Can you see Zeigler becoming our #2?

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Which linebacker do you speak of?

Mike Furrey.

Mike Furrey was a wide receiver at Northern Iowa. Never played a down on defense, let alone linebacker.

Switched to Safety prior to the 2005 season with the Rams due to depth issues.

Martz signed him as an UFA in 2006 when he became the Offensive Coordinator with Detroit and transitioned him back to Wide Receiver.

It should also be noted that Kitna attempted 596 passes that season.

Safety, linebacker... big deal. The point still stands, Martz can make players look very good. How many guys have had career years under him? On top of that, Knox, Hester, Bennet and Aroamashadu are better than any receivers we have on our lineup, minus Crabtree.

Point stands that he turned a life-long wide receiver, that got a shot at safety on a team with two pro-bowl WRs and depth at the position, into a 90 catch wide receiver? LOL

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by oxford2517:
i quick note for u guys that dont understand football is still a business the only reason zeigler was on practice squad last yr was caz he got hurt also had he a played in 9 games instead of 8 in 2008 he wouldd have made the roster. but since he was still eligible for practice squad 49ers hid he there he's been outplaying other receivers for last 2 yrs but there salaries kept them on field so now bruce gone and they cut jones his time is here let the kid play he'll surprise all u haters .

no one is hating on him every1 thinks hes a reliable WR however he hasnt proved much at all and morgan is much better at this point and has proved much more

Morgan has proven very little on the field. Don't fool yourself. I like Josh Morgan, but he is overrated here.

The thing that scares me about Josh is he used to be a lot more explosive. Don't any of you guys remember his rookie year? His average yards/reception was 16, last year it was only 10, and this year he's struggled to get open during the preseason. Last offseason he looked stronger but probably slower, and he's probably placing too much of an emphasis on being a good blocking WR rather than being an explosive WR to take advantage of his hops.

The Martz offense was the reason for his higher YPC. Martz has done that for just about every receiver he has ever worked with.

Dude was a rookie and Shaun Hill was his QB. Basically negating any Martz effect.

Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Well he didn't do that with Shaun Hill. Martz may have had a factor, but Hill was the QB and Sing reeled Martz in by the time Morgan was getting major playing time his rookie year. That was not a Martz offense in the 2nd half of 08. It was Martz conforming to what Singletary wanted. Learn more about the facts of the conversation and get back to me.

The difference in Morgan's YPC from 08' to 09' has more to do with the number of catches he had than who the coordinator in the year his YPC was higher. Generally speaking, the average goes down the more catches a guy has. He had more than 2.5x more catches in 09 than he did in 08 (when he only had 20). It makes little sense to put much weight on a guy's YPC (or the reason for the number, including if Mike Martz was the OC) in a season where he only had 20 catches. The devil is in the details.

Morgan's YPC in 2008 were a result of Martz's offense! That is it, end of discussion.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=11408&sYear=2008

He was on the right end of a few bombs, including a fluke play late against St. Louis. Due to his small number of catches, those big gains really pushed up his average.

Originally posted by 49erFan:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erFan:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erFan:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erFan:
I think the biggest clue that he is a lock to make the roster, comes from the fact he didn't do any punt returning... It appears that Sing doesn't think he needs to standout as a returner to grab a spot.

Or knows that he can't.

I suppose you could cast that spin on it too. However, Sing talked about three guys possibly returning punts in the Vikes game. Guillory, Zeigler and Ginn. I think it's more likely that Sing knows what he has in Ginn, and Zeigler.

Right, he knows that Zeigler has always had problems with it, in camp and in PS games in previous years. Unless he's seen something consistent and special in camp, something he doesn't want to see in games, I doubt he has a lot of confidence in Zeigler as a ST player.

We'll see what happens on Sat in Oakland. I think the Guillory (sp) experiment has run it's course.

Zeigler has always had problems with it? Can't say I have heard that... In fact, Singletary seems to feel he is reliable back there, if needed.

Link
-Q: Are you looking at Ziegler seriously as a punt returner?

-SINGLETARY: He’s more of an emergency guy for us, but I know that there are a couple things about Ziegler. He’s a very dependable guy. He has been up to this point. So it’s certainly a situation, which if we had to, we would.

As for your doubts that he has confidence in Zeigler as a ST player, you may be interested in this quote from the same link...

-Q: Is it uncommon to have a guy his weight so comfortable going over the middle on routes?

-SINGLETARY: He’s a unique guy. Very unselfish, he doesn’t mind going across the middle or going underneath, doing some of the dirty work. He’s a guy who does everything for us. He wears a lot of different hats.

He can play any of the receiver positions, give us some flexibility and he’s really good on special teams as well.

If you disagree Zeigler should be #2, we can agree on that. If you don't think he is going to make this team, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Injury is the only way we are not going to see Zeigler on the final 53.

Sing is just talking him up. If he really thought that wouldn't he actually PLAY ON SPECIAL TEAMS?

Oh, so now your logic is that Sing is talking up a guy he actually doesn't think is good. Interesting, seeing as Sing is about as open with criticism as a coach gets. Just ask Nate Davis...

My logic is he talks everyone up. Just like he talked Balmer and Jones up on the way out the door. Just like he talked Guillory up after the last two PS games. The Nate Davis thing was on OBVIOUS motivational thing. I thought everyone understood that.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Which linebacker do you speak of?

Mike Furrey.

Mike Furrey was a wide receiver at Northern Iowa. Never played a down on defense, let alone linebacker.

Switched to Safety prior to the 2005 season with the Rams due to depth issues.

Martz signed him as an UFA in 2006 when he became the Offensive Coordinator with Detroit and transitioned him back to Wide Receiver.

It should also be noted that Kitna attempted 596 passes that season.

Safety, linebacker... big deal. The point still stands, Martz can make players look very good. How many guys have had career years under him? On top of that, Knox, Hester, Bennet and Aroamashadu are better than any receivers we have on our lineup, minus Crabtree.

Point stands that he turned a life-long wide receiver, that got a shot at safety on a team with two pro-bowl WRs and depth at the position, into a 90 catch wide receiver? LOL

It does. Prior to Martz, he was a tweener player that coaches weren't sure where to place. In his prior NFL career, he had all of 21 receptions. In his first year with Martz, he caught 98 balls!

I was going off of memory and I see I made some mistakes in my initial comment, but still, the point stands. I think anyone can see that.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by oxford2517:
i quick note for u guys that dont understand football is still a business the only reason zeigler was on practice squad last yr was caz he got hurt also had he a played in 9 games instead of 8 in 2008 he wouldd have made the roster. but since he was still eligible for practice squad 49ers hid he there he's been outplaying other receivers for last 2 yrs but there salaries kept them on field so now bruce gone and they cut jones his time is here let the kid play he'll surprise all u haters .

no one is hating on him every1 thinks hes a reliable WR however he hasnt proved much at all and morgan is much better at this point and has proved much more

Morgan has proven very little on the field. Don't fool yourself. I like Josh Morgan, but he is overrated here.

The thing that scares me about Josh is he used to be a lot more explosive. Don't any of you guys remember his rookie year? His average yards/reception was 16, last year it was only 10, and this year he's struggled to get open during the preseason. Last offseason he looked stronger but probably slower, and he's probably placing too much of an emphasis on being a good blocking WR rather than being an explosive WR to take advantage of his hops.

The Martz offense was the reason for his higher YPC. Martz has done that for just about every receiver he has ever worked with.

Dude was a rookie and Shaun Hill was his QB. Basically negating any Martz effect.

Why?

A rookie can do well, if he's a good player. Look at Crabtree.

As for Hill being the QB, so what? Make fun of him if you will, but he got the ball to his receivers. His arm isn't strong, but it was strong enough to complete passes 25-30 yards down field, which is more than far enough for Morgan since he lacks game-breaking, deep-threat speed.

I don't want to discuss Shaun Hill, but him being the QB doesn't negate the Martz effect, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Which linebacker do you speak of?

Mike Furrey.

Mike Furrey was a wide receiver at Northern Iowa. Never played a down on defense, let alone linebacker.

Switched to Safety prior to the 2005 season with the Rams due to depth issues.

Martz signed him as an UFA in 2006 when he became the Offensive Coordinator with Detroit and transitioned him back to Wide Receiver.

It should also be noted that Kitna attempted 596 passes that season.

Safety, linebacker... big deal. The point still stands, Martz can make players look very good. How many guys have had career years under him? On top of that, Knox, Hester, Bennet and Aroamashadu are better than any receivers we have on our lineup, minus Crabtree.

Point stands that he turned a life-long wide receiver, that got a shot at safety on a team with two pro-bowl WRs and depth at the position, into a 90 catch wide receiver? LOL

It does. Prior to Martz, he was a tweener player that coaches weren't sure where to place. In his prior NFL career, he had all of 21 receptions. In his first year with Martz, he caught 98 balls!

I was going off of memory and I see I made some mistakes in my initial comment, but still, the point stands. I think anyone can see that.

You tried to make it seem like he turned a linebacker into an elite receiver. When it couldn't be further from the truth. He turned a receiver into a better receiver. He's done that with scores of guys and everyone already knows that...

I.e. if you didn't think Mike Furrey was a linebacker you never would have made that comment

Originally posted by 49erRider:
Why?

A rookie can do well, if he's a good player. Look at Crabtree.

Crabtree was arguably the greatest college WR in history, he's the exception, not the rule. Wide receivers are notoriously not big producers their rookie season. Even the ones that go on to be the best.

Originally posted by 49erRider:
As for Hill being the QB, so what? Make fun of him if you will, but he got the ball to his receivers. His arm isn't strong, but it was strong enough to complete passes 25-30 yards down field, which is more than far enough for Morgan since he lacks game-breaking, deep-threat speed.

I don't want to discuss Shaun Hill, but him being the QB doesn't negate the Martz effect, in my opinion.

I wasn't making fun of him, or saying Hill didn't even play well in 08' (he did), just saying him being the QB has an effect on the Martz offense. Hill rarely got the ball down the field. JT'Osullivan had a higher YPA and YPC than Shaun Hill in 08' even though Hill had more yards per game because Shaun Hill usually threw shorter/safer passes, period.

Shaun Hill was the better QB but his receiver's YPC went down once he took over the QB position. Facts are facts.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Which linebacker do you speak of?

Mike Furrey.

Mike Furrey was a wide receiver at Northern Iowa. Never played a down on defense, let alone linebacker.

Switched to Safety prior to the 2005 season with the Rams due to depth issues.

Martz signed him as an UFA in 2006 when he became the Offensive Coordinator with Detroit and transitioned him back to Wide Receiver.

It should also be noted that Kitna attempted 596 passes that season.

Safety, linebacker... big deal. The point still stands, Martz can make players look very good. How many guys have had career years under him? On top of that, Knox, Hester, Bennet and Aroamashadu are better than any receivers we have on our lineup, minus Crabtree.

Point stands that he turned a life-long wide receiver, that got a shot at safety on a team with two pro-bowl WRs and depth at the position, into a 90 catch wide receiver? LOL

It does. Prior to Martz, he was a tweener player that coaches weren't sure where to place. In his prior NFL career, he had all of 21 receptions. In his first year with Martz, he caught 98 balls!

I was going off of memory and I see I made some mistakes in my initial comment, but still, the point stands. I think anyone can see that.

You tried to make it seem like he turned a linebacker into an elite receiver. When it couldn't be further from the truth. He turned a receiver into a better receiver. He's done that with scores of guys and everyone already knows that...

I.e. if you didn't think Mike Furrey was a linebacker you never would have made that comment

Safety... linebacker... they're not that far removed from each other.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Canadian49er:
Zeigler is an ideal slot receiver ala Arnaz Battle. Sure hands and an ability to absorb punishment. He's a perfect 3rd down option along with VD.

What in the world gives you that idea?

Someone hasn't been following 49ers training camp. There's been multiple articles highlighting his fearlessness

Originally posted by Canadian49er:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Canadian49er:
Zeigler is an ideal slot receiver ala Arnaz Battle. Sure hands and an ability to absorb punishment. He's a perfect 3rd down option along with VD.

What in the world gives you that idea?

Someone hasn't been following 49ers training camp. There's been multiple articles highlighting his fearlessness

Don't you know? Nothing Sing says is true, he is simply hyping up a guy he plans to cut.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by oxford2517:
i quick note for u guys that dont understand football is still a business the only reason zeigler was on practice squad last yr was caz he got hurt also had he a played in 9 games instead of 8 in 2008 he wouldd have made the roster. but since he was still eligible for practice squad 49ers hid he there he's been outplaying other receivers for last 2 yrs but there salaries kept them on field so now bruce gone and they cut jones his time is here let the kid play he'll surprise all u haters .

no one is hating on him every1 thinks hes a reliable WR however he hasnt proved much at all and morgan is much better at this point and has proved much more

Morgan has proven very little on the field. Don't fool yourself. I like Josh Morgan, but he is overrated here.

The thing that scares me about Josh is he used to be a lot more explosive. Don't any of you guys remember his rookie year? His average yards/reception was 16, last year it was only 10, and this year he's struggled to get open during the preseason. Last offseason he looked stronger but probably slower, and he's probably placing too much of an emphasis on being a good blocking WR rather than being an explosive WR to take advantage of his hops.

Morgan has never been explosive. He's always been slow.

insert atlanta game tape here

From what I've seen of Z, I can say that I want to see more of him. I think make the team, then try to make the most of your opportunities. I'm optimistic about our team in general though.

holy crap this thread has devolved into a pile of crap....is this still seriously being debated?

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erRider:
Why?

A rookie can do well, if he's a good player. Look at Crabtree.

Crabtree was arguably the greatest college WR in history, he's the exception, not the rule. Wide receivers are notoriously not big producers their rookie season. Even the ones that go on to be the best.

Originally posted by 49erRider:
As for Hill being the QB, so what? Make fun of him if you will, but he got the ball to his receivers. His arm isn't strong, but it was strong enough to complete passes 25-30 yards down field, which is more than far enough for Morgan since he lacks game-breaking, deep-threat speed.

I don't want to discuss Shaun Hill, but him being the QB doesn't negate the Martz effect, in my opinion.

I wasn't making fun of him, or saying Hill didn't even play well in 08' (he did), just saying him being the QB has an effect on the Martz offense. Hill rarely got the ball down the field. JT'Osullivan had a higher YPA and YPC than Shaun Hill in 08' even though Hill had more yards per game because Shaun Hill usually threw shorter/safer passes, period.

Shaun Hill was the better QB but his receiver's YPC went down once he took over the QB position. Facts are facts.

Fair enough.

I can see him not making the team.