The truth about Dashon Goldson.

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
Ya, he was inconsistent, but showed some nice flashes of dominance. He should be given another year as starter at FS, and if he continues to struggle in pass coverage, he would make a good SS at least.

Exactly I don't understand why folks can't wait to see consistency out of players for more than a few games. How bout a entire season or 2 season before folks start getting crowned or labeled. Goldson and Brooks both need to prove they can play on a high level for more than 5/6 games. If a year from now both of these guys perform for a whole season like they did down the stretch then you have something. it's like everybody wants to final answer on a player after a small sample time. Goldson had some terrible games and some nice games. I mean after the 1st 10 games folks were talking bout he needs to go. Then a great final 6 games and he's playing on a pro bowl level and has arrived.

LOl, it's funny cuz there are at least 5 to 10 players on our roster that this same type of thinking should be towards. But dont forget we are the zone. (dont think i need to say anymore)

Was it you who started the double standard thread? I really understand your point now. I'm guilty of it from time to time, but i mean you get one thread over hyping the guy. Which leads to a thread like this which mentions him being the worst safety in the league.

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
Ya, he was inconsistent, but showed some nice flashes of dominance. He should be given another year as starter at FS, and if he continues to struggle in pass coverage, he would make a good SS at least.

Exactly I don't understand why folks can't wait to see consistency out of players for more than a few games. How bout a entire season or 2 season before folks start getting crowned or labeled. Goldson and Brooks both need to prove they can play on a high level for more than 5/6 games. If a year from now both of these guys perform for a whole season like they did down the stretch then you have something. it's like everybody wants to final answer on a player after a small sample time. Goldson had some terrible games and some nice games. I mean after the 1st 10 games folks were talking bout he needs to go. Then a great final 6 games and he's playing on a pro bowl level and has arrived.

LOl, it's funny cuz there are at least 5 to 10 players on our roster that this same type of thinking should be towards. But dont forget we are the zone. (dont think i need to say anymore)

What else are we suppose to talk about? We eat and breathe football all year around. Over reaction in either direction is normal. It's just an opinion. Could you imagine how boring this place would be if only the stat masters or football educated elite where allowed to post? I for one love the goofy pics, rambling nonsensical posters, Debbie downers and cup always half full philosophers. Our fan base and opinions are as varied as our education levels, economic backgrounds, view on life and any other thing that’s unique to an individual.

Embrace it brotha's, that’s why the Zones, the Zone....

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
Ya, he was inconsistent, but showed some nice flashes of dominance. He should be given another year as starter at FS, and if he continues to struggle in pass coverage, he would make a good SS at least.

Exactly I don't understand why folks can't wait to see consistency out of players for more than a few games. How bout a entire season or 2 season before folks start getting crowned or labeled. Goldson and Brooks both need to prove they can play on a high level for more than 5/6 games. If a year from now both of these guys perform for a whole season like they did down the stretch then you have something. it's like everybody wants to final answer on a player after a small sample time. Goldson had some terrible games and some nice games. I mean after the 1st 10 games folks were talking bout he needs to go. Then a great final 6 games and he's playing on a pro bowl level and has arrived.

LOl, it's funny cuz there are at least 5 to 10 players on our roster that this same type of thinking should be towards. But dont forget we are the zone. (dont think i need to say anymore)

Was it you who started the double standard thread? I really understand your point now. I'm guilty of it from time to time, but i mean you get one thread over hyping the guy. Which leads to a thread like this which mentions him being the worst safety in the league.

LOL, yeah that was me. And it wasnt started for Smith either. It was started for those that say football is a team sport, but at the same time, hold each player to a different standard. I just say that aint right. Dont omit stuff, you know what i mean. I say take the good with the bad, but do just that.

Its funny cuz no one, and i mean no one has responded to my dbl standard question, and that was. If our QB did ok in the final 3 games, some bashed him because he should of produced much more against a sorry team. So he gets no love. However, our D had some of their best team and individual numbers in the final 3 games, playing those same 3 teams. Why is their production glorified, and smith's negated. Did I miss something, or regardless of either side of the ball were we still not playing a sorry ass team?

Sign Mark Roman to an extension now!

Originally posted by SoCal9ers:
Sign Mark Roman to an extension now!

Originally posted by excelsior:
I know it is easy to get excited about the so-called "deep" draft this year. We are drooling over the good prospects that can become 49ers this year. But I look at this a little differently. It is a deep draft for all the other teams as well. Even the good teams that draft late in each round will be doing well. As we improve, so will the teams we are hoping to overtake.

This would make the point...Again...that we need a more talented GM to find talent.

I totally agree.

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
I am usually very opposed to moving guys out of postion...but I cant shake the feeling Goldson is a stud Strong Safety waiting to happen. I really wish that Sing would consider moving Clements to freeas well, with his dimished speed due to age he could still be pro bowl material in a saftey postion, and Goldson playing closer to the line lets him cover backs and TE's more often where he is less likely to get burned. We would need to draft one stud cover corner rather than thinking about a Corner and a Safety. It would hing on Clements being able to convert, but damned if it wouldnt potentially prolong his career by a couple of years and potentially improve our secondary. Spencer/Harris and Bly/Draft pick at corner and Clement and Goldson at Safety...with plenty of young guys and vets for depth.

There's nobody on the roster except Michael Lewis who's really got the size for SS. I'm not a believer in taking a fast player (like Goldson) and fattening him up. I like Goldson where he is and as he is! especially if he continues to improve like he did late-season.

Nate Clements will stay a corner until it's obvious to everybody that he can't do it anymore.. either for this team or another one.

Taylor Mays has taken a lot of flak for lack of coverage skills, same as Michael Lewis has.. but Mays is a big boy who's played with speed at 225 in college and NOBODY says the kid can't hit! In the 2nd round, I'd be tempted to draft him. Who was it the other day (think it mighta been Rex Ryan) who said that BIG HITS are game changers, even more than big scoring plays, even more than INTs. You might quibble about the word "more" but it's worth thinking about!

Goldson will make an excellent Strong Safety.... PDs and INTs are the province of a ball hawking Free Safety.... and I'm all for moving Nate Clements over to FS and drafting a solid CB to replace him. Nate is not the shut down corner (gets torched far too often) he once was. He'd make an awesome FS though.

Originally posted by Niners99:
Ive noticed for the past few weeks, there a big myth going around the zone that Dashon Goldson is a pro bowl caliber S. statistics prove otherwise.

first lets look at his positives. he seemed to really have a knack for jarring the ball loose. in the game that basically started driving this myth, monday night vs. AZ, he made alot of very fundamental hits to knock the ball free.

he also tied for the NFL lead in sacks by S, with 3, although that was really all he did in the business of getting to the QB. hes nowhere to be found in QB hits or pressures, so you cant really call him a "pass rushing S".

He was solid against stopping the run, as was our entire D. finished in the top 10 for total tackles by a S in the NFL. he also picked off 4 passes, good for an 8 way tie for 7th most. (although he did have alot of chances)

and now for the not so impressive stuff.

Dashon Goldson was the worst cover S in football this season. yes, jarring fumbles loose is great, racking up tackles is nice too, but if youre a defensive back, you better be able to cover a pass catcher, or youll be out of a job no matter how hard you hit.

he was thrown at 52 times, good for 5th most in the NFL (which explains the high tackle total). he also gave up the 6th most yardage to pass catchers he was responsible for with 438, just 10 more yds than his buddy Michael Lewis at 7th. he gave up 3 TD's, which was top 15 (in a bad way).

while he racked up alot of tackles, he also missed 13 tackles, which is the 6th highest NFL total. only 2 PD this season, which is ranked 33rd.

now im not making this thread to tear him down, or to call him a bad player. hes still young, and has the tools to possibly get alot better and make his game more well rounded. right now, hes a hard hitter, he can knock a ball loose, and he seems to be around the ball alot. whether or not its because he cant cover, im not sure.

but the point is, he was not a pro bowl player this year, not even close. he can stuff the run, he can hit, he can even get after the passer a little bit, but until he improves his AWFUL coverage skills, he will be a liability to this defense. i have faith he can improve his coverage, but by no means should his job be safe.

Claiming he was the worst cover safety in the league this year is just as bad an over-exaggeration as claiming he was a pro-bowler. Certainly, he didn't maintain a pro-bowl level of play throughout the season but he was playing at a pretty high level in the last 4 or 5 games of the season. IMO, he drastically cut down on the poor angles that he was taking in the beginning of the season.

As far as the stats go, I don't think using total yards and targets is the best way to rank a safety. I would say yards/target and QB rating for the targets is a better measure. I'm assuming you got your stats from profootballfocus.com, so here it goes:

yards/target = 12.6 - 25th out of 64 safeties who played more than 550 snaps. (Worst was LaRon Landry at 25.5)
QB rating = 78.8 - 31st out of 64 safeties who played more than 550 snaps. (Worst was Reggie Nelson at 143.1)

I'd hardly say he was the worst cover safety in the league.

Originally posted by WINiner:
I would like links to ANYONE saying Goldson is a PB FS. I don't think you will find any, and that this is simply you trying to be a Debbie Downer for the sake of.

For his 1st year starting Goldson showed considerable improvement from the begining of the season to the end of it. I don't think ANYONE has said he is a PB safety, but I do think that evidence of his maturation has folks comfy with him manning one of (and really either one imo) our safety positions into the future.

there have been a couple instances. thats the reason i made this thread. i dont want to try and go find them, but this is niner talk. you seriously think nobody would ever say a mediocre S shouldve made the pro bowl because theyre a niner?

Originally posted by CalgaryNiner:

Originally posted by Niners99:
Ive noticed for the past few weeks, there a big myth going around the zone that Dashon Goldson is a pro bowl caliber S. statistics prove otherwise.

first lets look at his positives. he seemed to really have a knack for jarring the ball loose. in the game that basically started driving this myth, monday night vs. AZ, he made alot of very fundamental hits to knock the ball free.

he also tied for the NFL lead in sacks by S, with 3, although that was really all he did in the business of getting to the QB. hes nowhere to be found in QB hits or pressures, so you cant really call him a "pass rushing S".

He was solid against stopping the run, as was our entire D. finished in the top 10 for total tackles by a S in the NFL. he also picked off 4 passes, good for an 8 way tie for 7th most. (although he did have alot of chances)

and now for the not so impressive stuff.

Dashon Goldson was the worst cover S in football this season. yes, jarring fumbles loose is great, racking up tackles is nice too, but if youre a defensive back, you better be able to cover a pass catcher, or youll be out of a job no matter how hard you hit.

he was thrown at 52 times, good for 5th most in the NFL (which explains the high tackle total). he also gave up the 6th most yardage to pass catchers he was responsible for with 438, just 10 more yds than his buddy Michael Lewis at 7th. he gave up 3 TD's, which was top 15 (in a bad way).

while he racked up alot of tackles, he also missed 13 tackles, which is the 6th highest NFL total. only 2 PD this season, which is ranked 33rd.

now im not making this thread to tear him down, or to call him a bad player. hes still young, and has the tools to possibly get alot better and make his game more well rounded. right now, hes a hard hitter, he can knock a ball loose, and he seems to be around the ball alot. whether or not its because he cant cover, im not sure.

but the point is, he was not a pro bowl player this year, not even close. he can stuff the run, he can hit, he can even get after the passer a little bit, but until he improves his AWFUL coverage skills, he will be a liability to this defense. i have faith he can improve his coverage, but by no means should his job be safe.

Claiming he was the worst cover safety in the league this year is just as bad an over-exaggeration as claiming he was a pro-bowler. Certainly, he didn't maintain a pro-bowl level of play throughout the season but he was playing at a pretty high level in the last 4 or 5 games of the season. IMO, he drastically cut down on the poor angles that he was taking in the beginning of the season.

As far as the stats go, I don't think using total yards and targets is the best way to rank a safety. I would say yards/target and QB rating for the targets is a better measure. I'm assuming you got your stats from profootballfocus.com, so here it goes:

yards/target = 12.6 - 25th out of 64 safeties who played more than 550 snaps. (Worst was LaRon Landry at 25.5)
QB rating = 78.8 - 31st out of 64 safeties who played more than 550 snaps. (Worst was Reggie Nelson at 143.1)

I'd hardly say he was the worst cover safety in the league.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=S&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

sort by coverage, and scroll on dowwwwwwn. dont accuse me of just making stuff up if youre going to pull out of your butt that he wasnt the worst just because you dont think so.

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
Ya, he was inconsistent, but showed some nice flashes of dominance. He should be given another year as starter at FS, and if he continues to struggle in pass coverage, he would make a good SS at least.

Exactly I don't understand why folks can't wait to see consistency out of players for more than a few games. How bout a entire season or 2 season before folks start getting crowned or labeled. Goldson and Brooks both need to prove they can play on a high level for more than 5/6 games. If a year from now both of these guys perform for a whole season like they did down the stretch then you have something. it's like everybody wants to final answer on a player after a small sample time. Goldson had some terrible games and some nice games. I mean after the 1st 10 games folks were talking bout he needs to go. Then a great final 6 games and he's playing on a pro bowl level and has arrived.

LOl, it's funny cuz there are at least 5 to 10 players on our roster that this same type of thinking should be towards. But dont forget we are the zone. (dont think i need to say anymore)

Was it you who started the double standard thread? I really understand your point now. I'm guilty of it from time to time, but i mean you get one thread over hyping the guy. Which leads to a thread like this which mentions him being the worst safety in the league.

LOL, yeah that was me. And it wasnt started for Smith either. It was started for those that say football is a team sport, but at the same time, hold each player to a different standard. I just say that aint right. Dont omit stuff, you know what i mean. I say take the good with the bad, but do just that.

Its funny cuz no one, and i mean no one has responded to my dbl standard question, and that was. If our QB did ok in the final 3 games, some bashed him because he should of produced much more against a sorry team. So he gets no love. However, our D had some of their best team and individual numbers in the final 3 games, playing those same 3 teams. Why is their production glorified, and smith's negated. Did I miss something, or regardless of either side of the ball were we still not playing a sorry ass team?

retracted, dont wanna hijack

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by CalgaryNiner:

Originally posted by Niners99:
Ive noticed for the past few weeks, there a big myth going around the zone that Dashon Goldson is a pro bowl caliber S. statistics prove otherwise.

first lets look at his positives. he seemed to really have a knack for jarring the ball loose. in the game that basically started driving this myth, monday night vs. AZ, he made alot of very fundamental hits to knock the ball free.

he also tied for the NFL lead in sacks by S, with 3, although that was really all he did in the business of getting to the QB. hes nowhere to be found in QB hits or pressures, so you cant really call him a "pass rushing S".

He was solid against stopping the run, as was our entire D. finished in the top 10 for total tackles by a S in the NFL. he also picked off 4 passes, good for an 8 way tie for 7th most. (although he did have alot of chances)

and now for the not so impressive stuff.

Dashon Goldson was the worst cover S in football this season. yes, jarring fumbles loose is great, racking up tackles is nice too, but if youre a defensive back, you better be able to cover a pass catcher, or youll be out of a job no matter how hard you hit.

he was thrown at 52 times, good for 5th most in the NFL (which explains the high tackle total). he also gave up the 6th most yardage to pass catchers he was responsible for with 438, just 10 more yds than his buddy Michael Lewis at 7th. he gave up 3 TD's, which was top 15 (in a bad way).

while he racked up alot of tackles, he also missed 13 tackles, which is the 6th highest NFL total. only 2 PD this season, which is ranked 33rd.

now im not making this thread to tear him down, or to call him a bad player. hes still young, and has the tools to possibly get alot better and make his game more well rounded. right now, hes a hard hitter, he can knock a ball loose, and he seems to be around the ball alot. whether or not its because he cant cover, im not sure.

but the point is, he was not a pro bowl player this year, not even close. he can stuff the run, he can hit, he can even get after the passer a little bit, but until he improves his AWFUL coverage skills, he will be a liability to this defense. i have faith he can improve his coverage, but by no means should his job be safe.

Claiming he was the worst cover safety in the league this year is just as bad an over-exaggeration as claiming he was a pro-bowler. Certainly, he didn't maintain a pro-bowl level of play throughout the season but he was playing at a pretty high level in the last 4 or 5 games of the season. IMO, he drastically cut down on the poor angles that he was taking in the beginning of the season.

As far as the stats go, I don't think using total yards and targets is the best way to rank a safety. I would say yards/target and QB rating for the targets is a better measure. I'm assuming you got your stats from profootballfocus.com, so here it goes:

yards/target = 12.6 - 25th out of 64 safeties who played more than 550 snaps. (Worst was LaRon Landry at 25.5)
QB rating = 78.8 - 31st out of 64 safeties who played more than 550 snaps. (Worst was Reggie Nelson at 143.1)

I'd hardly say he was the worst cover safety in the league.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=S&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

sort by coverage, and scroll on dowwwwwwn. dont accuse me of just making stuff up if youre going to pull out of your butt that he wasnt the worst just because you dont think so.

Ya, I'm familiar with that site - that's where I got my stats too. That ranking you're talking about is a cumulative rating of every snap they played in the year. So for example, Marvin White of Detroit accumulated a -14.2 coverage rating in only 452 snap. Dashon Goldson accumulated a -14.8 coverage rating in 1108 snaps. You have to look at the rating within the context of how many snaps they played.

You can't honestly say that a guy with a 78.8 QB rating against him is worse than a guy with 143.1 rating can you? I mean, QB's throwing against Reggie Nelson almost have a perfect rating!

Granted, Goldson had poor to average (at best) coverage metrics overall, I won't deny that. I think he was really improving near the end of the year though.

You only accounted for total yards. Which is not a great measure.

Look at Goldson's average per play, and he is far, far better.