Safety Tony Jefferson

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by elguapo:
You have to understand a few of our fans on this message board will rip on players that are not top 10-15 at their position and then they will stick up for these safeties that aren't even in the top 10 at their position. It's hilarious the hypocrisy that goes on.

They make excuses for not getting interceptions, turnovers, PBU's or even good coverage at times. Aside from our starting safeties not being in the top 10 at their position, they are also often injured. This is another reason why some of the fans on this board contradict themselves. They will rip on players that are injured a lot and both our safeties fit that description to a T. But, they will still stick up for them 🤣Disregard it. Our front office knows better, we know better.

Bottom line is we need better more reliable play from our safeties and we are working toward that by bringing in more depth and competition. We need higher standards set at the safety position in terms of play and availability.

Also, for all of you that want to minimize the lack of turnovers, you do realize that the single most determining factor in winning or losing a game is turnovers???? Not solid coverage some of the time when they're healthy.

And other fans will point out that they simply don't understand what they're asked to do in this scheme and like to stat chase…tartt and Ward are damn good safeties, they do what they're asked to do in this defense. Their man issue is health (more Tartt at this pt) not their play.

There you go again throwing out that same story that we know less or don't understand about what they're asked to do when that is not necessarily the case. Not even close. I watched both safeties film and they have not been that impressive. Not top 10 in my opinion and guess what??? Part of a safety's job is making game changing plays like PBU's or getting turnovers. You obviously have a low standard on safeties (and it seems are quick to make excuses and defend their very unremarkable play) much like some have a lower standard for quarterbacks saying exactly what you say about our safeties. I don't make excuses for Jimmy G or talk about his "role" in our offense to cover up for the plays that were there to make. Believe me, just as you say Jimmy G failed to see this, make a throw, avoid a sack and so on the same EXACT instances happen to both our starting safeties.

Try not to get it twisted and be consistent. They are not damn good safeties. You keep saying they do what they're asked to do? Does that mean not making many good plays at all? Getting to the ball too late? I guess that's what our coach tells them, don't ever make a play and especially don't get an int. You can argue all you want about stat chasing but you have to admit any safety thats told to "do their job" should get more PBU's, make more good plays, cover better and get more than two interceptions in seven years. That's a fact

The same reasons you rip Jimmy Garoppolo are the same reasons you should rip these two safeties. All three players I just mentioned are injury prone (Jimmy G Ward and Tartt) and they are not top 10 at their position. Try to make a better argument than that. You just really can't admit that we do not have very good safeties? You sure as hell admit it when it comes to Jimmy G. Come on. I know you never change your mind and get into it with a lot of other fans that disagree with you but my points are very reasonable. Are they not? Just like your points on Jimmy G. He is a solid qb but we need to upgrade. Same goes for both safeties.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Regardless what they're asked to do, you make it sound like no other Safety can do those things.

No I didn't…all I said is they're asked to do more than what you think. Ward talked about it, if he was given that robber role as a safety he would be able to break on more routes and get INTs. He's playing a ton of man coverage and got something like 2 passing attempts thrown his way past yr (per game).

IMO they're solid S that would be starting on just about every team in the NFL, they're not pro-bowlers but If I had to pick a position that you don't need to pay a ton of money to have a pro-bowler it's safety.

They would not be starting on just about every team in the NFL. Come on. There are so many better safeties and not only that, availability is very very important so that should count against them aside from their "solid" at best play. So many safeties can do what they do and I'm sure they also will make great plays such as PBU's and ints (certainly more than 2 ints in 7 years). Too many times Ward and Tartt are there to make the tackle....wow great job, but late in making a play. Film doesn't lie

Anyways, I'm glad we are getting good depth that may be better players than the safeties that we have in Ward and Tartt.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
They're okay, I think Jefferson could easily replace Tartt.

I don't

Yeah I don't see this happening either

We have loaded up on interior linemen and safeties this offseason. Ryans is scheming up some crazy looking defense.

Originally posted by JustinNiner:
We have loaded up on interior linemen and safeties this offseason. Ryans is scheming up some crazy looking defense.

This. I wish they would've mixed in another cb and edge but they still can I guess

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
This defense has been pretty much Bosa, Buckner, Warner and Sherman. If they really wanted to replace them they easily could, so much better prospects out there than Tartt and Ward.

Tell me what have they done that other Safeties couldn't?? Btw Tony Jefferson pre-injury was much better than Tartt. Its not like teams were knocking each other out of the way to sign them either.

They both play a s**t ton of man coverage, which allows for someone to blitz or Warner to roam around. Not many safeties can lineup vs WRs on 3rd down or TEs but both can… They both are a huge reason SF is great at stopping the deep ball and don't give up a ton of YAC. They're great tacklers and play well vs the run.

Im not saying they're pro-bowlers but they're damn good safeties and do what they're asked to do…they say our scheme has been and what they ask the safeties to do they're never gonna get all those high end stats like INTs. It's simply the truth.

You're fooling yourself if you think Justin Simmons, Anthony Harris and Jon Johnson can't perform the same or better. Saying they're never gonna get those high end stats is a poor excuse to why they're not really the play makers this defense needs to get to the next level and that's being a dominant defense. All dominant defenses have playmakers at Safety.

Originally posted by elguapo:
There you go again throwing out that same story that we know less or don't understand about what they're asked to do when that is not necessarily the case. Not even close. I watched both safeties film and they have not been that impressive. Not top 10 in my opinion and guess what??? Part of a safety's job is making game changing plays like PBU's or getting turnovers. You obviously have a low standard on safeties (and it seems are quick to make excuses and defend their very unremarkable play) much like some have a lower standard for quarterbacks saying exactly what you say about our safeties. I don't make excuses for Jimmy G or talk about his "role" in our offense to cover up for the plays that were there to make. Believe me, just as you say Jimmy G failed to see this, make a throw, avoid a sack and so on the same EXACT instances happen to both our starting safeties.

Try not to get it twisted and be consistent. They are not damn good safeties. You keep saying they do what they're asked to do? Does that mean not making many good plays at all? Getting to the ball too late? I guess that's what our coach tells them, don't ever make a play and especially don't get an int. You can argue all you want about stat chasing but you have to admit any safety thats told to "do their job" should get more PBU's, make more good plays, cover better and get more than two interceptions in seven years. That's a fact

The same reasons you rip Jimmy Garoppolo are the same reasons you should rip these two safeties. All three players I just mentioned are injury prone (Jimmy G Ward and Tartt) and they are not top 10 at their position. Try to make a better argument than that. You just really can't admit that we do not have very good safeties? You sure as hell admit it when it comes to Jimmy G. Come on. I know you never change your mind and get into it with a lot of other fans that disagree with you but my points are very reasonable. Are they not? Just like your points on Jimmy G. He is a solid qb but we need to upgrade. Same goes for both safeties.

Please show me all this film you have and are watching of them not doing what they're asked to do in this scheme?

What does Jimmy have to do with our safeties? Literally just moving goalposts on a completely different subject for no good reason. Jimmy IS limited at what he can do and we see that from the play calls week to week. It's the opposite of what Saleh asked of our safeties....ALSO please show me were I said they're top 10? I most certainly didn't. I'll I've said is this fan base for the most part doesn't appreciate what these guys bring to the table...a bunch of fans are stat evaluators and we see that when debating how amazing Jimmy was in 2019.

I've gotten pissed with them more in part because they can't stay on the field vs their actual play. We see what happens when we lose one or both of them. Sherm talks about how important both guys are to this defense, guess he's in idiot too?

SF has two safeties that are athletic enough to play man coverage vs WR/TE/RBs all game, either can play deep single-high, you can throw them in the slot, or as dime/box safeties....they're so multiple, how is that a bad thing? They allow this defense to be creative in blitz packages and are one of the main reasons we kick ass at stopping defenses on the deep ball. They take great angles, are sound tacklers and can blitz well.

Neither are year in and year our pro-bowlers and they don't get to roam around and take the ball away all game like some safeties (not playing that robber roll where you can break on passes to get INTs) so they won't get the love (clearly based on your opinion) BUT are good at what WE need them to do. I'll bet money guys like THL & Jonny who watch the film will agree, they're far from bad safeties like you keep saying.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
You're fooling yourself if you think Justin Simmons, Anthony Harris and Jon Johnson can't perform the same or better. Saying they're never gonna get those high end stats is a poor excuse to why they're not really the play makers this defense needs to get to the next level and that's being a dominant defense. All dominant defenses have playmakers at Safety.

LOL where did I say either guy was better than 2 of the best safeties in the game? All I've said is a lot of this fan base looks at stats and doesn't get what some of these guys do that makes everyone better, the roles they're asked to do.

When you play a ton of man coverage or at the LOS you're not gonna get a ton of INTS. That's just the truth of it. The robber role as a S allows guys to break on passes and fool the QB to get those INTs. For the most part Saleh didn't ask our S to do this. Having a guy that was athletic enough to play man on WR/TE/RBs was more important.

As far as you're last sentence....so you're telling me SF didn't have a dominant defense in 2019 with Tartt/Ward?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
You're fooling yourself if you think Justin Simmons, Anthony Harris and Jon Johnson can't perform the same or better. Saying they're never gonna get those high end stats is a poor excuse to why they're not really the play makers this defense needs to get to the next level and that's being a dominant defense. All dominant defenses have playmakers at Safety.

LOL where did I say either guy was better than 2 of the best safeties in the game? All I've said is a lot of this fan base looks at stats and doesn't get what some of these guys do that makes everyone better, the roles they're asked to do.

When you play a ton of man coverage or at the LOS you're not gonna get a ton of INTS. That's just the truth of it. The robber role as a S allows guys to break on passes and fool the QB to get those INTs. For the most part Saleh didn't ask our S to do this. Having a guy that was athletic enough to play man on WR/TE/RBs was more important.

As far as you're last sentence....so you're telling me SF didn't have a dominant defense in 2019 with Tartt/Ward?

I didn't say either guy was better, I'm saying you're fooling yourself if you think the above mentioned couldn't perform the same or better.

I get it, they play a ton of man coverage but you're telling me that excuse is why they can't just get one INT to help the offense get back on the field, ONE!!!! I'm mostly talking about Ward since he's been the healthiest.

Sure 2019 was a dominant defense (again because of Bosa, Warner and Buckner), but don't tell me they couldn't have used a few takeaways that season by their Safeties.

Can I ask you something, was the 2019 and 2020 defense similar or the same to Seattle's legion of boom??

Originally posted by elguapo:
They would not be starting on just about every team in the NFL. Come on. There are so many better safeties and not only that, availability is very very important so that should count against them aside from their "solid" at best play. So many safeties can do what they do and I'm sure they also will make great plays such as PBU's and ints (certainly more than 2 ints in 7 years). Too many times Ward and Tartt are there to make the tackle....wow great job, but late in making a play. Film doesn't lie

Anyways, I'm glad we are getting good depth that may be better players than the safeties that we have in Ward and Tartt.

Yes they would be, so if it's all about INTs for you....you must think Jamal Adams is trash? 2 INTs in his career just a horrible safety. Budda Baker 2 career INTs awful safety. Landon Collins 3 INTs in the past 4 yrs.

Some guys are given a opportunity to make plays on the ball more within the scheme that they play.

I wouldn't be shocked if they draft someone high next yr just because I don't think they will pay both safeties and Ward is already on the books.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by elguapo:
They would not be starting on just about every team in the NFL. Come on. There are so many better safeties and not only that, availability is very very important so that should count against them aside from their "solid" at best play. So many safeties can do what they do and I'm sure they also will make great plays such as PBU's and ints (certainly more than 2 ints in 7 years). Too many times Ward and Tartt are there to make the tackle....wow great job, but late in making a play. Film doesn't lie

Anyways, I'm glad we are getting good depth that may be better players than the safeties that we have in Ward and Tartt.

Yes they would be, so if it's all about INTs for you....you must think Jamal Adams is trash? 2 INTs in his career just a horrible safety. Budda Baker 2 career INTs awful safety. Landon Collins 3 INTs in the past 4 yrs.

Some guys are given a opportunity to make plays on the ball more within the scheme that they play.

I wouldn't be shocked if they draft someone high next yr just because I don't think they will pay both safeties and Ward is already on the books.

Adams was dominant from the start, forcing fumbles, sacking the QB 5.5 his first two years, along with two picks in the following two. Seriously for Seattle 9.5 sacks are you fricking kidding me. 21.5 sacks in four seasons, I think it's safe to say two picks doesn't tell the whole story compared to the conservative two on the 9ers. Now I get the reason why Adams doesn't have big INT numbers, still wondering about the other two.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
I didn't say either guy was better, I'm saying you're fooling yourself if you think the above mentioned couldn't perform the same or better.

I get it, they play a ton of man coverage but you're telling me that excuse is why they can't just get one INT to help the offense get back on the field, ONE!!!! I'm mostly talking about Ward since he's been the healthiest.

Sure 2019 was a dominant defense (again because of Bosa, Warner and Buckner), but don't tell me they couldn't have used a few takeaways that season by their Safeties.

Can I ask you something, was the 2019 and 2020 defense similar or the same to Seattle's legion of boom??

Never said they wouldn't...Simmons just got paid $60M for a reason. IMO if there's a position you don't need an all-pro at it's safety.

I mean you have to throw the ball at them when in man coverage, they're not roaming all over the field snap to snap like some other guys are. I think Ward had like around 2 passing attempts thrown his way per game last yr per PFF.

You said a dominant defense always has a safety that takes away the ball...well that's simply not true in 2019. They allowed guys like Warner/K Williams to blitz and put pressure on the QB. They helped the whole defense play faster. We'd all love an Ed Reed FS running around picking off every pass...this scheme for the most part is simply asking them to do a ton of stuff that doesn't get noticed in the stat sheet.

From 2018 to 2019 we used more quarter/C4 coverage (up 20% and blitzed more).

https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/nfl-defense-2019-quarters-cover-4-san-francisco-49ers

No defense in the league this season has used Cover 4 more than the San Francisco 49ers, who are tied with the Carolina Panthers for most pass snaps with the coverage. If teams want to see what the best-case scenario is while using Quarters, they should look no further than San Francisco.

The 49ers have allowed a league-low 54.6% completion rate with Cover 4 and have allowed just 5.31 yards per attempt. San Francisco's defense has also seen a boost in the pass rush with Quarters — a 13.8% sack rate and a 39.6% pressure rate, both above the already impressive overall numbers of a 11.6% sack rate and 30.4% pressure rate on all plays.

San Francisco isn't just passively playing back in zone coverage and often their use of Cover 4 is disguised as Cover 3 before the snap. That typically asks one of the defensive backs to aggressively drop back pre-snap and asks a lot of the secondary to communicate but with the likes of Richard Sherman, Ahkello Whitherspoon, Jaquiski Tartt, and Jimmie Ward in the backfield, that has not been an issue. As is the case with many schemes, having the players who can execute it at a high level can be just as, if not more, important. San Francisco certainly has that.

Last week, the 49ers used this against Kyler Murray and the Arizona Cardinals. San Francisco initially showed an 8-man box against Arizona's two-back backfield with a tight end in the wing, but before the snap, both Tartt, who was in the box, and Sherman to the offense's right bailed back. The coverage held the two deep routes in front of the defenders and with pressure, Murray was forced to leave the pocket and throw a contested short pass that was broken up.

Here is a clip of that play

The #49ers used the most Cover-4 in the league in 2019 and it unlocked their defense.

- allowed a league-low 54.8% comp.
- allowed only 5.31 Y/A
- Sack Rate went from 11.6% to 13.8%
- Pressure Rate went from 30.4% to 39.6%.

Here's how Tartt/Ward/Sherman/Moseley played it: https://t.co/aiza15An6S pic.twitter.com/c2mY6q3jqR

— Akash Anavarathan (@akashanav) June 18, 2020

One of the appeals of Quarters coverage is that it typically shuts down deep passes and keeps the ball in front of the deep defenders. That is arguably the biggest strength of the 49ers' version of the coverage this season. Just eight passes at least 20 yards in the air have been attempted against San Francisco when the Niners have been in Cover 4 this season and none of them have been completed. That's a boost for a defense that has relative struggled against the deep ball this season. Per Football Outsiders, the 49ers rank first in DVOA against short passes but just 14th against deep passes.

The pre-snap disguise also makes the opposing offense hesitate just for a moment to identify the coverage, which is more than long enough for San Francisco's pass rush to breakthrough. The pre-snap to post-snap shift was something that made the Patriots' use of Quarters so effective in the Super Bowl against the Rams.

We don't really play the same type of defense as the LOB who were straight up C3....I'm not very great with x's and o's and I'm sure THL will touch on everything at some point.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Adams was dominant from the start, forcing fumbles, sacking the QB 5.5 his first two years, along with two picks in the following two. Seriously for Seattle 9.5 sacks are you fricking kidding me. 21.5 sacks in four seasons, I think it's safe to say two picks doesn't tell the whole story compared to the conservative two on the 9ers. Now I get the reason why Adams doesn't have big INT numbers, still wondering about the other two.

Dude has 2 career INTs. You and elguapo are complaining about INTs....

Why do you think he get's sacks? maybe because of how they use him? Seattle has manufactured opportunities for him to do this...he blitz over 80 times last yr! literally they had him blitzing right around 10x per game which NEVER happens for a DB.

When you use a S as a glorified pass rusher, you have to throw someone else back into coverage (like a DL) and that can blowup a defensive play just as bad...happened to Seattle quite a bit.

Again when you're playing a ton of man coverage as a safety (or up on the LOS) you're not gonna get a ton of INTs. Maybe if SF blitzed Tartt 10x a game he'd have more sacks.

Said this in the draft forum safeties have a minimal impact on a game and are not valued by this Front office. It's sucks but it makes sense. If you think Ward and Tartt are gonna get replaced by a street free agent and a 5th round pick that's a hell of a leap. Hopefully with a new DC he will put our guys in a more advantageous positions. But if they just continue not giving up huge plays I'll be happy it's not like this team was lacking in the turnover category last season.

Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Said this in the draft forum safeties have a minimal impact on a game and are not valued by this Front office. It's sucks but it makes sense. If you think Ward and Tartt are gonna get replaced by a street free agent and a 5th round pick that's a hell of a leap. Hopefully with a new DC he will put our guys in a more advantageous positions. But if they just continue not giving up huge plays I'll be happy it's not like this team was lacking in the turnover category last season.