Niners Offense Still Not Changed Enough

Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Vincent Jackson is dangling there on the market and could be a bargain if this continues much longer. The Niners would need to sacrifice a probable second rounder to secure him, but he would be an upgrade over Josh Morgan, who is a nice player, but not much of a difference maker.

A WR corp of Jackson as the number one, Crabtree as the number two, Ginn and Morgan fighting for the third and fourth spots, Zeigler as the number five, and Williams being our special team return man, and insurance, is a nice looking group, to go along with Gore and Westbrook, and Davis and Walker.

Open this field up, put four WR's on the field and let her rip.

I heard AJ Smith wanted a second this year and a third the next

and had no takers. At some point he will have to lower his demand...unless he thinks Jackson will cave a la Crabtree.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by excelsior:
dj43, a bright guy, called to our attention how MINN found that they needed a deep threat because the lack therof was hurting their offense. Look at what effect this failure has on a QB, no matter how great:

Favre QB rating 60.4 2 TD, 6 INT
A. Smith QB rating 66.1 3 TD, 7 INT

These stats suggest that Alex's struggles are somewhat tied to our shortcomings in our receiver corps.

Thanks.

WOW. That stat comparison is startling. I didn't take the time to do that research but it certainly is compelling.

And the counterexample; Arizona Cardinals. With Warner and without Warner.

You guys actually feel MINN has a poor receiving corp prior to acquiring Randy Moss? I mean, it must have nothing to do with a QB who did zero physical activity during the offseason...

and lacking Boldin...

Boldin wasn't a deep threat. They have a deep threat and a valid #2 receiver in Breaston (14 catches).

How about Phillip Rivers not missing Jackson?

You just won't see that WR's don't make the QB as much as the QB makes the offense. Acquiring Jackson is NOT going to solve our problems. Improved blocking from last year from the bottom in the league to above average (minus one 5-sack game) is NOT improving this offense.

Having a QB who can throw to an NFL by definition open receiver is what will improve this offense.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Leathaface:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Vincent Jackson is dangling there on the market and could be a bargain if this continues much longer. The Niners would need to sacrifice a probable second rounder to secure him, but he would be an upgrade over Josh Morgan, who is a nice player, but not much of a difference maker.

A WR corp of Jackson as the number one, Crabtree as the number two, Ginn and Morgan fighting for the third and fourth spots, Zeigler as the number five, and Williams being our special team return man, and insurance, is a nice looking group, to go along with Gore and Westbrook, and Davis and Walker.

Open this field up, put four WR's on the field and let her rip.

Sure that would be a nice lineup at WR...but we don't have a QB.

It'd be funny if we DID make that deal and then watch it be followed by another week of Alex's ineptitude. I couldn't imagine the Alexcuses we'd get then.

They would say that Jackson wasn't actually that good because he didn't help out the SD offense all that much.


Note: Phillip Rivers is playing just as good without Vincent Jackson.

dj, there's another example. I can dig up more if you like. I can dig up even more examples of QB's improving teams with the same WR's as the previous QB.

Actually, Rivers is close to last year but not quite as good.

Overall rating 102 versus 104 in 2009 - not quite as good

TD % 6.4 versus 5.8 - slightly better

yards/att - 9.4 versus 8.8 - slightly better

longest completion 59 versus 81 all last year - longest was to...jackson

Interceptions 4 so far 9 in 09 he is on pace for nearly double the number of Int

he is also throwing the ball 5+ times more/game this year.

So no, it isn't a big difference but he still has Gates, who is having a big year, Floyd has come into his own, and Naanee is playing very well.

Of course all that is only because Rivers is so much better than Favre that he could throw TDs to a dead chicken.

7. Smith thrives in a no-huddle, spread offense. Why not get the offense jumpstarted by doing this in at least one series?


BINGO.. the answer to all our problems.

Smith ONLY functions when he doesn't THINK. He's so smart, that he out-thinks himself.

Mike Johnson :
"You have to have chunk plays in every game," Johnson said today. "And there's a certain number that we look for throughout the game. Because it's hard in NFL games to go 12-play drives all the time without making a mistake. There will be certain things that we have designed to get chunks because it's hard to go 12 plays on an NFL drive consistently."

Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2010/10/johnson-niners.html#ixzz11hnrrrQ1

Would that statement qualify as an "Alexcuse" for his turnovers!?

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Leathaface:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Vincent Jackson is dangling there on the market and could be a bargain if this continues much longer. The Niners would need to sacrifice a probable second rounder to secure him, but he would be an upgrade over Josh Morgan, who is a nice player, but not much of a difference maker.

A WR corp of Jackson as the number one, Crabtree as the number two, Ginn and Morgan fighting for the third and fourth spots, Zeigler as the number five, and Williams being our special team return man, and insurance, is a nice looking group, to go along with Gore and Westbrook, and Davis and Walker.

Open this field up, put four WR's on the field and let her rip.

Sure that would be a nice lineup at WR...but we don't have a QB.

It'd be funny if we DID make that deal and then watch it be followed by another week of Alex's ineptitude. I couldn't imagine the Alexcuses we'd get then.

They would say that Jackson wasn't actually that good because he didn't help out the SD offense all that much.


Note: Phillip Rivers is playing just as good without Vincent Jackson.

dj, there's another example. I can dig up more if you like. I can dig up even more examples of QB's improving teams with the same WR's as the previous QB.

Actually, Rivers is close to last year but not quite as good.

Overall rating 102 versus 104 in 2009 - not quite as good

TD % 6.4 versus 5.8 - slightly better

yards/att - 9.4 versus 8.8 - slightly better

longest completion 59 versus 81 all last year - longest was to...jackson

Interceptions 4 so far 9 in 09 he is on pace for nearly double the number of Int

he is also throwing the ball 5+ times more/game this year.

So no, it isn't a big difference but he still has Gates, who is having a big year, Floyd has come into his own, and Naanee is playing very well.

Of course all that is only because Rivers is so much better than Favre that he could throw TDs to a dead chicken.

But by your theory, he shouldn't be playing this good without Jackson, a #1 WR. You use Gates as your argument for him playing well, but when I used Vernon as a point that Smith has good receivers, you said he's a TE and they don't have as much effect as a #1 deep threat WR.

So if Jackson didn't affect Rivers numbers very much, how much do you actually think a "#1" deep threat will affect Alex Smith? The possibilities must be endless with one WR.

Also, look at the Falcons. Vick had the same receivers Ryan had yet Ryan is getting them the ball.

Originally posted by verb1der:
Mike Johnson :
"You have to have chunk plays in every game," Johnson said today. "And there's a certain number that we look for throughout the game. Because it's hard in NFL games to go 12-play drives all the time without making a mistake. There will be certain things that we have designed to get chunks because it's hard to go 12 plays on an NFL drive consistently."

Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2010/10/johnson-niners.html#ixzz11hnrrrQ1

Would that statement qualify as an "Alexcuse" for his turnovers!?

No because Alex missed two or three deep balls.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by excelsior:
dj43, a bright guy, called to our attention how MINN found that they needed a deep threat because the lack therof was hurting their offense. Look at what effect this failure has on a QB, no matter how great:

Favre QB rating 60.4 2 TD, 6 INT
A. Smith QB rating 66.1 3 TD, 7 INT

These stats suggest that Alex's struggles are somewhat tied to our shortcomings in our receiver corps.

Thanks.

WOW. That stat comparison is startling. I didn't take the time to do that research but it certainly is compelling.

And the counterexample; Arizona Cardinals. With Warner and without Warner.

You guys actually feel MINN has a poor receiving corp prior to acquiring Randy Moss? I mean, it must have nothing to do with a QB who did zero physical activity during the offseason...

and lacking Boldin...

Boldin wasn't a deep threat. They have a deep threat and a valid #2 receiver in Breaston (14 catches).

How about Phillip Rivers not missing Jackson?

You just won't see that WR's don't make the QB as much as the QB makes the offense. Acquiring Jackson is NOT going to solve our problems. Improved blocking from last year from the bottom in the league to above average (minus one 5-sack game) is NOT improving this offense.

Having a QB who can throw to an NFL by definition open receiver is what will improve this offense.

I NEVER said the WRs were more important than the QB. You keep harping on that and I keep telling you they are related. So is the performance of the OL. So is the coaching philosophy. All of that is part of what will have to change, in addition to the level of QB play, before this team has a quality offense.

Put Chad Henne on this team, David Garrard, Bruce Gradkowski, Shaun Hill, Matt Cassel or any of that group on this team and the offense would be no better. It would take a Top 10 QB like a Schaub or Rivers to make this group of receivers half way respectable...and that ain't gonna happen.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by excelsior:
dj43, a bright guy, called to our attention how MINN found that they needed a deep threat because the lack therof was hurting their offense. Look at what effect this failure has on a QB, no matter how great:

Favre QB rating 60.4 2 TD, 6 INT
A. Smith QB rating 66.1 3 TD, 7 INT

These stats suggest that Alex's struggles are somewhat tied to our shortcomings in our receiver corps.

Thanks.

WOW. That stat comparison is startling. I didn't take the time to do that research but it certainly is compelling.

And the counterexample; Arizona Cardinals. With Warner and without Warner.

You guys actually feel MINN has a poor receiving corp prior to acquiring Randy Moss? I mean, it must have nothing to do with a QB who did zero physical activity during the offseason...

and lacking Boldin...

Boldin wasn't a deep threat. They have a deep threat and a valid #2 receiver in Breaston (14 catches).

How about Phillip Rivers not missing Jackson?

You just won't see that WR's don't make the QB as much as the QB makes the offense. Acquiring Jackson is NOT going to solve our problems. Improved blocking from last year from the bottom in the league to above average (minus one 5-sack game) is NOT improving this offense.

Having a QB who can throw to an NFL by definition open receiver is what will improve this offense.

I NEVER said the WRs were more important than the QB. You keep harping on that and I keep telling you they are related. So is the performance of the OL. So is the coaching philosophy. All of that is part of what will have to change, in addition to the level of QB play, before this team has a quality offense.

Put Chad Henne on this team, David Garrard, Bruce Gradkowski, Shaun Hill, Matt Cassel or any of that group on this team and the offense would be no better. It would take a Top 10 QB like a Schaub or Rivers to make this group of receivers half way respectable...and that ain't gonna happen.

That's where you are missing it. You put a top 10 QB on this team and they will make Crabtree and Vernon Davis two of the more dangerous passing threats in the game. It will drastically change this offense.

HOWEVER, you put the best WR in the NFL on this team and it may only slightly improve Alex Smith but it won't keep him from making bad reads and throwing away from tight coverage similar to Henne with Marshall. It won't change this offense much.

Therefore, you would rather invest more money for less change (adding a WR) than more money for greater change (making plans to invest in a better QB).

We already missed that opportunity with Vick and McNabb. This team needs to think about QB, not WR in their personnel plans or we may miss another one.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by excelsior:
dj43, a bright guy, called to our attention how MINN found that they needed a deep threat because the lack therof was hurting their offense. Look at what effect this failure has on a QB, no matter how great:

Favre QB rating 60.4 2 TD, 6 INT
A. Smith QB rating 66.1 3 TD, 7 INT

These stats suggest that Alex's struggles are somewhat tied to our shortcomings in our receiver corps.

Thanks.

WOW. That stat comparison is startling. I didn't take the time to do that research but it certainly is compelling.

And the counterexample; Arizona Cardinals. With Warner and without Warner.

You guys actually feel MINN has a poor receiving corp prior to acquiring Randy Moss? I mean, it must have nothing to do with a QB who did zero physical activity during the offseason...

and lacking Boldin...

Boldin wasn't a deep threat. They have a deep threat and a valid #2 receiver in Breaston (14 catches).

How about Phillip Rivers not missing Jackson?

You just won't see that WR's don't make the QB as much as the QB makes the offense. Acquiring Jackson is NOT going to solve our problems. Improved blocking from last year from the bottom in the league to above average (minus one 5-sack game) is NOT improving this offense.

Having a QB who can throw to an NFL by definition open receiver is what will improve this offense.

I NEVER said the WRs were more important than the QB. You keep harping on that and I keep telling you they are related. So is the performance of the OL. So is the coaching philosophy. All of that is part of what will have to change, in addition to the level of QB play, before this team has a quality offense.

Put Chad Henne on this team, David Garrard, Bruce Gradkowski, Shaun Hill, Matt Cassel or any of that group on this team and the offense would be no better. It would take a Top 10 QB like a Schaub or Rivers to make this group of receivers half way respectable...and that ain't gonna happen.

That's where you are missing it. You put a top 10 QB on this team and they will make Crabtree and Vernon Davis two of the more dangerous passing threats in the game. It will drastically change this offense.

HOWEVER, you put the best WR in the NFL on this team and it may only slightly improve Alex Smith but it won't keep him from making bad reads and throwing away from tight coverage similar to Henne with Marshall. It won't change this offense much.

Therefore, you would rather invest more money for less change (adding a WR) than more money for greater change (making plans to invest in a better QB).

We already missed that opportunity with Vick and McNabb. This team needs to think about QB, not WR in their personnel plans or we may miss another one.

It needs both. Let's hope Ginn and Kyle Williams can make a difference.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Vincent Jackson is dangling there on the market and could be a bargain if this continues much longer. The Niners would need to sacrifice a probable second rounder to secure him, but he would be an upgrade over Josh Morgan, who is a nice player, but not much of a difference maker.

A WR corp of Jackson as the number one, Crabtree as the number two, Ginn and Morgan fighting for the third and fourth spots, Zeigler as the number five, and Williams being our special team return man, and insurance, is a nice looking group, to go along with Gore and Westbrook, and Davis and Walker.

Open this field up, put four WR's on the field and let her rip.

I could see it now. Vincent Jackson running along the sideline, towering a full 6" above any defender around him. Ginn is already deep in midfield, 3 yards behind the defense, and Crabtree is about to make a precise cut in his midfield route to slice between the DBs assigned to him. Smith drops back, winds up..... And throws a 3 yard pass to Delainie Walker, with the velocity of a pass intended to go 60 yards. INT. But hey, that's OK, the head coach realizes that this is not Smiths fault. That pass was "pretty good"

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Leathaface:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Vincent Jackson is dangling there on the market and could be a bargain if this continues much longer. The Niners would need to sacrifice a probable second rounder to secure him, but he would be an upgrade over Josh Morgan, who is a nice player, but not much of a difference maker.

A WR corp of Jackson as the number one, Crabtree as the number two, Ginn and Morgan fighting for the third and fourth spots, Zeigler as the number five, and Williams being our special team return man, and insurance, is a nice looking group, to go along with Gore and Westbrook, and Davis and Walker.

Open this field up, put four WR's on the field and let her rip.

Sure that would be a nice lineup at WR...but we don't have a QB.

It'd be funny if we DID make that deal and then watch it be followed by another week of Alex's ineptitude. I couldn't imagine the Alexcuses we'd get then.

They would say that Jackson wasn't actually that good because he didn't help out the SD offense all that much.


Note: Phillip Rivers is playing just as good without Vincent Jackson.

dj, there's another example. I can dig up more if you like. I can dig up even more examples of QB's improving teams with the same WR's as the previous QB.

Actually, Rivers is close to last year but not quite as good.

Overall rating 102 versus 104 in 2009 - not quite as good

TD % 6.4 versus 5.8 - slightly better

yards/att - 9.4 versus 8.8 - slightly better

longest completion 59 versus 81 all last year - longest was to...jackson

Interceptions 4 so far 9 in 09 he is on pace for nearly double the number of Int

he is also throwing the ball 5+ times more/game this year.

So no, it isn't a big difference but he still has Gates, who is having a big year, Floyd has come into his own, and Naanee is playing very well.

Of course all that is only because Rivers is so much better than Favre that he could throw TDs to a dead chicken.

But by your theory, he shouldn't be playing this good without Jackson, a #1 WR. You use Gates as your argument for him playing well, but when I used Vernon as a point that Smith has good receivers, you said he's a TE and they don't have as much effect as a #1 deep threat WR.

So if Jackson didn't affect Rivers numbers very much, how much do you actually think a "#1" deep threat will affect Alex Smith? The possibilities must be endless with one WR.

Also, look at the Falcons. Vick had the same receivers Ryan had yet Ryan is getting them the ball.

What are you not getting? I already agreed that the QB is more important than the WRs AS A SINGLE INFLUENCE.

I also said, and have cited numerous professional observers who believe the 49er receivers to be nothing more than a collection of #2 receivers. No matter who the QB is, the receiver corp needs to be improved. That is why the 49ers drafted Williams and signed Ginn - to add speed and a deep threat so that the underneath routes would clear out. That was the stated purpose of those actions. Unfortunately neither of those two guys have seen a regular season snap. THEREFORE, isn't it logical to assume that the 49er passing offense is rather incomplete due to their absence?

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Leathaface:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Vincent Jackson is dangling there on the market and could be a bargain if this continues much longer. The Niners would need to sacrifice a probable second rounder to secure him, but he would be an upgrade over Josh Morgan, who is a nice player, but not much of a difference maker.

A WR corp of Jackson as the number one, Crabtree as the number two, Ginn and Morgan fighting for the third and fourth spots, Zeigler as the number five, and Williams being our special team return man, and insurance, is a nice looking group, to go along with Gore and Westbrook, and Davis and Walker.

Open this field up, put four WR's on the field and let her rip.

Sure that would be a nice lineup at WR...but we don't have a QB.

It'd be funny if we DID make that deal and then watch it be followed by another week of Alex's ineptitude. I couldn't imagine the Alexcuses we'd get then.

They would say that Jackson wasn't actually that good because he didn't help out the SD offense all that much.


Note: Phillip Rivers is playing just as good without Vincent Jackson.

dj, there's another example. I can dig up more if you like. I can dig up even more examples of QB's improving teams with the same WR's as the previous QB.

Actually, Rivers is close to last year but not quite as good.

Overall rating 102 versus 104 in 2009 - not quite as good

TD % 6.4 versus 5.8 - slightly better

yards/att - 9.4 versus 8.8 - slightly better

longest completion 59 versus 81 all last year - longest was to...jackson

Interceptions 4 so far 9 in 09 he is on pace for nearly double the number of Int

he is also throwing the ball 5+ times more/game this year.

So no, it isn't a big difference but he still has Gates, who is having a big year, Floyd has come into his own, and Naanee is playing very well.

Of course all that is only because Rivers is so much better than Favre that he could throw TDs to a dead chicken.

But by your theory, he shouldn't be playing this good without Jackson, a #1 WR. You use Gates as your argument for him playing well, but when I used Vernon as a point that Smith has good receivers, you said he's a TE and they don't have as much effect as a #1 deep threat WR.

So if Jackson didn't affect Rivers numbers very much, how much do you actually think a "#1" deep threat will affect Alex Smith? The possibilities must be endless with one WR.

Also, look at the Falcons. Vick had the same receivers Ryan had yet Ryan is getting them the ball.

What are you not getting? I already agreed that the QB is more important than the WRs AS A SINGLE INFLUENCE.

I also said, and have cited numerous professional observers who believe the 49er receivers to be nothing more than a collection of #2 receivers. No matter who the QB is, the receiver corp needs to be improved. That is why the 49ers drafted Williams and signed Ginn - to add speed and a deep threat so that the underneath routes would clear out. That was the stated purpose of those actions. Unfortunately neither of those two guys have seen a regular season snap. THEREFORE, isn't it logical to assume that the 49er passing offense is rather incomplete due to their absence?

We need even more speed. If Morgan ran better routes, his lack of speed would mean less, but that's not the case. We need to split both Vernon and Ginn wide with Crabtree and Zeigler, the two best route runners out wide.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by excelsior:
dj43, a bright guy, called to our attention how MINN found that they needed a deep threat because the lack therof was hurting their offense. Look at what effect this failure has on a QB, no matter how great:

Favre QB rating 60.4 2 TD, 6 INT
A. Smith QB rating 66.1 3 TD, 7 INT

These stats suggest that Alex's struggles are somewhat tied to our shortcomings in our receiver corps.

Thanks.

WOW. That stat comparison is startling. I didn't take the time to do that research but it certainly is compelling.

And the counterexample; Arizona Cardinals. With Warner and without Warner.

You guys actually feel MINN has a poor receiving corp prior to acquiring Randy Moss? I mean, it must have nothing to do with a QB who did zero physical activity during the offseason...

It is not just "us guys." It was Minnesota's PROFESSIONAL management staff that recognized, upon analyzing what was happening to their passing game without Sidney Rice, their deep threat. With Percy Harvin still limited by migraines, and Rice still unable to play for another month or more, and recognizing that Favre will likely retire for good next season, they went all-in to get a player to do for their offense now what Rice had done last season.

That is what "those professional guys" back in Minnesota saw that their football team was needing.

Also, what is your link to the idea Favre did no physical activity in the off-season. He did have ankle surgery and spent a fair amount of time in rehab to recover. Doesn't rehab count?

You are talking about a team who is gearing themselves to the Superbowl because Favre is pretty much done. They would have made an attempt to acquire Randy Moss no matter what.

Just watch: the MIN offense won't improve by much, especially Favres efficiency.

Chad Henne's doing great with better WR's isn't he?

Joe, you're a bright guy but your anti-Smith filter is taking you to places that are hurting your credibility. You need to just recognize that Alex Smith is not the only reason this offense is struggling.

Everyone in the league has commented on how much the loss of Sidney Rice has impacted not only the Viking passing game but how defenses stack the box now to take away Adrian Peterson and the running game because they have no fear of a deep threat. Losing that one solid deep threat had impacted every aspect of their offense. They had to do something. To suggest that Minne would have given up a 4th round pick if Rice was still able to perform as he did last year is to ignore all the evidence that suggests otherwise.

I never said he is the only reason. I feel he is the main reason.

Downgraded receiving corp from 2009: No change in production by QB:
McNabb
Kyle Orton


Upgraded: No change in production
Carson Palmer
Chad Henne

Mark Sanchez improved his play with a "defensive coach" and not great WRs.


My point is that you change WR's and you won't see a major difference, but if you change QB's, you see a much larger difference.

Alex Smith isn't going to turn into a top 10 QB with better WR's. However, this offense has a better chance at turning into a top 10 offense with the same WR's but a better QB.

That's what some just aren't seeing. Smith has some major limitations. You can give him a Brandon Marshal like Henne got but it won't make a difference. You put Alex Smith on the NYJ, and he doesn't do what Sanchez has done this year. Sanchez had made some great throws that Alex hasn't made in 6 years.


Let's just say we will see. He has about 2 more games to show he can be consistent let alone better than mediocre.

Did you see Marshall Monday night stop on a shake route resulting in Henne's pass going right into the hands of Patrick Chung?

Yes, the 49ers need better QB play but the 49ers also need better WR play. Peyton Manning and about 5-8 other QBs in the league could make the WRs look better but that does not change the fact that NONE of the current group would start for any of the top 10 passing teams. NONE. They are that bad. Crabtree is the only one with much upside at all, and everyone now agrees he is little more than a high-priced possession receiver who won't go over the middle and avoids contact whenever possible.

I don't buy that for one second. Just look at San Diego. They have Michael Floyd and Naane as their starter receivers and they're 3rd in the league in passing right now. There's 2 differences between them and us and that's it. Norv Turner, Phillip Rivers.

Hell you put Pierre Garcon and Austin Collie on the Niners they'd be lucky to see the field.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Oct 7, 2010 at 22:35:44 ]