Originally posted by Waterbear:
This. If Trey has any future with us, he needs to be able to run our offense.
I'm way more disappointed with his play, and the play of the OL, than I am the preseason play calling.
Maybe you need to look at your own exceptions for a guy who hast played meaningful football since September.
Yeah I don't think my expectations were that high... at all. I wasn't mad at the first sack, because like someone said, it probably would have been picked.
Trey has to be better and he knows it.
My expectations were low and I was still disappointed.
Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I said this yesterday and want to reiterate. Its clear that the game hasnt slowed down for him yet. I think the more and more he plays, the more it will. You could already see improvement in the 2nd quarter from the 1st.
Will Trey ever get the playing time needed to develop here? Probably not....or dare I say hopefully not? Regardless, my opinion on him hasnt changed a bit after yesterday. I still have no idea if he is going to be good or not. And honestly, no one else on this board does either.
He could be good but needs at least two more years of development.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Welp, I re-watched all the Trey Lance passes. First couple of series he was RUSty! Yuk. Yeah he didn't have the greatest OLine protection either. But the latter throws were pretty good. Clearly he needs more reps, but as QB2 he's not going to get starter reps that he needs to progress faster. His progress will be slow - but there has been progress that I can see. I think the latter half of the passes he threw were more of a realistic place where he is right now versus the first couple of passes. He did progress and settle down, after those first couple of sacks.
Criticisms - he's still taking too much time reading the defenses. That needs to improve. He doesn't have the short area burst that Brock has to get away from defenders. Those short passes are still getting away from him.
Positives - better mechanics, when he does see the window - great arm to get it there, and good placement and accuracy to get it there. He eventually threw some completed short passes and he definitely has better touch that his first year on those short throws. When he correctly recognizes the pocket is collapsing, he does have the mobility to move out and throw on the run.
I wouldn't put much stock in his first game performance after being injured, and he is still raw as heck for his career. He's only played 4+ games in his entire career in the NFL. If he stays healthy and continues to improve, like in the latter half of his throws - he'll be good. I'll want to see more improvement in his second game. I want him to start off strong in his second game next week. Hopefully I'll see less of the deer in the headlights stuff. If his mental side improves, we'll have a good QB. If not, obviously, he won't be here long.
Good points. He looked better as the game went on so that's a trend that continued, and a good sign for a young QB. Watching it live yesterday, I forgot that he isn't going to flip a switch and be accustomed to game speed, even if it was second string defense game speed. He needed to reacquaint himself to facing live bullets and although it took three drives, it did look better towards the end of the first half. He'll need to take baby steps.
I agree with everything you said. With what we've seen so far (and that's not a lot) it seems clear that Lance isn't comfortable taking a 2 step drop and throwing from the pocket. For what ever reason that's just not what he does well at this point. He may never be able to do it well. On the other hand he does seem to throw better when he rolls out so why don't they roll out more. His speed is clearly much better than his quickness which is one reason he's getting caught in the pocket.
Unfortunately most of Kyle's offense is built around the running game and short quick passes. At least that's what we've see for the past few years. Purdy, JG and Mullens were all pocket passer with limited mobility. The only QB that Kyle's had other than Lance that had mobility and a strong arm was Beathard and we know how that ended up.
But wasn't the argument strongly made for taking Lance over the other available QBs like Fields, was that Lance played in a pro style offense under center that has some of the same concepts that Kyle Shanahan uses? All we read and heard was Trey Lance would be the most pro ready QB to have success, more so than Fields. Bottom line is Trey Lance does not deserve to have excuses made for him at this point. That is not a knock on him just truth. His failures ultimately lies with York, Lynch, Peters, and Shanahan for tripping over themselves wanting to take a guy that really was not a fit for a Super Bowl contender.
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Seemed alot of play action calls before even establishing the run...defense were all over the offense. Didn't fall for the roll out.
That approach with backup offensive personnel.
Does PA even work anymore? It seems teams just ignore it and rush now so our QB's are unprotected running for their lives going back to late last season and the playoffs. Honest question.
I noticed that as well. The backside defenders don't ever bite on the PA anymore. They just go right after our QB on the naked boot. Could it because we call it way too often or is there a tell that we are passing it instead of running it?
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Seemed alot of play action calls before even establishing the run...defense were all over the offense. Didn't fall for the roll out.
That approach with backup offensive personnel.
Does PA even work anymore? It seems teams just ignore it and rush now so our QB's are unprotected running for their lives going back to late last season and the playoffs. Honest question.
I noticed that as well. The backside defenders don't ever bite on the PA anymore. They just go right after our QB on the naked boot. Could it because we call it way too often or is there a tell that we are passing it instead of running it?
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Seemed alot of play action calls before even establishing the run...defense were all over the offense. Didn't fall for the roll out.
That approach with backup offensive personnel.
Does PA even work anymore? It seems teams just ignore it and rush now so our QB's are unprotected running for their lives going back to late last season and the playoffs. Honest question.
I noticed that as well. The backside defenders don't ever bite on the PA anymore. They just go right after our QB on the naked boot. Could it because we call it way too often or is there a tell that we are passing it instead of running it?
Originally posted by Giedi:
Welp, I re-watched all the Trey Lance passes. First couple of series he was RUSty! Yuk. Yeah he didn't have the greatest OLine protection either. But the latter throws were pretty good. Clearly he needs more reps, but as QB2 he's not going to get starter reps that he needs to progress faster. His progress will be slow - but there has been progress that I can see. I think the latter half of the passes he threw were more of a realistic place where he is right now versus the first couple of passes. He did progress and settle down, after those first couple of sacks.
Criticisms - he's still taking too much time reading the defenses. That needs to improve. He doesn't have the short area burst that Brock has to get away from defenders. Those short passes are still getting away from him.
Positives - better mechanics, when he does see the window - great arm to get it there, and good placement and accuracy to get it there. He eventually threw some completed short passes and he definitely has better touch that his first year on those short throws. When he correctly recognizes the pocket is collapsing, he does have the mobility to move out and throw on the run.
I wouldn't put much stock in his first game performance after being injured, and he is still raw as heck for his career. He's only played 4+ games in his entire career in the NFL. If he stays healthy and continues to improve, like in the latter half of his throws - he'll be good. I'll want to see more improvement in his second game. I want him to start off strong in his second game next week. Hopefully I'll see less of the deer in the headlights stuff. If his mental side improves, we'll have a good QB. If not, obviously, he won't be here long.
Good points. He looked better as the game went on so that's a trend that continued, and a good sign for a young QB. Watching it live yesterday, I forgot that he isn't going to flip a switch and be accustomed to game speed, even if it was second string defense game speed. He needed to reacquaint himself to facing live bullets and although it took three drives, it did look better towards the end of the first half. He'll need to take baby steps.
I agree with everything you said. With what we've seen so far (and that's not a lot) it seems clear that Lance isn't comfortable taking a 2 step drop and throwing from the pocket. For what ever reason that's just not what he does well at this point. He may never be able to do it well. On the other hand he does seem to throw better when he rolls out so why don't they roll out more. His speed is clearly much better than his quickness which is one reason he's getting caught in the pocket.
Unfortunately most of Kyle's offense is built around the running game and short quick passes. At least that's what we've see for the past few years. Purdy, JG and Mullens were all pocket passer with limited mobility. The only QB that Kyle's had other than Lance that had mobility and a strong arm was Beathard and we know how that ended up.
But wasn't the argument strongly made for taking Lance over the other available QBs like Fields, was that Lance played in a pro style offense under center that has some of the same concepts that Kyle Shanahan uses? All we read and heard was Trey Lance would be the most pro ready QB to have success, more so than Fields. Bottom line is Trey Lance does not deserve to have excuses made for him at this point. That is not a knock on him just truth. His failures ultimately lies with York, Lynch, Peters, and Shanahan for tripping over themselves wanting to take a guy that really was not a fit for a Super Bowl contender.
Yes we did hear tht but he wasn't facing pro defenses. They get on you much quicker in the NFL.
Holy Smokes.. there's one play where 3 Olinemen are blocking air standing by themselves, where as a free person runs right past one of them.. without that OT noticing him.
That was a play where I got on Trey for not committing to running with the ball and allowing a defender to catch up to him. He actually had no chance there.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Welp, I re-watched all the Trey Lance passes. First couple of series he was RUSty! Yuk. Yeah he didn't have the greatest OLine protection either. But the latter throws were pretty good. Clearly he needs more reps, but as QB2 he's not going to get starter reps that he needs to progress faster. His progress will be slow - but there has been progress that I can see. I think the latter half of the passes he threw were more of a realistic place where he is right now versus the first couple of passes. He did progress and settle down, after those first couple of sacks.
Criticisms - he's still taking too much time reading the defenses. That needs to improve. He doesn't have the short area burst that Brock has to get away from defenders. Those short passes are still getting away from him.
Positives - better mechanics, when he does see the window - great arm to get it there, and good placement and accuracy to get it there. He eventually threw some completed short passes and he definitely has better touch that his first year on those short throws. When he correctly recognizes the pocket is collapsing, he does have the mobility to move out and throw on the run.
I wouldn't put much stock in his first game performance after being injured, and he is still raw as heck for his career. He's only played 4+ games in his entire career in the NFL. If he stays healthy and continues to improve, like in the latter half of his throws - he'll be good. I'll want to see more improvement in his second game. I want him to start off strong in his second game next week. Hopefully I'll see less of the deer in the headlights stuff. If his mental side improves, we'll have a good QB. If not, obviously, he won't be here long.
Good points. He looked better as the game went on so that's a trend that continued, and a good sign for a young QB. Watching it live yesterday, I forgot that he isn't going to flip a switch and be accustomed to game speed, even if it was second string defense game speed. He needed to reacquaint himself to facing live bullets and although it took three drives, it did look better towards the end of the first half. He'll need to take baby steps.
I agree with everything you said. With what we've seen so far (and that's not a lot) it seems clear that Lance isn't comfortable taking a 2 step drop and throwing from the pocket. For what ever reason that's just not what he does well at this point. He may never be able to do it well. On the other hand he does seem to throw better when he rolls out so why don't they roll out more. His speed is clearly much better than his quickness which is one reason he's getting caught in the pocket.
Unfortunately most of Kyle's offense is built around the running game and short quick passes. At least that's what we've see for the past few years. Purdy, JG and Mullens were all pocket passer with limited mobility. The only QB that Kyle's had other than Lance that had mobility and a strong arm was Beathard and we know how that ended up.
But wasn't the argument strongly made for taking Lance over the other available QBs like Fields, was that Lance played in a pro style offense under center that has some of the same concepts that Kyle Shanahan uses? All we read and heard was Trey Lance would be the most pro ready QB to have success, more so than Fields. Bottom line is Trey Lance does not deserve to have excuses made for him at this point. That is not a knock on him just truth. His failures ultimately lies with York, Lynch, Peters, and Shanahan for tripping over themselves wanting to take a guy that really was not a fit for a Super Bowl contender.
I never bought into the "he's the most pro ready" talk. I believe the justification in him supposedly being pro ready was that he called his own pass protection and that he had snaps under center - that's not much imo. When it comes to the same concepts that Kyle uses, I did not see it. Was that in reference to playaction from under center then hitting an intermediate throw? Again, a small part of the offense. Had he truly been "pro ready" he would have operated an offense that had a myriad of formations, rhythm throws, been in high pressure game situations (two minute drives), things like that are what I'd consider being 'pro ready'. Instead, he was in a run heavy, playaction heavy offense that used him as a run threat.
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Seemed alot of play action calls before even establishing the run...defense were all over the offense. Didn't fall for the roll out.
That approach with backup offensive personnel.
Does PA even work anymore? It seems teams just ignore it and rush now so our QB's are unprotected running for their lives going back to late last season and the playoffs. Honest question.
Personally, I don't understand Kyle bothers opening the game up with PA. They should be pounding the rock for three quarters. They are not really respecting the run game.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Welp, I re-watched all the Trey Lance passes. First couple of series he was RUSty! Yuk. Yeah he didn't have the greatest OLine protection either. But the latter throws were pretty good. Clearly he needs more reps, but as QB2 he's not going to get starter reps that he needs to progress faster. His progress will be slow - but there has been progress that I can see. I think the latter half of the passes he threw were more of a realistic place where he is right now versus the first couple of passes. He did progress and settle down, after those first couple of sacks.
Criticisms - he's still taking too much time reading the defenses. That needs to improve. He doesn't have the short area burst that Brock has to get away from defenders. Those short passes are still getting away from him.
Positives - better mechanics, when he does see the window - great arm to get it there, and good placement and accuracy to get it there. He eventually threw some completed short passes and he definitely has better touch that his first year on those short throws. When he correctly recognizes the pocket is collapsing, he does have the mobility to move out and throw on the run.
I wouldn't put much stock in his first game performance after being injured, and he is still raw as heck for his career. He's only played 4+ games in his entire career in the NFL. If he stays healthy and continues to improve, like in the latter half of his throws - he'll be good. I'll want to see more improvement in his second game. I want him to start off strong in his second game next week. Hopefully I'll see less of the deer in the headlights stuff. If his mental side improves, we'll have a good QB. If not, obviously, he won't be here long.
Good points. He looked better as the game went on so that's a trend that continued, and a good sign for a young QB. Watching it live yesterday, I forgot that he isn't going to flip a switch and be accustomed to game speed, even if it was second string defense game speed. He needed to reacquaint himself to facing live bullets and although it took three drives, it did look better towards the end of the first half. He'll need to take baby steps.
I agree with everything you said. With what we've seen so far (and that's not a lot) it seems clear that Lance isn't comfortable taking a 2 step drop and throwing from the pocket. For what ever reason that's just not what he does well at this point. He may never be able to do it well. On the other hand he does seem to throw better when he rolls out so why don't they roll out more. His speed is clearly much better than his quickness which is one reason he's getting caught in the pocket.
Unfortunately most of Kyle's offense is built around the running game and short quick passes. At least that's what we've see for the past few years. Purdy, JG and Mullens were all pocket passer with limited mobility. The only QB that Kyle's had other than Lance that had mobility and a strong arm was Beathard and we know how that ended up.
But wasn't the argument strongly made for taking Lance over the other available QBs like Fields, was that Lance played in a pro style offense under center that has some of the same concepts that Kyle Shanahan uses? All we read and heard was Trey Lance would be the most pro ready QB to have success, more so than Fields. Bottom line is Trey Lance does not deserve to have excuses made for him at this point. That is not a knock on him just truth. His failures ultimately lies with York, Lynch, Peters, and Shanahan for tripping over themselves wanting to take a guy that really was not a fit for a Super Bowl contender.
Yes we did hear tht but he wasn't facing pro defenses. They get on you much quicker in the NFL.
Fields has been okay. Much better ball carrier than passer. No other QB in that draft class has been all that good except for Lawrence and we had zero chance to select him. The FO knew they had to move on from Jimmy and they saw the next couple of years of draft prospects at the position and thought we are picking in the top half of the first round in that current draft so lets pull the trigger on the guy we think fits the best.
[ Edited by YACBros85 on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:31 AM ]
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Seemed alot of play action calls before even establishing the run...defense were all over the offense. Didn't fall for the roll out.
That approach with backup offensive personnel.
Does PA even work anymore? It seems teams just ignore it and rush now so our QB's are unprotected running for their lives going back to late last season and the playoffs. Honest question.
I noticed that as well. The backside defenders don't ever bite on the PA anymore. They just go right after our QB on the naked boot. Could it because we call it way too often or is there a tell that we are passing it instead of running it?
After years and years of being abused by the Shanahan's bootleg action, I think Defensive Coordinators just ask their edge rushers to not care at all about the run game if it's not coming on their side. They ask them to be QB spy essentially.
If the Niners are really running, then maybe they will win 10, 15 yards on the ground, maybe less. If it's really a play action, the Edge Rusher has a duel with the QB totally unprotected. Remember Purdy's play against the Buccaneers. If it's Jimmy and not Brock, Joe Tryon would have crushed him.
I don't know if there's a counter for it or not but defenses adjusted for a while now on that bootleg action.
Originally posted by Ensatsu:
Personally, I don't understand Kyle bothers opening the game up with PA. They should be pounding the rock for three quarters. They are not really respecting the run game.
"WTF Why is Kyle pounding the rock? This is Trey's chance to get reps and throw the ball!!"
"Wow, Why is Kyle leaving Trey out to dry by forcing him to throw? Run the ball!!"
He would be a lot more believable if he wasn't contradicting himself while making his points. I'm sure someone probably already put the clip up of him being on McAfee's show but I'm a few pages behind so I'm responding here.
He brings up the first play for Lance and talks about how Trey needs to let it rip and that Kyle will draw up things that are open. Even McAfee kind of called him on his BS on air. This was not the play to use for his point.
He wants Trey to throw this. That's a pick 6 or incompletion if he throws it. MAYBE if he launches it then it's a completion MAYBE. The risk here is absolutely not worth it. He looks off of it and promptly gets hit in the head(with no call btw but that happened a few times yesterday)
Then Orlovsky contradicts himself further saying the corner was sitting on the route...after claiming Kyle gets his reads open.
This is why these guys are hard to take seriously, especially when he was a terrible QB himself.
There were definitely plays to show where Lance looked hesitant but have a well thought out point, proper examples and don't contradict yourself so people can take you seriously.
Yet you just think he's right because it's knocking Trey and saying he can't play in this offense.
Originally posted by Ensatsu:
Personally, I don't understand Kyle bothers opening the game up with PA. They should be pounding the rock for three quarters. They are not really respecting the run game.
"WTF Why is Kyle pounding the rock? This is Trey's chance to get reps and throw the ball!!"
"Wow, Why is Kyle leaving Trey out to dry by forcing him to throw? Run the ball!!"
Lmao this fanbase
I'm just talking about in general. Not from this game. I understand why they gave Trey a lot of pass plays. He needs to work on those short throws.
