Mac Jones-QB-49ers

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by rathman4481:
Not sure why upgrading OL for a QB is such a big deal. We saw what happens when you have a subpar OL in the SB.

We also saw what a good OL did for us in 2011-2013.

we did NOT have a great pass-protecting OL in 2011-2013. great at run-blocking though.

All I'm saying is some QBs will require a top end PP OL to be successful. This FO/coaching staff doesn't value guards, never have. They value run-blocking, play-action, bootlegs etc..

We also saw what happens when you have a mobile QB with a strong arm in the SB can do.

A loss lol?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:
You said they'd have to overhaul the OL more with him than another QB prospect...I dunno about that.

Mobile QBs give you plays where they can buy time despite bad protection or escape a rush but they also run into sacks and some hold the ball longer thinking they can escape.

Jones has a very good OL right now but we've seen protection issues where he doesn't get rattled. Obviously I fully understand it's easier to remain calm when you're only facing pressure a fraction of the time versus most of the time but still...

Non mobile QBs who work the pocket well and feel the pressure can work with poor OL play better than some mobile guys.

Huh? When there's no pocket it doesn't matter lol. If he's not athletic enough to get out of a collapsing pocket it doesn't matter....Jones is working with the best OL in the country, best receivers in the country, best RB in the country, they use max protection a s**t ton (because their receivers are great) play calling is on a different level then other teams.

Like I said he's super heady, feels pressure well, makes good reads etc...when those windows get smaller and the talent level is on a more level playing ground, what then? That OL is gonna have to straight up PP better end of the day for a player like Jones.

When there's no pocket mobile guys can only do so much as well. However we've seen plenty of plays this year where our QB simply could've stepped up or moved around a bit to avoid pressure and make the play.

I think typically pocket passers who can move well in the pocket are able to better account for pressure from the tackles(outside) while the mobile QBs do a better job avoiding pressure up the middle since they can move vs typically slower DTs and get to the edges.

Of course the issue is still an issue if your tackles are not doing their job and we know there was a lot of pressure that came from McGlinchey's side this year.

My point basically is just cuz a guy is mobile doesn't mean he can play well with bad pass pro. In some ways a guy who is able to read the defense, make the throw on time and sense pressure better without being super mobile may actually cover up for pass protection issues better.

Jones doesn't have a high ceiling but his floor IMO is much higher than Lance. We may have a decision to make...do we roll the dice and go for someone like Lance who is clearly a better athletic animal than Garoppolo or go with someone like Jones who may not be a big if any improvement from Jimmy athletically but may give us a cheaper similar player who can do some things better(deep passing)

Originally posted by AsianJeff:

Originally posted by Ensatsu:
I say trade down with your 1st round pick. Take an EDGE/CB. Then in the 2nd round, if he's there, go for it. If hes not, its not really that big of a deal, IMO. I am not really wow'd by his tape like some are here.

Care to explain why?

I think he could thrive under Shanahan's system. But anywhere else, he'd probably just be another guy. There's no elite physical traits, IMO.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:
I think he could thrive under Shanahan's system. But anywhere else, he'd probably just be another guy. There's no elite physical traits, IMO.

Wouldn't they be drafting him for Shanahan's system? I don't care if a guy is seen as a "system QB" if they happen to kick ass in a particular system. Jones would work well in offenses like the 49ers, Saints and Steelers.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by rathman4481:

Not sure why upgrading OL for a QB is such a big deal. We saw what happens when you have a subpar OL in the SB.

We also saw what a good OL did for us in 2011-2013.

we did NOT have a great pass-protecting OL in 2011-2013. great at run-blocking though.

All I'm saying is some QBs will require a top end PP OL to be successful. This FO/coaching staff doesn't value guards, never have. They value run-blocking, play-action, bootlegs etc..

We also saw what happens when you have a mobile QB with a strong arm in the SB can do.

A loss lol?

Not if you're a KC fan...that 3rd & 15 play has absolutely no chance of happening with a guy like Jones.

Originally posted by genus49:

When there's no pocket mobile guys can only do so much as well. However we've seen plenty of plays this year where our QB simply could've stepped up or moved around a bit to avoid pressure and make the play.

I think typically pocket passers who can move well in the pocket are able to better account for pressure from the tackles(outside) while the mobile QBs do a better job avoiding pressure up the middle since they can move vs typically slower DTs and get to the edges.

Of course the issue is still an issue if your tackles are not doing their job and we know there was a lot of pressure that came from McGlinchey's side this year.

My point basically is just cuz a guy is mobile doesn't mean he can play well with bad pass pro. In some ways a guy who is able to read the defense, make the throw on time and sense pressure better without being super mobile may actually cover up for pass protection issues better.

Jones doesn't have a high ceiling but his floor IMO is much higher than Lance. We may have a decision to make...do we roll the dice and go for someone like Lance who is clearly a better athletic animal than Garoppolo or go with someone like Jones who may not be a big if any improvement from Jimmy athletically but may give us a cheaper similar player who can do some things better(deep passing)

Being "mobile" doesn't mean you can't play in the pocket either. You can have good footwork inside the pocket and still move and extend plays outside of the pocket as well. It's not one or the other

People hear the term mobile and take it to the extreme...I call a QB like Tannehill, a mobile QB.

I'm also not saying you don't need to improve the OL if the QB can move...without question it helps an OL though.

Kyle doesn't value guards overall. You think that will help or hurt a guy like Jones? You think MCG's play this yr hurts a guy like Jones or Fields more?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by rathman4481:
Not sure why upgrading OL for a QB is such a big deal. We saw what happens when you have a subpar OL in the SB.

We also saw what a good OL did for us in 2011-2013.

we did NOT have a great pass-protecting OL in 2011-2013. great at run-blocking though.

All I'm saying is some QBs will require a top end PP OL to be successful. This FO/coaching staff doesn't value guards, never have. They value run-blocking, play-action, bootlegs etc..

We also saw what happens when you have a mobile QB with a strong arm in the SB can do.

A loss lol?

Not if you're a KC fan...that 3rd & 15 play has absolutely no chance of happening with a guy like Jones.

Kap was mobile with a huge arm. We lost.

Mahomes had an OL that was allowed to hold like it wasn't against the rules and had the best deep threat WR in the game. And yet it was still a screw up by our defense on that play bundled with their holding that allowed that play to happen.

But this also goes back to other discussion in this thread - do you draft for 10% of plays or 90% of plays?

I know we all want a Mahomes/Josh Allen type who can do whatever, whenever but if we can't get one of those guys then I think someone like Jones may make more sense for us to win now vs Lance who is certainly way more talented athletically and physically but needs a lot more work from the development stand point.

Allen took until year 3 for things to really click. Mahomes sat out year one and said he didn't really learn how to read defenses until last year. We're in a SB window. I don't know if we can year til year 3 for a QB to have things click.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Ensatsu:
I think he could thrive under Shanahan's system. But anywhere else, he'd probably just be another guy. There's no elite physical traits, IMO.

Wouldn't they be drafting him for Shanahan's system? I don't care if a guy is seen as a "system QB" if they happen to kick ass in a particular system. Jones would work well in offenses like the 49ers, Saints and Steelers.

Yeah the whole system QB is silly to me. Nobody calls Brees a system QB even though he was nowhere near HOF status before getting with Payton.

Tom Brady doing ok for being a system QB on a totally different system.

Originally posted by genus49:

Kap was mobile with a huge arm. We lost.

Mahomes had an OL that was allowed to hold like it wasn't against the rules and had the best deep threat WR in the game. And yet it was still a screw up by our defense on that play bundled with their holding that allowed that play to happen.

But this also goes back to other discussion in this thread - do you draft for 10% of plays or 90% of plays?

I know we all want a Mahomes/Josh Allen type who can do whatever, whenever but if we can't get one of those guys then I think someone like Jones may make more sense for us to win now vs Lance who is certainly way more talented athletically and physically but needs a lot more work from the development stand point.

Allen took until year 3 for things to really click. Mahomes sat out year one and said he didn't really learn how to read defenses until last year. We're in a SB window. I don't know if we can year til year 3 for a QB to have things click.

There is an intangible with Mac Jones that I am sure is covered in this thread, but I don't want to back read 60 pages. The kid graduated in 3 years with a 4.0 (yeah yeah 'bama education....) But the kid is clearly smart. Smart = start faster. His wonderlic score will be interesting.

I should start a separate thread on this. but of the top 6 Qbs who do you think could start right away? I may have some guys ranked higher on my QB board, but I only feel comfortable with a couple of them starting right away. Mac Jones is one of them.

Originally posted by kansasninerfan:
There is an intangible with Mac Jones that I am sure is covered in this thread, but I don't want to back read 60 pages. The kid graduated in 3 years with a 4.0 (yeah yeah 'bama education....) But the kid is clearly smart. Smart = start faster. His wonderlic score will be interesting.

I should start a separate thread on this. but of the top 6 Qbs who do you think could start right away? I may have some guys ranked higher on my QB board, but I only feel comfortable with a couple of them starting right away. Mac Jones is one of them.

And got his Masters degree a year later.

His wonderlic score will be interesting.

He might not even be off the charts intelligent but he's certainly bright enough and driven.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
And got his Masters degree a year later.

His wonderlic score will be interesting.

He might not even be off the charts intelligent but he's certainly bright enough and driven.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if he scores very high. In fact I kinda expect it and will kinda bummed if he doesn't even if it doesn't necessarily mean much.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by kansasninerfan:
There is an intangible with Mac Jones that I am sure is covered in this thread, but I don't want to back read 60 pages. The kid graduated in 3 years with a 4.0 (yeah yeah 'bama education....) But the kid is clearly smart. Smart = start faster. His wonderlic score will be interesting.

I should start a separate thread on this. but of the top 6 Qbs who do you think could start right away? I may have some guys ranked higher on my QB board, but I only feel comfortable with a couple of them starting right away. Mac Jones is one of them.

And got his Masters degree a year later.

His wonderlic score will be interesting.

He might not even be off the charts intelligent but he's certainly bright enough and driven.

Love the story about him and his dad creating a "goals" list. Looked like a damn book.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Ensatsu:

I think he could thrive under Shanahan's system. But anywhere else, he'd probably just be another guy. There's no elite physical traits, IMO.

Wouldn't they be drafting him for Shanahan's system? I don't care if a guy is seen as a "system QB" if they happen to kick ass in a particular system. Jones would work well in offenses like the 49ers, Saints and Steelers.

My point was. I don't particularly see him as some special talent that is 1st round worthy. At best, he might be like a Daniel Jones. Just a solid quarterback with some mobility and needs to be in a good system. At pick 12, it seems too rich.

Even on a trade back, its still pretty meh to me. But I could live with it if Shanny really likes him that much.

Originally posted by genus49:
Kap was mobile with a huge arm. We lost.

Mahomes had an OL that was allowed to hold like it wasn't against the rules and had the best deep threat WR in the game. And yet it was still a screw up by our defense on that play bundled with their holding that allowed that play to happen.

But this also goes back to other discussion in this thread - do you draft for 10% of plays or 90% of plays?

I know we all want a Mahomes/Josh Allen type who can do whatever, whenever but if we can't get one of those guys then I think someone like Jones may make more sense for us to win now vs Lance who is certainly way more talented athletically and physically but needs a lot more work from the development stand point.

Allen took until year 3 for things to really click. Mahomes sat out year one and said he didn't really learn how to read defenses until last year. We're in a SB window. I don't know if we can year til year 3 for a QB to have things click.

You want to bring up context for one SB but not the other? We lost the SB with Kap because of horrible play-calling and a piss poor defense. Regardless of holding or whatever, Mahomes made that play because he was mobile and had the arm talent to do it. That s**t wins you a super bowl.

I want to draft a QB that can do everything. Why is that such a bad thing? Great the QB can play within the pocket AND is mobile enough to extend plays, get free yards/1st downs, zone reads/RPOs are a actual thing etc.

Why can't we get one of those guys? Why can't we move up? Give the Phins an offer they can't refuse. Give ATL an offer they can't refuse. All this well let's just settle for a QB s**t is part of the reason we are still looking for an actual answer...look at this


SF hasn't drafted a QB in the first rd since 2005 and only use one 1st rd pick since 1998

I think Jones is a fine QB prospect. He likely costs us our 12th overall pick. He's great under structure and can run the offense the way you want it run. When s**t breakdowns and talent around gets hurt (and it does/will) I want a QB that can make s**t happen regardless.