Los Angeles Chargers QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by tankle104:
....If you were talking about someone else's post, then my bad. Just wanted to be clear cause people misinterpret posts all the time.

Wasn't replying to you, per say,...but rather a false narrative that seemed to be gaining too much traction.

Gotta separate narratives that sound good away from what's really happening out there before our eyes.

As much as I love both young QBs,...I'm not going to come on here and suggest that I can predict how the rest of their careers may go.

The examples given show repeatedly what can happen with small sample sizes.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by random49er:

Lol Steve Young's 1st NFL Stop:
First 2 Seasons: 3-16 record, 11 TDs 21 INTs
Following Offseason: Bucs draft Vinnie Testaverde 1st Overall
We all know what followed

Then there's this guy that didn't have it enough to be kept:

Following his college career, Warner went undrafted in the 1994 NFL Draft. He was invited to try out for the Green Bay Packers' training camp in 1994, but was released before the regular season began.

And part of the reason he was let go is because he was competing with this guy...that was also a "didn't have it" guy @ his 1st stop:

"I remember Brett would see me and ask me when we were going to start playing him,'' he said. "I am thinking we have a Pro Bowl quarterback in Chris Miller and this rookie is telling me he is the best quarterback on the team. But the coaches were telling me he was drunk in meetings, was fat and erratic. After the season, I didn't have much of a leg to stand on. I thought it may be time to fess up and get rid of my mistake.''

And this guy got years of experience and the team still looked passed him...

And then this guy's timeline after being drafted 32nd overall:
Year 1: Backup to Doug Flutie
Year 2: 17 TDs, 16 INTs
Year 3: 11 TDs, 15 INTs
Year 4: Team drafts Philip Rivers before the season to replace him.

• In about a 15 year span, these guys pretty much took ownership of the QB position.

• Between 3 of these guys we have 7 NFL MVPs,...with Brees only attaining 2 Offensive POTY awards.
  
  
• Can we say that these 4 guys have the natural instincts to play the QB position? If they are so natural and innate @ playing the position, what's up with the teams they were 1st with , and why wasn't it recognized that they all had the potential to be 1st ballot NFL HOFers?

• I mean they've led some of the most productive NFL offenses we've ever seen, yet they all didn't have it enough for their 1st NFL pit stops to recognize that they'd better keep and foster these guys on the field.
  
  BTW....he doesn't at all compare, but what the hell is Jared Goff doing up there in Detroit?

• They were all seen as guys that just didn't have it. I mean I cant be the only poster here that saw all of these storylines play out right before my eyes. But it's pretty easy for me to reject this "either you have it or you don't" theme because without gaining experience it's proven to be very easy to be skipped over in the NFL.

I think it's something that just sounds good to say, but is completely off from a a recent perspective. Looking @ the evidence, it just doesn't match up with the reality of the way things can go in the NFL. Only a max of 32 guys can start any given week, and you can give up on a guy quickly in the NFL if you so choose, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a natural ability to play QB given enough experience.

I remember Young didn't even know how to hold a football properly at BYU 🙃

you don't wake up an amazing QB who can just throw the ball accurately and have coverages figured out. Each player has their own story and how they made it work (or didn't). Some rely on their god given ability early in their careers while they figure out the nuances of playing in the pocket. Others weren't lucky enough to have those abilities and have to work harder on those nuances to get where they are. Is it enough? The league will let you know.

the QB position isn't something that is figured out as soon as you get on the field. Progress and development are needed though. If your ceiling is reached and it's not enough to hang long-term, well that s**t happens all the time. If you don't put the work in regardless of how talented you are, you won't make it long either imo.

Like your examples above show, giving up on a player early is stupid. Fans are instant gratification emotional people. It's even more evident in our SM world. We can't fathom the idea of working hard and allowing for something great to happen after that (which might take time). They'd rather do a stupid dance on TikTok, go viral in hopes of making a couple bucks quickly lol.

Brock and Lance's career at QB aren't figured out at this moment. I'm down to just enjoy right now and let everything else figure itself out next yr. We got a great team and coaching staff. IMO either QB can win games for us. Which one can become that legit guy? No one knows right now…anyone pretending they do is being foolish (and likely has a narrative to push).

I get what the poster is saying about all these QBs but that was all 20+ years at min. The world of high school and college sports have changed drastically. Players are way more advanced at a younger age now and should be a little more prepared for the nfl than they were 20-30+ years ago.

it was common for QBs needing to sit a year or two because of the crap coaching they got at the lower ranks didn't prepare them AT ALL for the nfl. That's why it was so rare to see rookies do anything special or great until the last 10-15 years.

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by tankle104:
....If you were talking about someone else's post, then my bad. Just wanted to be clear cause people misinterpret posts all the time.

Wasn't replying to you, per say,...but rather a false narrative that seemed to be gaining too much traction.

Gotta separate narratives that sound good away from what's really happening out there before our eyes.

As much as I love both young QBs,...I'm not going to come on here and suggest that I can predict how the rest of their careers may go.

I feel like a lot of the people on here just post to get people riled up or annoy others - and for some reason those are the posters that most people respond to and feed the fire. It's super annoying and takes away from us actually talking about anything fun or interesting.

i wish when people saw others posting asinine or obvious troll behaviors, they won't feed it. It's honestly like 80% of the replies in a lot of threads - just people responding to obvious trolls or people that obviously have no idea what they're saying.

Originally posted by tankle104:
Yeah, my question was never a shot at Lance. It was honestly a genuine question that I was curious others opinions. Lances qb class actually had a lot of very intelligent QBs - Lawrence, Max, Fields (scored very very high on processing ability), Lance, Purdy. I may be missing some but I haven't really looked much into the other guys. Zach Wilson is a complete dip$#%t.

i don't think lance has played bad. I just don't think he's done much either. He's been okay and done some good things but definitely has a lot to improve on and will improve on. Kid has a great work ethic. Even if he doesn't end up staying here - he will go somewhere and get a chance.

Purdy wasn't in that draft class.

All I'm saying is lance hasn't played as horrible as some want to proclaim. He hasn't been Mahomes out the gate, that s**t isn't the norm. We've seen a lot of good QBs actually take some time to become who they are now. I don't understand why that's such a controversial thing or isn't allowed to be a possibility (not saying that directly to you).

People who have played sports in their life understand you don't wake up good. Takes blood sweat and tears. Like you said the work ethic is there…maybe we can have some sort of patience to let that s**t develop? I mean more than 4QRs of starting football at the very least? I feel like most people get that, except the people who were against the pick…now it's about being right vs being logical.

Originally posted by tankle104:
I get what the poster is saying about all these QBs but that was all 20+ years at min. The world of high school and college sports have changed drastically. Players are way more advanced at a younger age now and should be a little more prepared for the nfl than they were 20-30+ years ago.

it was common for QBs needing to sit a year or two because of the crap coaching they got at the lower ranks didn't prepare them AT ALL for the nfl. That's why it was so rare to see rookies do anything special or great until the last 10-15 years.

This simply isn't true. College football and HS football is more about being athletic/extending plays then understanding the nuances of playing the position within the pocket more than ever. The mannings' of the world don't really exist anymore. The 4 yr starters in college doesn't exist anymore. The pure in the pocket 5 step drop doesn't exist (as frequent) in college/HC anymore. It's all RPOs, read options, spread concepts. Half field reads throwing to an area & letting your uber talented WR go up and get it.

most of these high end QBs are more of a ball of clay with high ceilings/traits, then pro-ready full field reading coverage QBs. The reason a lot of them never reach their potential is because they simply rely on that ability & never learn the nuances of playing the position…or they land in a horrible organization and like fans they want instant success.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Purdy wasn't in that draft class.

All I'm saying is lance hasn't played as horrible as some want to proclaim. He hasn't been Mahomes out the gate, that s**t isn't the norm. We've seen a lot of good QBs actually take some time to become who they are now. I don't understand why that's such a controversial thing or isn't allowed to be a possibility (not saying that directly to you).

People who have played sports in their life understand you don't wake up good. Takes blood sweat and tears. Like you said the work ethic is there…maybe we can have some sort of patience to let that s**t develop? I mean more than 4QRs of starting football at the very least? I feel like most people get that, except the people who were against the pick…now it's about being right vs being logical.

Hahaha my bad. Brain fart on the Purdy thing.

i understand what you're saying. He WILL get better with experience and reps, that's just a fact. I thought his worst game was his first start, but it wasn't a bad game. It was just clunky and that's expected.

the ONLY issue I have with starting Trey is that I want him to earn it and be the best QB option on the roster. I don't want to start him and hope he gets through his growing pains fast enough to help this roster to a super bowl. If it wasn't for the fact that we are ready to seriously compete for a super bowl, I'd want him out there to see if he is the guy because it would be critical to us trying to compete later. I just don't see the point in taking the risk of starting him over a QB who has shown they can be good on Sunday, until Lance proves that he can do better on Sundays for the team. He just needs to improve on many things and it'll show up in practice. If he develops what we all think he can - he should be able to beat our Purdy in training camp. Purdy earned his way onto the roster that way and made the team eat $1M in Nate Sudfields salary.

There is no reason why a talented top 3 QB in the draft can't beat out a 7th round rookie next training camp. They have similar amount of starting experience in the nfl (Purdy will have the edge by end of season).

i just want the best option for the team and to not make an emotional decision just because we traded valuable draft capital to get him.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
This simply isn't true. College football and HS football is more about being athletic/extending plays then understanding the nuances of playing the position within the pocket more than ever. The mannings' of the world don't really exist anymore. The 4 yr starters in college doesn't exist anymore. The pure in the pocket 5 step drop doesn't exist (as frequent) in college/HC anymore. It's all RPOs, read options, spread concepts. Half field reads throwing to an area & letting your uber talented WR go up and get it.

most of these high end QBs are more of a ball of clay with high ceilings/traits, then pro-ready full field reading coverage QBs. The reason a lot of them never reach their potential is because they simply rely on that ability & never learn the nuances of playing the position…or they land in a horrible organization and like fans they want instant success.

There are soooo many camps all around the country, so many private position coaches now. There is the INTERNET where you can literally learn and watch tutorials on anything.

im not going to debate this with you. Players are more prepared for the nfl as a whole than ever before. That doesn't mean it doesn't benefit players (specifically QBs) to sit a year or take a season or two to get better. I'm just saying it's not as common as it used to be and necessarily a "must". Lances draft class is kind of an anomaly of them all playing so poorly their rookie year, besides Mac Jones.

its why Herbert, Allen, Deshaun Watson, Russell Wilson, Mac Jones, Kyler Murray, Lawrence (he did his best with Meyer sabotaging him), Andrew Luck, Baker Mayfield, Mahommes, Lamar Jackson etc. i could continue - those are all QBs drafted in the first round recently besides Wilson (third round pick) and all came in and hit the ground running in a lot of ways.

so if you're curious why fans are impatient and expecting more from Lance - that's a big reason why and NONE of those guys cost 3 first round picks - at least I don't think. Haha

if you believe that high school and college QBs were just as developed 20-30 years ago as they are today, then idk what to tell you.

Originally posted by tankle104:
Hahaha my bad. Brain fart on the Purdy thing.

i understand what you're saying. He WILL get better with experience and reps, that's just a fact. I thought his worst game was his first start, but it wasn't a bad game. It was just clunky and that's expected.

the ONLY issue I have with starting Trey is that I want him to earn it and be the best QB option on the roster. I don't want to start him and hope he gets through his growing pains fast enough to help this roster to a super bowl. If it wasn't for the fact that we are ready to seriously compete for a super bowl, I'd want him out there to see if he is the guy because it would be critical to us trying to compete later. I just don't see the point in taking the risk of starting him over a QB who has shown they can be good on Sunday, until Lance proves that he can do better on Sundays for the team. He just needs to improve on many things and it'll show up in practice. If he develops what we all think he can - he should be able to beat our Purdy in training camp. Purdy earned his way onto the roster that way and made the team eat $1M in Nate Sudfields salary.

There is no reason why a talented top 3 QB in the draft can't beat out a 7th round rookie next training camp. They have similar amount of starting experience in the nfl (Purdy will have the edge by end of season).

i just want the best option for the team and to not make an emotional decision just because we traded valuable draft capital to get him.

I got no problem with competition.

I also want the most talented players playing. I want the guys they invested/believed in playing and developing. Same thing with a guy like Drake Jackson. Get him out there more. He's clearly talented and needs to play to improve all the same.

see I think when you invest in a high end QB, there's a process. They went that route and understood that it's about developing the QB. The roster is real good and they don't need him to be Mahomes to win games right now. I don't see it as emotional at all…you went that route and understood that there's a process when choosing to move up for a QB that young and not having a ton of experience.

The difference is Brock had 1,500 passing attempts coming into the league. His baseline was he's seen a ton of football. That's great in the short-term. Now give Lance 1,500 passing attempts with Kyle and tell me if you think he will improve. IMO I think he will have. Do I think Brock will improve as much? I don't know. I like to go with the talent/skill set in that situation.

I know I'm in the minority, but I think it's okay to take one step back to take 10 steps ahead long-term. You gotta have faith in your team that they can keep replenishing the roster and coach as well as they have.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
While I don't discount the fact that Brock has had a couple questionable throws, when I think about it more, I have a hard time feeling like the number of those throws has been anything outside the average among the top quarterbacks in the league this year. I mean.. We all saw Mahomes get picked by Hufanga. Brady, Tua, Stafford, etc all have had their bad throws this year, and not just against us.

To be honest actually, for both Trey and Brock, as far as decisions passing the ball, I've liked what I've seen in their small sample sizes.

Brock has looked more accurate with a quicker release and more comfortable overall, probably at least in part to the significant advantage in experience, but if Lance gets a shot again at some point, I think we'll see a better player than some might expect.

Not sure where we're getting the quick release stuff from… At least when people are calling lances awful? Jimmy had by far a quicker release than both. Lance's arm talent and quick hands actually compensate for that too.

I posted Brock throwing the same route in practice yesterday to Lance making that same throw this yr and there's no difference.

Like you said having all those reps before stepping on the field has helped Brock a s**t ton. He looks confident running this system and processes everything quickly. He's not getting rid of the ball as quick as he can like Jimmy either. His TTT is like 2.9sec. He's looking high/low (which is what kyle wants) and not afraid to move around & let plays develop.

our receivers need to get better at those scramble plays and getting open outside their route. They're not used to that with Jimmy behind center.

I dunno man,

Brock is flat out beating the unblocked blitz with his arm. I don't see any hitch in his throwing motion or any delay in his set up. From a layman's perspective Brock looks effective. Jimmy has not really been Jimmy in years, minus his minor revival this year.

Trey clearly has not even run the same offense, I don't know how we could take anything useful away from that unless it is just the blanket assumption Trey can't run the same offense at this point.

That is my position btw, Trey ran that gimmick offense this season, because he could not....at this point...... meet the standards needed to run the "normal offense".

I am sure at some point Trey's natural talent will shine though to whatever extent he has it. If Shanny wanted him, I am sure he saw stuff he can work with.

Originally posted by tankle104:
There are soooo many camps all around the country, so many private position coaches now. There is the INTERNET where you can literally learn and watch tutorials on anything.

im not going to debate this with you. Players are more prepared for the nfl as a whole than ever before. That doesn't mean it doesn't benefit players (specifically QBs) to sit a year or take a season or two to get better. I'm just saying it's not as common as it used to be and necessarily a "must". Lances draft class is kind of an anomaly of them all playing so poorly their rookie year, besides Mac Jones.

its why Herbert, Allen, Deshaun Watson, Russell Wilson, Mac Jones, Kyler Murray, Lawrence (he did his best with Meyer sabotaging him), Andrew Luck, Baker Mayfield, Mahommes, Lamar Jackson etc. i could continue - those are all QBs drafted in the first round recently besides Wilson (third round pick) and all came in and hit the ground running in a lot of ways.

so if you're curious why fans are impatient and expecting more from Lance - that's a big reason why and NONE of those guys cost 3 first round picks - at least I don't think. Haha

if you believe that high school and college QBs were just as developed 20-30 years ago as they are today, then idk what to tell you.

QB camps are great, in no way do they replace live reps. Go listen to Quincy Avery, Lance's QB guru for basically a yr talk about it. There is no simulation for live football. You can work on your mechanics and watch all the film in the world. That s**t means nothing if you can't apply it to live football. Applying it to live football is a learned trait that takes time.

Mac Jones wasn't great by any means last yr. He like Brock had a solid floor with understanding the nuances of the QB position. He has too because his physical talent overall is meh. Teams towards the end of last yr figured out what coverages to play and well we're seeing it ain't special from McCorkle.

Allen did not hit the ground running as a in the pocket QB lol. They literally ran Watson's offense from college in Texas early in his career. Same with Jackson and Murray. All those guys depended on their physical ability more than their understanding of coverages and all the nuances of playing the position in-the-pocket when they first started in the league. That was another talking point from Quincy Avery when discussing todays QB. That's the truth.

The offenses being run in HC and college are not offenses that require all the nuances of playing inside of the pocket…s**t that does matter in the NFL unless you're Kliff Kingsbury and running a gimmicky offense that is failing in the NFL. It's no different when looking at offensive lineman and pass blocking…why for the most part do they all stink coming out of college? Because they're not learning how to do true pass-pro sets. College doesn't give a crap about getting these kids ready for the pros. It's about winning and putting points up.

Originally posted by tankle104:
I feel like a lot of the people on here just post to get people riled up or annoy others - and for some reason those are the posters that most people respond to and feed the fire. It's super annoying and takes away from us actually talking about anything fun or interesting.

i wish when people saw others posting asinine or obvious troll behaviors, they won't feed it. It's honestly like 80% of the replies in a lot of threads - just people responding to obvious trolls or people that obviously have no idea what they're saying.

Agree with all of this.

Originally posted by Dshearn:
I dunno man,

Brock is flat out beating the unblocked blitz with his arm. I don't see any hitch in his throwing motion or any delay in his set up. From a layman's perspective Brock looks effective. Jimmy has not really been Jimmy in years, minus his minor revival this year.

Trey clearly has not even run the same offense, I don't know how we could take anything useful away from that unless it is just the blanket assumption Trey can't run the same offense at this point.

That is my position btw, Trey ran that gimmick offense this season, because he could not....at this point...... meet the standards needed to run the "normal offense".

I am sure at some point Trey's natural talent will shine though to whatever extent he has it. If Shanny wanted him, I am sure he saw stuff he can work with.

Beating a blitz is more about anticipation and presnap awareness. I'm looking at his release/throwing motion just from yesterday and it's nothing special or even greatly different than Lance's, while making the same throw. this has nothing to do with hating on Brock and pointing out how much people s**t on Lance over something as stupid (and factually incorrect) as his slow release. Especially if you think Brock has a "quick" release.

outside of running a couple more read options/QB powers. What exactly didn't Lance run or what was he incapable of doing? We saw bootlegs, yankee concepts, in breaking routes, play action both under center and from the gun. People are trying to embellish/rewrite the past. Sure he wasn't amazing in a couple QRs of football. He wasn't consistent. It wasn't all s**t either.

Brock is doing is thing and I'm here to see how it plays out. I hope he becomes the next Drew Brees or whatever. There's a long way to determine that, 2 starts is just that. Two starts.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Beating a blitz is more about anticipation and presnap awareness. I'm looking at his release/throwing motion just from yesterday and it's nothing special or even greatly different than Lance's, while making the same throw. this has nothing to do with hating on Brock and pointing out how much people s**t on Lance over something as stupid (and factually incorrect) as his slow release. Especially if you think Brock has a "quick" release.

outside of running a couple more read options/QB powers. What exactly didn't Lance run or what was he incapable of doing? We saw bootlegs, yankee concepts, in breaking routes, play action both under center and from the gun. People are trying to embellish/rewrite the past. Sure he wasn't amazing in a couple QRs of football. He wasn't consistent. It wasn't all s**t either.

Brock is doing is thing and I'm here to see how it plays out. I hope he becomes the next Drew Brees or whatever. There's a long way to determine that, 2 starts is just that. Two starts.

Can you even name a rookie QB having a more impressive first 3 games of their career (exclude KC garbage time, include the Dolphins game since he played all but first drive and the team was trailing when he got in the game)? Sure Aaron Rodgers and Jimmy Garoppolo had a great start in their career, but they were sitting on the bench for several seasons. Rookie QB? I can't think of any.

You made an argument how unready rookie QB are and that none of them are ready to play in the NFL right away. Well, we have Purdy, but you are not impressed by his performance. But you think Trey wasn't very bad. You think he was good here and there. Let me tell you this. The vast majority of 1st round bust QB can probably flash here and there.

This is a complete double standard.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Dshearn:
I dunno man,

Brock is flat out beating the unblocked blitz with his arm. I don't see any hitch in his throwing motion or any delay in his set up. From a layman's perspective Brock looks effective. Jimmy has not really been Jimmy in years, minus his minor revival this year.

Trey clearly has not even run the same offense, I don't know how we could take anything useful away from that unless it is just the blanket assumption Trey can't run the same offense at this point.

That is my position btw, Trey ran that gimmick offense this season, because he could not....at this point...... meet the standards needed to run the "normal offense".

I am sure at some point Trey's natural talent will shine though to whatever extent he has it. If Shanny wanted him, I am sure he saw stuff he can work with.

Beating a blitz is more about anticipation and presnap awareness. I'm looking at his release/throwing motion just from yesterday and it's nothing special or even greatly different than Lance's, while making the same throw. this has nothing to do with hating on Brock and pointing out how much people s**t on Lance over something as stupid (and factually incorrect) as his slow release. Especially if you think Brock has a "quick" release.

outside of running a couple more read options/QB powers. What exactly didn't Lance run or what was he incapable of doing? We saw bootlegs, yankee concepts, in breaking routes, play action both under center and from the gun. People are trying to embellish/rewrite the past. Sure he wasn't amazing in a couple QRs of football. He wasn't consistent. It wasn't all s**t either.

Brock is doing is thing and I'm here to see how it plays out. I hope he becomes the next Drew Brees or whatever. There's a long way to determine that, 2 starts is just that. Two starts.

For me it's calmness in the pocket, and for now I'll attribute it purely to inexperience. I know that's a generic and vague assessment, just my eyeballs saying this. What's good is that, in 2021, he looked better in the HOU game when compared to his ARI start. And he looked better in the HOU second half than HOU first half. He still has not had two consecutive full starts where he can settle into some sort of rhythm. The conundrum I see in 2023 is Lance can't get better unless he plays, and he may only play if he's better than Brock.
In my ideal scenario, Brock enters 2023 as plan B while Lance gets his chance to play and improve. How quickly Lance progresses will determine how much time he's given. All this with Brock breathing down his back. Also a factor is how Brock closes out 2022.

Originally posted by libertyforever:
Can you even name a rookie QB having a more impressive first 3 games of their career (exclude KC garbage time, include the Dolphins game since he played all but first drive and the team was trailing when he got in the game)? Sure Aaron Rodgers and Jimmy Garoppolo had a great start in their career, but they were sitting on the bench for several seasons. Rookie QB? I can't think of any.

You made an argument how unready rookie QB are and that none of them are ready to play in the NFL right away. Well, we have Purdy, but you are not impressed by his performance. But you think Trey wasn't very bad. You think he was good here and there. Let me tell you this. The vast majority of 1st round bust QB can probably flash here and there.

This is a complete double standard.

I never said I wasn't impressed with his performance, don't put words in my mouth dude. I have praised him plenty and said I didn't see that coming from him. He does what kyle wanted Jimmy to do. He looks high to low and isn't afraid to move around and deal with pressure. He can make proper reads pre-snap and has good anticipation. Like everything in here people are instant reaction one way or the other. It's two starts.

I made a clear and understandable post that most highly drafted QBs aren't savants in the pocket right out of the gate. Most are drafted to dog s**t teams with horrible coaching staffs. Most get tossed out there and expect to do more than they can, which often leads to bad football. Most young successful QBs rely on their athletic ability to make positive plays before excelling in the pocket.

even dudes that were regarded as generational talents like Lawrence, luck and manning weren't stunning out the gate.

IMO Herbert had some of the best QB play I've seen as a rookie.

I SAID people are rewriting history when they said lance played poorly or couldn't run this offense. No he wasn't consistent as you want and Brock clearly looks like he's played 5x as much as football as Lance has. That doesn't mean given more snaps that Lance won't become the better player all said and done. Doesn't mean Brock can't get better either. We have no clue so stop acting like you do.

dont create some crap narrative by twisting my words. You want to have a legit convo, I'm fine with that…I'm not gonna argue with someone that makes up stuff though.