Dee Ford, DE

Originally posted by Giedi:

I read it. AB is a cap stud. However, he relies on back loading a lot of the deals into the future. I just think that's a recipie for a future cap hell. How the patriots have maintained a super bowl team and still not go though cap hell is amazing. But generally, I think how they have done it is letting go some of their star players, and constantly finding new talent, which is under priced, as compared to players comming into thier 2nd and third contracts which will be priced above the market.

Just some thoughts in the matter, I really haven't thought about it as thoroughly as AB - so it's by no means my final conclusion.

I hear you. The only modern team in the NFL outside of our team originally that has gotten themselves into cap hell is today's Cowboys. They actually were in the red and had 3 huge contracts still left to hand out at the 3 most expensive positions. They've already locked up 2.

And once they resign Dak, it will essentially be proof positive the cap is merely a myth (not really...but it's a "boundary" easily managed around with a myriad of strategies well known today by master capologists).

The bottom line is, if you want to keep a player or players, you can. The cap will not prohibit you from doing it. Other factors will.

Originally posted by Giedi:
I read it. AB is a cap stud. However, he relies on back loading a lot of the deals into the future. I just think that's a recipie for a future cap hell. How the patriots have maintained a super bowl team and still not go though cap hell is amazing. But generally, I think how they have done it is letting go some of their star players, and constantly finding new talent, which is under priced, as compared to players comming into thier 2nd and third contracts which will be priced above the market.

Just some thoughts in the matter, I really haven't thought about it as thoroughly as AB - so it's by no means my final conclusion.

Ahh the Pats have been bottom of the league in available cap space for yrs. They're never really flush with cap space. The only reason they're not in worse shape is because they found a elite QB that's willing to take a massive discount and is pretty much playing yr to yr...if they didn't have a 40+ yr old QB that simply wouldn't be the case.

I mean you're talking about not backloading deals and talking about NE... yet that's exactly what they did with Stephon Gilmore. Dude has had a cap hit of around $9M since 2017. That s**t jumps up to $18.6M next yr. You think they move off him? I don't.

They let dudes go that are good, but aren't elite. Trey Flowers was in no shape or form worth 5yrs $90M that IMO was an easy see ya later move. Trent Brown isn't worth being the highest paid tackle in the NFL. Yes they find scheme fits, but these dudes are still making money.

backloading a deal for your FQB isn't a problem IMO, if you think he's the guy and is young enough it's a no-brainer. That position is a long-term position. Same goes for tackles.

People gotta realize there will be a new CBA soon and it will more than likely result in a higher cap, AB said in 2022 we're looking at having like $125M in cap space. Why not spend some of that future money to help a team that has a window to win now? Not every deal needs to be backloaded either.

I'm NOT all about grooming/developing talent, finally getting to see them play to their potential then letting them walk out the door.

I do understand where you're coming from, but good young talent is more important than having money in the bank. We will have to see what guys like AA/Buck/Ward are looking for....will be interesting.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

I read it. AB is a cap stud. However, he relies on back loading a lot of the deals into the future. I just think that's a recipie for a future cap hell. How the patriots have maintained a super bowl team and still not go though cap hell is amazing. But generally, I think how they have done it is letting go some of their star players, and constantly finding new talent, which is under priced, as compared to players comming into thier 2nd and third contracts which will be priced above the market.

Just some thoughts in the matter, I really haven't thought about it as thoroughly as AB - so it's by no means my final conclusion.

I hear you. The only modern team in the NFL outside of our team originally that has gotten themselves into cap hell is today's Cowboys. They actually were in the red and had 3 huge contracts still left to hand out at the 3 most expensive positions. They've already locked up 2.

And once they resign Dak, it will essentially be proof positive the cap is merely a myth (not really...but it's a "boundary" easily managed around with a myriad of strategies well known today by master capologists).

The bottom line is, if you want to keep a player or players, you can. The cap will not prohibit you from doing it. Other factors will.

Agree, certain systems - it's a plug and play position. The patriots offense being a system that's designed - so it seems - to be cap friendly. Specially on offense. The bottom line is that Bellicheat uses free agency and trades as well as the draft to stay under the cap and beat it.

Bellicheat has found a big portion of their team from underpriced free agents and undrafteds. On top of doing very well though the draft. That's why I question the need to keep *every* star stud we have and risk cap hell, when quite possibly due to Kyle's genius- we may not need to, just like the Patriots.

If you go back to Baalke, one of the biggest criticisms is his inability to replace Delanie Walker and Ginn at the speed positions, but he had to let Walker and Ginn go because of cap issues. What if Kyle can let some of our star players go and replace them with underpriced but just as talented free agents or undrafteds?

I hope we'll find out after another Lombardie.

Originally posted by VaBeachNiner:
Dee Ford should have a big game come Monday if they double team little bear.

How good or bad is Seattle's line, are they still without C Justin Britt? The DL should have a field day against them. Bosa, DeFo, Dee, AA, Jones, Solly, Day, Blair.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by AB81Rules:
No need to let AA walk, we can afford to keep him along with Dee.

Good point, but I'd like a little cap space to accelerate/front load some of our star players like Kittle and Buckner. AA is possibly replaceable by Street or some of the other young players we have on our team. And they have done very well in the later rounds - finding good interior DT's and athletic gap penetrators.

Having said that, I hope we can keep everybody that we need to keep, possibly even including AA.

They can afford all these guys (including Sanders if it's a reasonable contract) buy restructuring Jimmy G (if we think he's the LT guy) and by giving some extensions to Juice/Tarrt (which could lower the cap in 2020).

AB did a whole article explaining the many ways to make it work.

AA is playing at a pro-bowl level, our DL is the bread and butter of this team overall. Street hasn't played any meaningful football in two yrs. Taylor I like, but he's not at the level of AA.

I also don't see SF giving Thomas the 5th yr option. He's more than likely gone after his rookie contract.

Another name they could extend and lower his cap number, thus moving more carryover into 2021 and the future is Sherman. He has a $7M base salary, we can cut that down big time, extend him, like with Juice and Tartt who have high base salaries.

Plus DeFo has a $14.36M salary for 2020, use most of it to form the structure of his long term deal, and use the rest to sign Kittle.

Then redo Jimmy's deal, save $19M, use that on AA, Blair and Sanders, I'm not saying to backload every deal, but backload the big ones like Kittle, AA, and DeFo.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I hear you. The only modern team in the NFL outside of our team originally that has gotten themselves into cap hell is today's Cowboys. They actually were in the red and had 3 huge contracts still left to hand out at the 3 most expensive positions. They've already locked up 2.

And once they resign Dak, it will essentially be proof positive the cap is merely a myth (not really...but it's a "boundary" easily managed around with a myriad of strategies well known today by master capologists).

The bottom line is, if you want to keep a player or players, you can. The cap will not prohibit you from doing it. Other factors will.

Yup and you know how I felt about blowing your wad in FA spending money just to spend it lol

This is a bit different, SF knows what they have in these guys...there's a difference between giving elite money to a FA that's never step foot in your locker room and you've never seen them play in you scheme vs your own.

I think the Giants are a perfect example of "cap hell" and doing it wrong... in 2016 they spent a stupid amount of money on outside talent and really never saw the return on their investment, not even close. Now they've tried to sell off those pieces any way they can and rebuild with a new FO/HC. They didn't have the right pieces in-house (namely QB) and it didn't work out. IMO wrong strategy to build a good team.

SF has the right pieces in place, they've developed these dudes...the whole point is to get them to that second contract and have good young talent. FA should be about adding a piece or two, not rebuilding the whole team with outside players.

As far as the Cowboys go, not every contract is the same. Some dudes have front loaded deals (Jaylon Smith). Some are more back loaded (Tyron Smith). Smith has restructured his deal to give more cap space back in 2016. I don't think that's harmed them in any fashion.

We will see how their cap looks after Dak signs. They have QB/WR/DB all up on deals and while they can make it work, it will hamper them no doubt.

spotrac 2020 estimated market value..

Cooper 5yrs $93M
Dak 5yrs $165M
they didn't do CB contracts yet, BUT I expect Jones to get something similar to Xavien Howard 5yrs $75M

I don't think Jones resigns in Dallas.

Originally posted by AB81Rules:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by AB81Rules:
No need to let AA walk, we can afford to keep him along with Dee.

Good point, but I'd like a little cap space to accelerate/front load some of our star players like Kittle and Buckner. AA is possibly replaceable by Street or some of the other young players we have on our team. And they have done very well in the later rounds - finding good interior DT's and athletic gap penetrators.

Having said that, I hope we can keep everybody that we need to keep, possibly even including AA.

They can afford all these guys (including Sanders if it's a reasonable contract) buy restructuring Jimmy G (if we think he's the LT guy) and by giving some extensions to Juice/Tarrt (which could lower the cap in 2020).

AB did a whole article explaining the many ways to make it work.

AA is playing at a pro-bowl level, our DL is the bread and butter of this team overall. Street hasn't played any meaningful football in two yrs. Taylor I like, but he's not at the level of AA.

I also don't see SF giving Thomas the 5th yr option. He's more than likely gone after his rookie contract.

Another name they could extend and lower his cap number, thus moving more carryover into 2021 and the future is Sherman. He has a $7M base salary, we can cut that down big time, extend him, like with Juice and Tartt who have high base salaries.

Plus DeFo has a $14.36M salary for 2020, use most of it to form the structure of his long term deal, and use the rest to sign Kittle.

Then redo Jimmy's deal, save $19M, use that on AA, Blair and Sanders, I'm not saying to backload every deal, but backload the big ones like Kittle, AA, and DeFo.

totally agree...I see no real harm in backloading deals for good young talent that we feel confident can play well for yrs (especially Kittle/DeFo). I was gonna bring up Sherman as well. I think he's pretty happy here in SF. redoing Jimmy's deal is a no-brainer if we feel he's the FQB.

This is a game where I can see Dee Ford line up offsides on a 3rd down, we sack Wilson only for SEA to get a 1st down via penalty. Dee Ford has been extremely close to the LOS at times.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
totally agree...I see no real harm in backloading deals for good young talent that we feel confident can play well for yrs (especially Kittle/DeFo). I was gonna bring up Sherman as well. I think he's pretty happy here in SF. redoing Jimmy's deal is a no-brainer if we feel he's the FQB.

Yep, Jimmy looked like the QB we all hoped he be on Thursday, he's the reason we won, 4 TDs, over 300 yards passing, you just tack on 2 extra years, and the maximum savings is $19M. With carryover the whole redoing deals isn't a bad thing, when there was no rollover it hurt teams badly.

The Steelers come to mind who are always over the cap, but redo Ben's deal, it helps, sure it pushes money into the future, but you worry about now, not 2-3 years from now.

This team has a serious shot at being really good for the next 5-10 years, and if they get the SB and win it, Lynch and Shanny better get extensions.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

I hear you. The only modern team in the NFL outside of our team originally that has gotten themselves into cap hell is today's Cowboys. They actually were in the red and had 3 huge contracts still left to hand out at the 3 most expensive positions. They've already locked up 2.

And once they resign Dak, it will essentially be proof positive the cap is merely a myth (not really...but it's a "boundary" easily managed around with a myriad of strategies well known today by master capologists).

The bottom line is, if you want to keep a player or players, you can. The cap will not prohibit you from doing it. Other factors will.

Yup and you know how I felt about blowing your wad in FA spending money just to spend it lol

This is a bit different, SF knows what they have in these guys...there's a difference between giving elite money to a FA that's never step foot in your locker room and you've never seen them play in you scheme vs your own.

I think the Giants are a perfect example of "cap hell" and doing it wrong... in 2016 they spent a stupid amount of money on outside talent and really never saw the return on their investment, not even close. Now they've tried to sell off those pieces any way they can and rebuild with a new FO/HC. They didn't have the right pieces in-house (namely QB) and it didn't work out. IMO wrong strategy to build a good team.

SF has the right pieces in place, they've developed these dudes...the whole point is to get them to that second contract and have good young talent. FA should be about adding a piece or two, not rebuilding the whole team with outside players.

As far as the Cowboys go, not every contract is the same. Some dudes have front loaded deals (Jaylon Smith). Some are more back loaded (Tyron Smith). Smith has restructured his deal to give more cap space back in 2016. I don't think that's harmed them in any fashion.

We will see how their cap looks after Dak signs. They have QB/WR/DB all up on deals and while they can make it work, it will hamper them no doubt.

spotrac 2020 estimated market value..

Cooper 5yrs $93M
Dak 5yrs $165M
they didn't do CB contracts yet, BUT I expect Jones to get something similar to Xavien Howard 5yrs $75M

I don't think Jones resigns in Dallas.

Definitely. You can't do anything extreme when rebuilding. You can't rely solely on draft picks and you can't solely rebuild through FA. There really is a delicate balance here. There are times to exercise extreme caution and times to be more aggressive when you see a window open even if it's off schedule (like is right now - Sanders for 2 picks when we already don't have a 2nd). Giants, KC, Bears, Browns...lots of examples of aggressive FA that doesn't always pan out long term. Vikings are the other extreme...all draft picks but eventually had to pay them all plus buy a QB.

I love Geidi's point about systems. The WCO has always been about laying the foundation and finding system-fit players for plug-in-play. Fangio seemed like that during our run too. Now we'll see if Saleh can build the same. If not, no doubt, top resources will continue to be poured into the talent pool. And that can work as long as Kyle keeps the system going on offense. But when top system meets top talent, look out!

Originally posted by StubbyNBY:
I don't think a lot of people realize how valuable he has been even just playing 60% off the defensive snaps. His presence, his big sacks on 3rd Downs. He's been everything I think we could hope for and he seems to be getting healthier & quicker

I believe he's only played 40% of the snaps.

Originally posted by AB81Rules:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by AB81Rules:

No need to let AA walk, we can afford to keep him along with Dee.

Good point, but I'd like a little cap space to accelerate/front load some of our star players like Kittle and Buckner. AA is possibly replaceable by Street or some of the other young players we have on our team. And they have done very well in the later rounds - finding good interior DT's and athletic gap penetrators.

Having said that, I hope we can keep everybody that we need to keep, possibly even including AA.

They can afford all these guys (including Sanders if it's a reasonable contract) buy restructuring Jimmy G (if we think he's the LT guy) and by giving some extensions to Juice/Tarrt (which could lower the cap in 2020).

AB did a whole article explaining the many ways to make it work.

AA is playing at a pro-bowl level, our DL is the bread and butter of this team overall. Street hasn't played any meaningful football in two yrs. Taylor I like, but he's not at the level of AA.

I also don't see SF giving Thomas the 5th yr option. He's more than likely gone after his rookie contract.

Another name they could extend and lower his cap number, thus moving more carryover into 2021 and the future is Sherman. He has a $7M base salary, we can cut that down big time, extend him, like with Juice and Tartt who have high base salaries.

Plus DeFo has a $14.36M salary for 2020, use most of it to form the structure of his long term deal, and use the rest to sign Kittle.

Then redo Jimmy's deal, save $19M, use that on AA, Blair and Sanders, I'm not saying to backload every deal, but backload the big ones like Kittle, AA, and DeFo.

Should we really extend Sherman's contract? We have Witherspoon and E-man. I am curious what the team really think about E-man at this point.

Originally posted by littleken:

Should we really extend Sherman's contract? We have Witherspoon and E-man. I am curious what the team really think about E-man at this point.

Good question. I wouldn't go back to the negotiation table with Sherman. He learns. LOL. But if he's willing, can Paraag get by with adding the annual rip cords in?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by littleken:
Should we really extend Sherman's contract? We have Witherspoon and E-man. I am curious what the team really think about E-man at this point.

Good question. I wouldn't go back to the negotiation table with Sherman. He learns. LOL. But if he's willing, can Paraag get by with adding the annual rip cords in?

I mean you have to look at the market. That's what you're up against. I find it very hard to believe that any team -- particularly a playoff caliber team -- would give Sherman a large multi year deal that had any significant guarantees. When cornerbacks fall off...they fall off quickly. Just like RBs.

Sherman got his money in his career. He just wants to win now. Same with Emmanuel Sanders. So I think a new Sherman deal would like very similar, if not lower, than what he currently has.

You pay for potential, not past performance.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by littleken:

Should we really extend Sherman's contract? We have Witherspoon and E-man. I am curious what the team really think about E-man at this point.

Good question. I wouldn't go back to the negotiation table with Sherman. He learns. LOL. But if he's willing, can Paraag get by with adding the annual rip cords in?

I mean you have to look at the market. That's what you're up against. I find it very hard to believe that any team -- particularly a playoff caliber team -- would give Sherman a large multi year deal that had any significant guarantees. When cornerbacks fall off...they fall off quickly. Just like RBs.

Sherman got his money in his career. He just wants to win now. Same with Emmanuel Sanders. So I think a new Sherman deal would like very similar, if not lower, than what he currently has.

You pay for potential, not past performance.

True. Unfortunately, all the stats are showing he's still a top CB... and he's not paid at that right now. Not even close. The idea of extending him to lower the cap probably isn't going to work this time as he's healthy and producing at a high level. But if he's for it, great!