Vernon Davis "is the focal point"

I think that K's opinion is that NO TIGHT END is ever worth a top ten pick.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by Chief:
I don't understand where people get the "hands of stone" crap. He dropped about 5 passes and is no where near the top of the list in the NFL. Some of these same people wanted to trade for Braylon Edwards. Anyway, Vernon has given a great deal and has proved himself as a blocker when we ran a Mike Martz offense. His skill set has been underused and has the potential to be a great receiving tightend for the 49ers. In my opinion, the only thing holding him back has been the play book, not him.

Call it the Kwame Harris effect! Kwame harris wasn't as bad as people made him out to be. It's just when he was bad it usually cost us a big play. A big play that 50% of the time wouldn't have happened had he not did what he did. But anyway, alot of Vern's drops are on big plays. Which gets magnified more just like Kwame!

I didn't think of putting it like that, but well put.

From what I've observed, if you absolutely have to have a play, don't put your eggs in the VD basket. He simply is NOT reliable/smart enough to be the go-to guy on this team. And that's what makes the concept of VDavis as the "focal point" so ludicrous.

However, as someone pointed out, Raye said that the TE is the focal point - not necessarily VD. That makes more sense. A smart reliable TE is a natural for that "go-to-guy" role. Maybe the rookie will develop into that role, because others on the team haven't shown that aptitude yet.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by Chief:
I don't understand where people get the "hands of stone" crap. He dropped about 5 passes and is no where near the top of the list in the NFL. Some of these same people wanted to trade for Braylon Edwards. Anyway, Vernon has given a great deal and has proved himself as a blocker when we ran a Mike Martz offense. His skill set has been underused and has the potential to be a great receiving tightend for the 49ers. In my opinion, the only thing holding him back has been the play book, not him.

Call it the Kwame Harris effect! Kwame harris wasn't as bad as people made him out to be. It's just when he was bad it usually cost us a big play. A big play that 50% of the time wouldn't have happened had he not did what he did. But anyway, alot of Vern's drops are on big plays. Which gets magnified more just like Kwame!

Kwame was every bit as bad, and for the very reasons you've delineated! His standout bad plays, ie when he was actually caught, came at the worst possible times and usually cost us big. And they weren't always what allowed the big play. I recall being extremely frustrated that the violation was totally unnecessary BECAUSE they had nothing to do with the success of the play. Whether it was false starts or getting caught holding because he couldn't control his man, Kwame was another disappointing first rounder. I think even the staunchest Vernon supporters must agree he needs to finally "break out" this year or be placed in the Kwame category. No more excuses.

He can be the focal point all he wants, but until he proves otherwise he'll just be a nice blocking tight end! I am not disclosing what he can do next year and hope the best for him. It's just a wait and see until he can show he is the focal point.

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
I think that K's opinion is that NO TIGHT END is ever worth a top ten pick.

Well thanks for explaining, but isn't that a little silly. If any NFL team in the league were given the opportunity to go back and take Tony Gonzalez with a top 10 pick, do you think they would hesitate for even a minute? Maybe Kizray is stuck in the past - the tight end position has been going through changes as a function of constantly improving size and athleticism. There are tight ends now with the speed and moves to change games, just as wide receivers have done in the past. And, I'm guessing you'll see more tight ends going in the top picks in the years to come because guys who play that position are simultaneously getting faster and bigger. Vernon Davis should be the kind of player who, when he catches a ball in space in the flat or out about 10 to 15 yards, can get huge swaths of yardage just with his speed.

Originally posted by BrodieFan:

Originally posted by krizay:


I'm sure you realize that you didn't answer either question.

Sorry you didn't get what you were looking for. But I answered as honestly as I could.

No, you didn't answer the question. Let me re-phrase it for you: what level of performance measured in game results would Davis have to display for you to feel he is a legitimate number one tight end producing at levels one would expect from a top 10 pick. If you can't tell me what would make you happy about the guy, then you're complaints about the guy are just the result of your own personal problem with the player.


I find it funny you want game results as a basis for my opinion. When all of his excuses cover everything but game results!

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
I think that K's opinion is that NO TIGHT END is ever worth a top ten pick.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Serious question for Kizray - as the board's most vocal critic of Vernon Davis, what will it take for you to get off his back? What kind of a season would Davis have to have to make you glad he's the #1 TE on the team?

1st question:
It actually has nothing to do with what numbers he puts up. It has everything to do with how much hype and hope you guys have for him. If you guys would just see him as what he is. An average TE. All would be fine in krizay land. He's nothing special. He doesn't do anything more than most other TE's. Aside from the fact he had a great combine. Which doesn't translate to the field apparently.

Stop the hype, I'll stop the gripe!

2nd question:
If we become a constant playoff team. Then I could care less he's on our team. I keep reading where posters think we're a few players away. In my opinion we missed out on a chance to get one of those players by taking a freakin TE at #6. Now that's not to say who we would took woulda panned out. But atleast we would have attempted to address a greater need than to make a luxury pick. So the simple answer is, when we start winning again.

ah so i think you would like my opinion on him. i have taken the 6th pick out of it. i just now look at him as a player.

and i have bad grammer, sorry.

he is not a premier TE, but he is an all around quality TE. but he is a great blocker, that can make big plays but just needs to learn to go down in many cases(fumbles). i am happy he is the starter and am okay with him being the starter in the future.
he is a s**tty route runner and is useless going deeper than 10yds. now i haven't read aout him slimming down, but if he has that is a good thing, maybe he can improve on these 2 things, but still i don't think can ever be tony gonzales, but i do not know anyone who can compare to him in the trenches with his big play ability.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:

Originally posted by krizay:


I'm sure you realize that you didn't answer either question.

Sorry you didn't get what you were looking for. But I answered as honestly as I could.

No, you didn't answer the question. Let me re-phrase it for you: what level of performance measured in game results would Davis have to display for you to feel he is a legitimate number one tight end producing at levels one would expect from a top 10 pick. If you can't tell me what would make you happy about the guy, then you're complaints about the guy are just the result of your own personal problem with the player.

I find it funny you want game results as a basis for my opinion. When all of his excuses cover everything but game results!
Right. It's a numbers thing, but I don't care about excuses related to past seasons. I'm talking about the coming season and I'm asking what he has to do, in purely game performance-related issues to make you a "believer." Surely, there is something he could do to make you a fan. What if he were leading the league in touchdowns? Would you be glad they picked him then? I'm just trying to get a feel for what would satisfy you as a fan.

Originally posted by NinerNZ:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by Chief:
I don't understand where people get the "hands of stone" crap. He dropped about 5 passes and is no where near the top of the list in the NFL. Some of these same people wanted to trade for Braylon Edwards. Anyway, Vernon has given a great deal and has proved himself as a blocker when we ran a Mike Martz offense. His skill set has been underused and has the potential to be a great receiving tightend for the 49ers. In my opinion, the only thing holding him back has been the play book, not him.

Call it the Kwame Harris effect! Kwame harris wasn't as bad as people made him out to be. It's just when he was bad it usually cost us a big play. A big play that 50% of the time wouldn't have happened had he not did what he did. But anyway, alot of Vern's drops are on big plays. Which gets magnified more just like Kwame!

I didn't think of putting it like that, but well put.

From what I've observed, if you absolutely have to have a play, don't put your eggs in the VD basket. He simply is NOT reliable/smart enough to be the go-to guy on this team. And that's what makes the concept of VDavis as the "focal point" so ludicrous.

However, as someone pointed out, Raye said that the TE is the focal point - not necessarily VD. That makes more sense. A smart reliable TE is a natural for that "go-to-guy" role. Maybe the rookie will develop into that role, because others on the team haven't shown that aptitude yet.

I disagree with you 100% about Vernon Davis. He is by far the best TE on our team, and will have the best career of any TE on our roster. There is no way, any of these guys will be better than Vernon Davis.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
I think that K's opinion is that NO TIGHT END is ever worth a top ten pick.

When you look back on their careers, would you say Tony Gonzalez or Kellen Winslow Sr. wouldn't have merited a top-10 pick. Or to put it another way, if the Chiefs had picked Gonzalez at number 6, would they have gotten quality out of their first round pick?

Originally posted by BrodieFan:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
I think that K's opinion is that NO TIGHT END is ever worth a top ten pick.

Well thanks for explaining, but isn't that a little silly. If any NFL team in the league were given the opportunity to go back and take Tony Gonzalez with a top 10 pick, do you think they would hesitate for even a minute? Maybe Kizray is stuck in the past - the tight end position has been going through changes as a function of constantly improving size and athleticism. There are tight ends now with the speed and moves to change games, just as wide receivers have done in the past. And, I'm guessing you'll see more tight ends going in the top picks in the years to come because guys who play that position are simultaneously getting faster and bigger. Vernon Davis should be the kind of player who, when he catches a ball in space in the flat or out about 10 to 15 yards, can get huge swaths of yardage just with his speed.

i do not think tony goes top 10. neither does shannon sharpe, antonio gates, jeremy shockey, dallas clark, or any other TE for that matter. every single one of those TEs requires a good backup, and that one needs to be a good to great blocker.

and the bigger stronger faster stuff does not matter, everyone is getting bigger stronger faster. and then, when a whole position is growing, and everybody is becoming better, well then what is wong with getting the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best player? afterall they will still be bigger stronger faster then the previous generation.

Originally posted by BrodieFan:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
I think that K's opinion is that NO TIGHT END is ever worth a top ten pick.

When you look back on their careers, would you say Tony Gonzalez or Kellen Winslow Sr. wouldn't have merited a top-10 pick. Or to put it another way, if the Chiefs had picked Gonzalez at number 6, would they have gotten quality out of their first round pick?

Of course they are worth a top 10 pick. Vernon doesn't produce like them tho. What is so hard to understand about that?

Originally posted by jdt84_2:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
I think that K's opinion is that NO TIGHT END is ever worth a top ten pick.

Well thanks for explaining, but isn't that a little silly. If any NFL team in the league were given the opportunity to go back and take Tony Gonzalez with a top 10 pick, do you think they would hesitate for even a minute? Maybe Kizray is stuck in the past - the tight end position has been going through changes as a function of constantly improving size and athleticism. There are tight ends now with the speed and moves to change games, just as wide receivers have done in the past. And, I'm guessing you'll see more tight ends going in the top picks in the years to come because guys who play that position are simultaneously getting faster and bigger. Vernon Davis should be the kind of player who, when he catches a ball in space in the flat or out about 10 to 15 yards, can get huge swaths of yardage just with his speed.

i do not think tony goes top 10. neither does shannon sharpe, antonio gates, jeremy shockey, dallas clark, or any other TE for that matter. every single one of those TEs requires a good backup, and that one needs to be a good to great blocker.

and the bigger stronger faster stuff does not matter, everyone is getting bigger stronger faster. and then, when a whole position is growing, and everybody is becoming better, well then what is wong with getting the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best player? afterall they will still be bigger stronger faster then the previous generation.

No, if you look back over the last four or five decades, the changing physical attributes and abilities of players have led to changes in scheme, strategy, and emphasis on both sides of the ball. That's part of the reason why Al Davis is such a problem for the Raiders.

now fo all you people copmplaining about how he does not run people over, and he is too shifty. he is playing smart, theris nothing wrong with turning or cutting to avoid a body-to-body hit. attack his arms, because nobody is arm tackling VD, then when you are ready to end the run or give up on getting more yards you run over your tackler, make it hurt, have them not want to tackle you next time.