Los Angeles Chargers QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by krizay:
And here we go again. Another poster on the wrong side of the fence screaming posters want to be right about Lance.

The only fans WANTING to be right are the ones who have yet to be right. Who keeps clinging to this hope that this mythical ceiling can be reached.

If he even comes close to this mythical ceiling guess what he becomes? Brock Purdy! Purdy is playing EXACTLY how guys thought Tret would.

The people on the opposite side of the fence as you don't WANT to be right. You and others an follow your blind faith all you want. Just don't expect others to follow it with you.

He was the same QB in 2022 as he was in 2019. This training camp we're going to read the same struggles we read last year. But you guys won't look at that. Keep talking about how little we have to go off of. Yet all we are allowed to go off of is a quarter and a half of the Texans game.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I've tried to explain this before but my issue with a lot of these negative posts about Trey is more about the hypocritical framing and context around the poster(not necessarily you tankle), because I'm indifferent about their stance on Trey itself.

It's the framing and excuses that's allotted to their favorite QB, just not Trey. Whether that's the help of an elite defense, our elite offensive weapons, injuries, playing against bad teams, turning the ball over, not having reps with the first team offense, or Kyle Shanahan's play calling, they've all been used to shame Trey but most apply to Jimmy and Purdy as well.

We're extrapolating 3 games as if Trey's played for a decade. It makes absolutely no sense to me to make any definitive claim or be so confident in any prediction about his game so far. It appears a lot of posters want to be RIGHT about Lance, and the success of him is secondary or not desired at all due to spite.

And here we go again. Another poster on the wrong side of the fence screaming posters want to be right about Lance.

The only fans WANTING to be right are the ones who have yet to be right. Who keeps clinging to this hope that this mythical ceiling can be reached.

If he even comes close to this mythical ceiling guess what he becomes? Brock Purdy! Purdy is playing EXACTLY how guys thought Tret would.

The people on the opposite side of the fence as you don't WANT to be right. You and others an follow your blind faith all you want. Just don't expect others to follow it with you.

He was the same QB in 2022 as he was in 2019. This training camp we're going to read the same struggles we read last year. But you guys won't look at that. Keep talking about how little we have to go off of. Yet all we are allowed to go off of is a quarter and a half of the Texans game.

I refuse to dog Brock when propping up Trey but this is wrong.

Purdy surprised me with his mobility for sure but he still doesn't bring the same level to the running game as Trey does. So that mythical ceiling if you want to go there is still higher with Trey. Especially when you compare the experience between both. Brock's arm while decent isn't going to scare teams deep and I pray he's back 100% so there isn't any impact on his solid but unspectacular arm.

Trey's arm is in another level so if his mechanics clean up and he's able to run the offense as well as Brock his arm and his legs with his size make him a better QB.

This is not a Peyton Manning vs Ryan Leaf situation where one guy is a lazy dum dum with better athletic tools.

Originally posted by genus49:
I refuse to dog Brock when propping up Trey but this is wrong.

Purdy surprised me with his mobility for sure but he still doesn't bring the same level to the running game as Trey does. So that mythical ceiling if you want to go there is still higher with Trey. Especially when you compare the experience between both. Brock's arm while decent isn't going to scare teams deep and I pray he's back 100% so there isn't any impact on his solid but unspectacular arm.

Trey's arm is in another level so if his mechanics clean up and he's able to run the offense as well as Brock his arm and his legs with his size make him a better QB.

This is not a Peyton Manning vs Ryan Leaf situation where one guy is a lazy dum dum with better athletic tools.

No doubt TL can improve, I would say Sam also on an actual good team, can surprise to the upside as well. Sam & TL it's a lot of draft capital invested in both, for reasons.

Originally posted by genus49:
I refuse to dog Brock when propping up Trey but this is wrong.

Purdy surprised me with his mobility for sure but he still doesn't bring the same level to the running game as Trey does. So that mythical ceiling if you want to go there is still higher with Trey. Especially when you compare the experience between both. Brock's arm while decent isn't going to scare teams deep and I pray he's back 100% so there isn't any impact on his solid but unspectacular arm.

Trey's arm is in another level so if his mechanics clean up and he's able to run the offense as well as Brock his arm and his legs with his size make him a better QB.

This is not a Peyton Manning vs Ryan Leaf situation where one guy is a lazy dum dum with better athletic tools.

He clearly doesn't need to scare teams deep. Like did you not watch what he did last year? There is no projection with Brock. We already seen it. Though elbow surgery legit concern.

If his mechanics clean up? 3 years! Threw for 20 straight months. Yet we are still talking mechanics. You don't need game reps to clear up mechanics.

I agree with you on the "lazy dum dum" part. He does seem like a smart kid dude seems like an amazing young man. But trying to learn the BASICS of QB on the fly in the NFL. This is why I can't follow blindly.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I've tried to explain this before but my issue with a lot of these negative posts about Trey is more about the hypocritical framing and context around the poster(not necessarily you tankle), because I'm indifferent about their stance on Trey itself.

It's the framing and excuses that's allotted to their favorite QB, just not Trey. Whether that's the help of an elite defense, our elite offensive weapons, injuries, playing against bad teams, turning the ball over, not having reps with the first team offense, or Kyle Shanahan's play calling, they've all been used to shame Trey but most apply to Jimmy and Purdy as well.

We're extrapolating 3 games as if Trey's played for a decade. It makes absolutely no sense to me to make any definitive claim or be so confident in any prediction about his game so far. It appears a lot of posters want to be RIGHT about Lance, and the success of him is secondary or not desired at all due to spite.

And here we go again. Another poster on the wrong side of the fence screaming posters want to be right about Lance.

The only fans WANTING to be right are the ones who have yet to be right. Who keeps clinging to this hope that this mythical ceiling can be reached.

If he even comes close to this mythical ceiling guess what he becomes? Brock Purdy! Purdy is playing EXACTLY how guys thought Tret would.

The people on the opposite side of the fence as you don't WANT to be right. You and others an follow your blind faith all you want. Just don't expect others to follow it with you.

He was the same QB in 2022 as he was in 2019. This training camp we're going to read the same struggles we read last year. But you guys won't look at that. Keep talking about how little we have to go off of. Yet all we are allowed to go off of is a quarter and a half of the Texans game.

You couldn't be more wrong Krizay.

I've never made definitive claims about Trey, yet you've seen countless definitive claims about Trey in this thread and they're mostly negative. I know you didn't like him coming out of the draft, but you can't ignore the content of this thread based on your preconceived notions.

I've argued against posters saying Trey would outperform Jimmy his rookie season, just as much as I argued against the idea that starting Trey his rookie year would have resulted in a losing season.

I criticized people who mocked Jimmy after his injury, and I criticized people who mocked Trey in week 2. (I've yet to see anyone mock Purdy like they did to Jimmy and Trey).

It makes no difference to me who we have as our QB1, as long as I feel they're capable of being an elite player. With the emergence of Brock Purdy, there's no reason for me to push a pro Trey narrative other than to continue to be objective and fair to any QB with 3 complete starts. But I'm not defending Trey because I want to be right about him, I've been wrong about many prospects and have been honest about all of them.

You also prove my point, claiming Trey is the same as he was in 2019… based off a 3 game sample size. This is a definitive claim that holds little weight.

All three complete games Trey's played are talked about regularly, to act like people aren't using the Arizona and Chicago games to back up their belief that Trey isn't good is disingenuous at best.

If the conversation is who to start, Purdy or Trey, I've repeatedly said I don't mind people saying Trey has proved nothing in comparison. But if the conversation is about who Trey is or who he will become, continually citing 3 games is a waste of time. It's never been about being accurate when the same logic isn't applied across the board.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by genus49:
I refuse to dog Brock when propping up Trey but this is wrong.

Purdy surprised me with his mobility for sure but he still doesn't bring the same level to the running game as Trey does. So that mythical ceiling if you want to go there is still higher with Trey. Especially when you compare the experience between both. Brock's arm while decent isn't going to scare teams deep and I pray he's back 100% so there isn't any impact on his solid but unspectacular arm.

Trey's arm is in another level so if his mechanics clean up and he's able to run the offense as well as Brock his arm and his legs with his size make him a better QB.

This is not a Peyton Manning vs Ryan Leaf situation where one guy is a lazy dum dum with better athletic tools.

He clearly doesn't need to scare teams deep. Like did you not watch what he did last year? There is no projection with Brock. We already seen it. Though elbow surgery legit concern.

If his mechanics clean up? 3 years! Threw for 20 straight months. Yet we are still talking mechanics. You don't need game reps to clear up mechanics.

I agree with you on the "lazy dum dum" part. He does seem like a smart kid dude seems like an amazing young man. But trying to learn the BASICS of QB on the fly in the NFL. This is why I can't follow blindly.

He knows the basics of the QB, that's why Kyle Shanahan took him #3 overall. And yes we're talking mechanics because those are things that come with playing and work. Brock is older than Lance.

As for Brock's projection you can't say we've seen it when you're talking about a guy long term. We saw the impact CMC had on the offense even with Jimmy who is the only QB who we saw play without and with CMC on this roster.

The offense took a huge step forward so why is the assumption that Lance with CMC and Kittle - two guys who were huge for Brock wouldn't look better than what he looked like week 1?

It may not look the same but when you get a QB who can hurt you in more ways it makes it so you don't need the roster to be as dominant. Now that's also not fair to Brock, you play with who you play so having a good team around him doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have success without those guys BUT it's still a question until you see it happen.

Either way you know that there are some limitations to Brock related to his size, arm and ability as a runner(more due to his size than his legs obviously) that he will never be able to overcome. Lance doesn't have those. So IF we're talking mythological ceiling then let's be honest about it.

Originally posted by genus49:

I am judging Trey off his play. Me bringing up Jimmy was showing hypocrisy in how you guys evaluate players.

Seems like you don't enjoy having that reminder.

I've long maintained the idea that the team couldn't afford to develop Trey to be a BS narrative. Trey didn't get a lot of time to show what he can do but he showed a lot of good which translates long term. The idea that with more experience he becomes worse is crazy to me when the guy didn't look lost out there.

His negatives for the most part are hesitation due to inexperience and wanting to make the right plays but maybe not being adjusted to the speed of the game. That stuff will come with time.

Now soon enough we will see what he can do, or we'll see if he's traded. I think Trey comes in ready to win his job back and we'll see if he's able to do just that or Brock comes back in time and goes back to what he was doing before his injury.

Rooting for both!

Originally posted by Waterbear:
You couldn't be more wrong Krizay.

I've never made definitive claims about Trey, yet you've seen countless definitive claims about Trey in this thread and they're mostly negative. I know you didn't like him coming out of the draft, but you can't ignore the content of this thread based on your preconceived notions.

I've argued against posters saying Trey would outperform Jimmy his rookie season, just as much as I argued against the idea that starting Trey his rookie year would have resulted in a losing season.

I criticized people who mocked Jimmy after his injury, and I criticized people who mocked Trey in week 2. (I've yet to see anyone mock Purdy like they did to Jimmy and Trey).

It makes no difference to me who we have as our QB1, as long as I feel they're capable of being an elite player. With the emergence of Brock Purdy, there's no reason for me to push a pro Trey narrative other than to continue to be objective and fair to any QB with 3 complete starts. But I'm not defending Trey because I want to be right about him, I've been wrong about many prospects and have been honest about all of them.

You also prove my point, claiming Trey is the same as he was in 2019… based off a 3 game sample size. This is a definitive claim that holds little weight.

All three complete games Trey's played are talked about regularly, to act like people aren't using the Arizona and Chicago games to back up their belief that Trey isn't good is disingenuous at best.

If the conversation is who to start, Purdy or Trey, I've repeatedly said I don't mind people saying Trey has proved nothing in comparison. But if the conversation is about who Trey is or who he will become, continually citing 3 games is a waste of time. It's never been about being accurate when the same logic isn't applied across the board.

mic drop

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
They held Lawrence to a 73 passer rating as well.

As 5Rings said/suggested,...you should see it as them holding Lawrence's team to a 73 passer rating as well.

This is a football board. Let's not overrate or underrate the relevance of passer rating as it relates to QBs.

If you want to discuss QB performance,...use other stuff.

And no,...I dont mean team wins. We saw how the "He just wins" thing worked out just this past offseason as opposed to a QB like Carr.

Passer rating paints a decent picture when you need a quick comparison.

I don't give a s**t about Carr.

Not discussing who u care about. Discussing reality.

Throwing a passer rating up there and proclaiming a QB did well is hella weak. Though it's not quite as bad as using the team's W/L record.

If you want to make an argument please clean up the "singular" natured evidence you want to use to support it.

Originally posted by Waterbear:
You couldn't be more wrong Krizay.

I've never made definitive claims about Trey, yet you've seen countless definitive claims about Trey in this thread and they're mostly negative. I know you didn't like him coming out of the draft, but you can't ignore the content of this thread based on your preconceived notions.

I've argued against posters saying Trey would outperform Jimmy his rookie season, just as much as I argued against the idea that starting Trey his rookie year would have resulted in a losing season.

I criticized people who mocked Jimmy after his injury, and I criticized people who mocked Trey in week 2. (I've yet to see anyone mock Purdy like they did to Jimmy and Trey).

It makes no difference to me who we have as our QB1, as long as I feel they're capable of being an elite player. With the emergence of Brock Purdy, there's no reason for me to push a pro Trey narrative other than to continue to be objective and fair to any QB with 3 complete starts. But I'm not defending Trey because I want to be right about him, I've been wrong about many prospects and have been honest about all of them.

You also prove my point, claiming Trey is the same as he was in 2019… based off a 3 game sample size. This is a definitive claim that holds little weight.

All three complete games Trey's played are talked about regularly, to act like people aren't using the Arizona and Chicago games to back up their belief that Trey isn't good is disingenuous at best.

If the conversation is who to start, Purdy or Trey, I've repeatedly said I don't mind people saying Trey has proved nothing in comparison. But if the conversation is about who Trey is or who he will become, continually citing 3 games is a waste of time. It's never been about being accurate when the same logic isn't applied across the board.

I very rarely visited the Jimmy thread so I'm not in that discussion.

You yourself just said if he cleans up his mechanics. He's been working on the same stuff since 2019. Where has he improved in your opinion? Genuine question.

I'm not saying posters haven't brought up the other games what I'm saying is they were being discouraged from using them for obvious reasons. The only game that the "stans" are allowed to use to discuss his performances is the quarter and a half of the Texans game. So 3 1/4 games isn't enough sample size but 1.5 quarters is.

I agree that if the 3 games is all we had to go on would be a waste of time. However, he looks to me exactly like I envisioned him looking. Camp reports, preseason games, his limited game action is about what I expected. Though he does seem to know where to go with the ball. That was better than I expected. Though his running is worse than I expected.

I don't believe in Trey as a passer. I don't believe in Trey to gave Shanny's offense looking as good as Brock or even JG for that matter. But I think he could run it good enough for us to win. I just think it would look clunky/inconsistent/disjointed. His game reminds me of Donovan McNabb. Some people would we ok with that. I was not a fan of McNabbs game. Throwing/accuracy will also be my #1 criteria. I just don't think Trey will have that

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Yes it is. I predicted we would add a day 1 FA with experience, and this convo would come. I think a lot of the "trade TL" or "TL is finished" takes are nonsense. Jed said it correct, he didn't play last year, but that's no fault of TL. He has a real opportunity here under contract and with BP perhaps a long way off. So TL and Sam will be out there in summer and KS will see how they look. For a young guy he will be a lot better in July than he was last Sept he is working / growing.

It sure feels that if Trey doesn't absolutely ball out during OTAs and camp and unequivocally cement himself as the best QB on the 49ers, his career here is over.

The pressure is on for young Trey--pipe or diamond. LFG Trey.

Originally posted by random49er:
Not discussing who u care about. Discussing reality.

Throwing a passer rating up there and proclaiming a QB did well is hella weak. Though it's not quite as bad as using the team's W/L record.

If you want to make an argument please clean up the "singular" natured evidence you want to use to support it.

This. It doesn't matter if it's Trey, Jimmy, Brock, or any other QB, using passer rating or wins and losses is as shallow a statistical argument can get. Those are team statistics that don't highlight each individual's contributions to the numbers.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Yes it is. I predicted we would add a day 1 FA with experience, and this convo would come. I think a lot of the "trade TL" or "TL is finished" takes are nonsense. Jed said it correct, he didn't play last year, but that's no fault of TL. He has a real opportunity here under contract and with BP perhaps a long way off. So TL and Sam will be out there in summer and KS will see how they look. For a young guy he will be a lot better in July than he was last Sept he is working / growing.

It sure feels that if Trey doesn't absolutely ball out during OTAs and camp and unequivocally cement himself as the best QB on the 49ers, his career here is over.

The pressure is on for young Trey--pipe or diamond. LFG Trey.

100%

Originally posted by tankle104:
When physical tools determine how good a qb is, then come talk to me. Last I checked, most of the greats don't have great physical attributes. Lmao because it's not that important. Just has to be good enough - what's between the ears is what matters

I think you meant to say that LOTS of QBs have a great physical trait or two. What separates them is indeed what's between the ears. Even Favre, who is far from intelligent, had elite mental traits with respect to quarterbacking.

Most of them DO have great physical attributes (if physical attributes includes accuracy):

Montana: elite accuracy, elite mobility (for his time)
Young: elite mobility for any time, as well as elite accuracy
Favre: elite arm strength and accuracy
Marino: elite accuracy, absurd release, elite foot quickness
Elway: elite arm strength, elite mobility
Warner: elite accuracy, elite release speed
Aaron Rodgers: elite everything
Brees: absurdly elite accuracy
Brady: elite accuracy

Most of these guys have lots of "greats" with other physical attributes.

When it comes to Brock, he DOES have some great—nay ELITE—physical attributes. For one, his arm angles and his ability to throw off platform are ELITE. And I mean Patrick Mahomes level elite. And I'll die on that hill. He also has elite reflexes. The guy is absurdly quick at reacting to chaos. Like... you guessed it, Mahomes.
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EDIT: Trey Lance.

Originally posted by genus49:

He knows the basics of the QB, that's why Kyle Shanahan took him #3 overall. And yes we're talking mechanics because those are things that come with playing and work. Brock is older than Lance.

As for Brock's projection you can't say we've seen it when you're talking about a guy long term. We saw the impact CMC had on the offense even with Jimmy who is the only QB who we saw play without and with CMC on this roster.

The offense took a huge step forward so why is the assumption that Lance with CMC and Kittle - two guys who were huge for Brock wouldn't look better than what he looked like week 1?

It may not look the same but when you get a QB who can hurt you in more ways it makes it so you don't need the roster to be as dominant. Now that's also not fair to Brock, you play with who you play so having a good team around him doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have success without those guys BUT it's still a question until you see it happen.

Either way you know that there are some limitations to Brock related to his size, arm and ability as a runner(more due to his size than his legs obviously) that he will never be able to overcome. Lance doesn't have those. So IF we're talking mythological ceiling then let's be honest about it.

Neither 49er qb should be running much.
Lance has been hurt badly multiple times running the ball when he was running as often as he was completing passes.

Kyle should know this after what he saw with RGIII and Lance.