QB. That position holds them back more than anything else right now.

I wish it were that simple. Yes, Smith is a factor but he is only one in a list that is still too long.

Lack of game-breaking WR.

Lack of comprehensive offensive scheme.

Inexperience in the OL.

Lack of ability of receivers to read defenses.

Playbook that is far too limited.

ETC.

Regardless how long the list of things to work on is, a professional goes head first into addressing the toughest issues, and works his way down the list from there. I am not saying it is a simple thing too put a great NFL offense together....but even us fans at home know that a team without a very good QB has no foundation to build on. All the other skill players can't improve if the QB is not in command of the offense, running it without too many mistakes. The playbook & opportunities start opening up for all the other players when the QB is at the top of his game.

That is true but when the QB has to be near perfect in order to, then the fans at home will be disappointed. When the QB has to be near perfect to get the ball into the hands of the receivers, or anticipate which way his inexperienced receiver will read and adjust to the defense, which receiver will get that tiny bit of separation, or which OL will fail to make the correct block, or when they QB has to make the most vanilla of offensive schemes work against a sophisticated, aggressive defense, and totally make up for a defense that is playing poorly most of the time, then we are putting too much of the blame on the one guy and not enough on the other areas.

Near perfect is not necessary. Someone with a little better accuracy, who can hit players in stride would result in more big plays.

Personally, I don't at all get any arguments for Smith at this point. It is a diversion from work to talk about this today, but I might as well be talking to aliens speaking another language. I don't get why this team wasn't trying aggressively to upgrade the QB situation at the time they restructured Smith's contract a few years ago. Maybe they were feeling too butthurt about all the money they previously payed him, and decided to keep throwing good money after bad, with the hopes they would be vindicated one day.

I think the answer to your question about trying to get an upgrade comes down to the fact that Smith was "damaged goods." He wasn't worth anything to anybody else until he proved himself healthy. In the meantime, they are still trying to stock the team with quality players at other areas and giving up a draft choice or two, or a good player and a draft pick for an chance at another QB was viewed as a very expensive solution that would slow the overall team development. Consequently, they rolled the dice in hope Smith would prove to be either the answer at QB, or good enough to get something in trade.

Right now, I don't think they get anything for him. If I am Alex Smith, I want out of this circus tent now. No more Mike Singletary offense, no more divas shooting their mouth off to the press, no more of any of that. I want to go sit behind a veteran QB where I will have a chance to play with a decent line and in a system that utilizes my best skills...and that is not SF.

Unfortunately, that leaves SF with having only the choice of spending a first round draft choice on another QB instead of a badly needed pass rusher, or a speedy CB or a speedy wide receiver. IOW, it moves three other high priority needs down one full level. Too bad.

I guess my basic thought on Smith is this. He is at best average. I dont think it would be hard to get a NFL QB to play at the level he is currently playing. It really is that simple. Smith is not the only problem, but I believe (Unlike Singletary) QB is the single most important position on the field. We should look to upgrade next year and sooner if we are completly eliminated from the playoffs early.

Originally posted by Joecool:
Honestly, after Smith threw the first INT, did you guys really have much confidence in our passing game and throwing out 3 or 4 wide?

Everyone, including MadDog want to ignore the real problem with our passing game: an inaccurate QB who can't throw to NFL open WR's.

After that 2nd INT, I personally did not want the 49ers to throw another pass to a WR.

this

The offense the team is running reminds me of what the team was running with S. Hill last year. Are they waiting till the season is lost to finally open up the offense like last year?

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
They should insert Heitman at right guard when comes back from the injuries. With Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitman, Davis, this I think will be a very good line. Gives Smith a tic toc more to get a good look down field.

Honestly, I dont think it would matter in the passing game. Pressured or not, Smith gets rid of the ball way too soon. I think he has mental trama from the first few years of playing being a horrible line.

In fairness, let's remember that Smith spent all the OTAs and TC with Jimmy Raye standing behind him holding a stopwatch that went off at three seconds. If the ball wasn't gone in three seconds from the snap of the ball, it was considered a sack. Smith is now executing what the coaches demanded he learn in TC.

Thats a good point. But let me ask you straight up. What is your argument regarding Smith? Are you saying he is a good QB with the potential to be great? If not great, how hard do you think it would be to replace his level of play considering he is an FA next year? What has he shown you that makes you think he is worth holding on to?

To be completely honest, I don't know what Smith's potential may be. What I do know is that it is VERY unlikely it will be realized in SF. What I see happening is he plays out the rest of the year. The team finishes 7-9. Mike Singletary is fired at the end of the season and Jed tries to hire a HC with a solid offensive pedigree that recognizes this is now a passing league. (I like Singletary as a person and believe he could be a good HC in this league but he had far too little experience to deal with the challenge. Jed made a very bad decision to elevate him prematurely.) Alex Smith moves to a team with a solid OC who understands the NFL in 2010 where he can sit behind a veteran and wait for his chance to start.

To try to answer your question, in looking around the league, I see about 12-15 starting QBs who play at roughly the same level Alex Smith has played at so far this year. Therefore, given how many obstacles he has faced, I believe Smith is capable of playing at about the #15-18 level QB in the league, maybe a bit higher, if he is put in a more settled situation with a coach that understands offense.

Right now, I just don't see any scenario short of a Mike Johnson complete turn around of this offensive scheme, that has Alex Smith in it next year. If I'm Alex Smith, as soon as the final whistle blows on this season, I am out of San Francisco for good. I want no more of this circus.