Mac Jones-QB-49ers

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I said "usually" not learnable, and history seems to support that claim (which is why Warner alluded to it when discussing Rosen).

And again, please stop claiming guys like Lance were told not to see the field. That's based on nothing but a need to explain why he didn't move to a wide open second read on some plays.

Again, not unlearnable, but it rarely happens.

How about you go checkout your Walterfootball evaluations or Rosen...literally his strengths were vision/football IQ/reading coverages etc.

Again what QB drafted in the past 5yrs with the same traits as Jones, had been successful?

Lance had half reads, it's there for you to see. His QB coach talks about it. Doesn't mean he can't do it (herbert says hi) or learn it. He was running the offense he was asked to run.

No one asking a QB at 12 to start day 1.

(1) If WF said Rosen was a fast processor, they were way off. I'm not tied to a scouting group. When they're right they're right, when they're wrong they're wrong.

(2) I'm not sure there have been many QBs with Jones traits in the last five years that didn't also have other traits (such as elite arm strength), or who have even worse physical ability. I can't recall a guy with an average arm who had good pocket movement and quick progression processing.

(3) Everyone had half-reads. I'm talking about one read and run on plays that CLEARLY have secondary options (that were open), and I'm talking about him staring his first read down, and so on. I've already posted a particular clip on the former which was never explained, so what's the point?

You won't agree that he does these things, but I think it's because you don't want to see it. Maybe I'm wrong. But if not, I see it and STILL think he's a good prospect because of his physical traits and how easy Shanahan makes it for QBs.

But humor me for the sake of argument. Suppose I'm right and Lance DOES have some field vision issues. If so, what is it that causes the few QBs who drastically improve that trait, and is there any sign Lance could?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
But ASSUMING I'm right, that it is rare for a QB to develop field vision, what is the reason? Clearly some of them do, even though it is rare.

So you say it's learnable, so what is your hypothesis for why so many guys don't develop field vision?

What current starting QBs had amazing field vision and went through multiple reads in college? Who was asked to diagnose a coverage pre-snap and move around protections? Who had ALL of that figured out before stepping into the NFL?

that's a learnable trait IF you have a prospect willing to learn it (smart) and the proper coaching staff.

That's like you telling me I couldn't learn how to drive a car after I turn 20.

I haven't watched a lot of QBs in depth of late, but last one I obsessed over DID have quality field vision in college: Mahomes. Dude saw windows that sane people do not see. But he's a first ballot HoFer so I'll let it lie.

But I'm not talking about amazing field vision and perfect progressions. I can tell you one right now who's a lot better at it: Jones. But Jones has limited physical gifts. If you could combine Jones and Lance, you'd have a truly great QB.

One thing I'll concede: everyone who gets field vision has to develop field vision to an extent (natural talent can't be all of it), and Lance has thrown a total of like 300 passes ever. So maybe he has a lot of filling in to do which may push him to develop those traits.

Anyway this is ONE trait we're disagreeing on for God's sake. I think we're both in agreement that he runs play-action well, he has a fast release, a strong arm, excellent touch, and excellent mobility.

There's a lot to like with Lance.

Originally posted by AsianJeff:

Originally posted by Nastastical:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
That's like saying water is more wet than salt.

But this guy wouldn't make me sad if we picked him. He's almost tailor made for a Shanahan offense.

Exactly! Don't care how he would fit or look with the other 31 teams. For us, he's perfect

This is what I don't get from the people that are against drafting Jones. Have some of you guys not been paying attention to what Kyle Shanahan does on offense? He put up a historically good offense with Matt Ryan at QB, who doesn't have a rocket arm and isn't a good athlete. He schemes guys open and the QB literally just has to follow the script and not do dumb sh*t when the play isn't there to be made. He wants guys that are an extension of him at QB. You don't need a big arm to hit guys running open across the middle of the field or downfield with a step on the defender, you just need to be poised in the pocket and accurate, which both Ryan and Cousins were, and Mac Jones is. Jimmy is also somewhat accurate, but his biggest issues is how he panics in the pocket under pressure since the ACL, and he's just not very accurate throwing towards the sidelines or downfield, so it limits him and our offense. If Jones can simply expand Shanny's playbook with his skillset, then he's more than worth our 1st round pick. I'd even trade up to #8 if it means securing him.

Some of you are obsessing over traits that Kyle has never put much value into. It's like you want him to change up the entire offense just to fit your idea of what a QB should look like. It's the same way people go crazy for big WR's and this offense hardly ever calls plays that best utilize those guys strengths, or big slow footed OL that can't move in space. Stop trying to force fit guys into this offense when it's shown to be highly effective when Kyle gets the players he wants and injuries don't kill the season.

Agreed! I don't have an issue at all with the strong armed, athletic QBs, but I really don't think that's the direction NFL teams will be going in order to be a threat in the playoffs. I still believe it's the accuracy, poise, IQ, and toughness that will get a QB to take his team over the top. The mobility and rocket arms are just pluses, but not necessarily a necessity. Some folks on here are always like "Im tired of not going after the top guy with unlimited athleticism. I'm tired of not having a QB that can run it for a 1st down. I'm tired of not having a top 5 QB."

I don't need a damn Ferrari at QB. Mac can't break a 15 yard rush, but he'll find his open receiver in under 2 seconds. Mac won't laser a 65 yard strike, but he'll throw the prettiest fly route and make it catchable for Aiyuk and Kittle. First read isn't open? He probably won't tuck and run, but he'll maneuver around the pocket to go up to his third read if he has to. It's not flashy, but if it moves the chains and puts points on the board, sign me up.

1) it wasn't just WF it was the consensus across the board. That was a strength of Rosen.

2) plenty of nonathletic QBs that have to rely on processing the field to win. They just don't get drafted high anymore. I mean every damn Bama QB was that way. Only reason Tua went higher was because he provided some mobility.

3) what the heck do you think SF and most of the NFL does? Almost 70% of NFL completions are from 1st reads. I mean what do you think kyle has done for Jimmy? Play-action slant, play-action slant, getting the ball out quick IS his 1st read lol. A bunch of choice routes which ends up being his first read. Kyle gets paid a ton of cash to scheme dudes open. Jimmy has no problem doing that under structure stuff. Issue is when it all doesn't go as plan, we're f**ked. ...Out of structure plays don't really exist with the current quarterbacks we have.

ALL rookie QBs go through a process of learning pre/post snap reads and getting use to the speed of the NFL. What a lot of good young rookies rely on is their god given abilities to make plays early on....We saw it with Allen/Jackson/herbert/Watson and yes Mahomes.

I don't know Lance as a person, I don't know his drive and willingness to prepare. Everything I've read is he's A+ there (same with Fields).

End of the day you take what a 21 yr old is damn good at, mold it around the offense and develop....you want a player that is 98% better than other guys and has a chance to be special...you know who said that? Shanahan

And it's not just Lance, I have fields/Wilson neck and neck as QB2...I just don't think either will be in striking range and I don't think this FO has the cojones to go get either.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I haven't watched a lot of QBs in depth of late, but last one I obsessed over DID have quality field vision in college: Mahomes. Dude saw windows that sane people do not see. But he's a first ballot HoFer so I'll let it lie.

But I'm not talking about amazing field vision and perfect progressions. I can tell you one right now who's a lot better at it: Jones. But Jones has limited physical gifts. If you could combine Jones and Lance, you'd have a truly great QB.

One thing I'll concede: everyone who gets field vision has to develop field vision to an extent (natural talent can't be all of it), and Lance has thrown a total of like 300 passes ever. So maybe he has a lot of filling in to do which may push him to develop those traits.

There's a difference between what you call field vision and reading coverages & diagnosing things pre/post snap.

Mahomes himself said he couldn't read coverages coming out of college (or for a couple yrs into the league) he could make ridiculous throws because of his stupid arm talent. A lot of those throws were out of structure as well.

it's fine to have skepticism with a guy like Lance, he's young and has little film to go off. He can without question make every single throw you want at the next level. It's up to the coaching staff to figure out what to do with that talent, where he goes will be very important.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Anyway this is ONE trait we're disagreeing on for God's sake. I think we're both in agreement that he runs play-action well, he has a fast release, a strong arm, excellent touch, and excellent mobility.

There's a lot to like with Lance.

It's all good just having a convo

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I haven't watched a lot of QBs in depth of late, but last one I obsessed over DID have quality field vision in college: Mahomes. Dude saw windows that sane people do not see. But he's a first ballot HoFer so I'll let it lie.

But I'm not talking about amazing field vision and perfect progressions. I can tell you one right now who's a lot better at it: Jones. But Jones has limited physical gifts. If you could combine Jones and Lance, you'd have a truly great QB.

One thing I'll concede: everyone who gets field vision has to develop field vision to an extent (natural talent can't be all of it), and Lance has thrown a total of like 300 passes ever. So maybe he has a lot of filling in to do which may push him to develop those traits.

You keep saying this, yet I've searched the Mahomes thread and you didn't come up once, it was mainly Wrathman driving the train.

Always nice scouting in hindsight.

Wrath was the CEO of the Mahomes fan club.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Name me the last QB that plays like Mac drafted in the last 5 yrs that's been successful?

Name me all the prospects that were similar to Mac and that had first round grades like Mac that have come out in the last 5 years?

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Name me the last QB that plays like Mac drafted in the last 5 yrs that's been successful?

Name me all the prospects that were similar to Mac and that had first round grades like Mac that have come out in the last 5 years?

Is Jones really a first when he's at what, the 5th best option ?

like if it weren't for a needy QB year..he goes to at least the 2nd round possibly 3rd.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
There's a difference between what you call field vision and reading coverages & diagnosing things pre/post snap.

Mahomes himself said he couldn't read coverages coming out of college (or for a couple yrs into the league) he could make ridiculous throws because of his stupid arm talent. A lot of those throws were out of structure as well.

it's fine to have skepticism with a guy like Lance, he's young and has little film to go off. He can without question make every single throw you want at the next level. It's up to the coaching staff to figure out what to do with that talent, where he goes will be very important.

Jones is more ready now but has a lower ceiling. He may already be as good as he ever will be other than learning the defenses.
Lance has a much higher potential to be truly great but he's also more likely to be a total bust. It's a risk vs reward situation.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Name me the last QB that plays like Mac drafted in the last 5 yrs that's been successful?

Name me all the prospects that were similar to Mac and that had first round grades like Mac that have come out in the last 5 years?

Is Jones really a first when he's at what, the 5th best option ?

like if it weren't for a needy QB year..he goes to at least the 2nd round possibly 3rd.

Does he? That's your opinion and opinions aren't factual.

I called him a first rounder because the consensus on Mac from the experts and analysts is he is a first rounder. Still based on opinion but it's what most of the opinions conclude and take personal feelings/bias out of it.

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Name me the last QB that plays like Mac drafted in the last 5 yrs that's been successful?

Name me all the prospects that were similar to Mac and that had first round grades like Mac that have come out in the last 5 years?

Is Jones really a first when he's at what, the 5th best option ?

like if it weren't for a needy QB year..he goes to at least the 2nd round possibly 3rd.

Does he? That's your opinion and opinions aren't factual.

I called him a first rounder because the consensus on Mac from the experts and analysts is he is a first rounder. Still based on opinion but it's what most of the opinions conclude and take personal feelings/bias out of it.

that all this thread is, personal and hyperbole. How many boards have Jones at better than a 4th or 5th ranking ?