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Jacksonville Jaguar Arik Armstead-DT Thread

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Originally posted by tjd808185:
Just so people get the point of possibly trading him. AA can be a valuable asset and still be an undesirable Leo. Just because he plays well does mean he's a good fit there. He could find himself having say a 5 sack season playing Leo, rotating behind Solly, Buckner with most of his success coming at his natural spots. He's not going to be our long term Leo though so if someone did call us next year with a good offer yeah you take it. The only way I see Thomas, Buckner, AA working is if Solly becomes the Leo, Buckner 3, AA 5. The fact that we're playing him at Leo really says he's a square in a round hole. Sooner or later he's gone. If you can get a pick for that you do it.

I really want it to work out that Saleh figures out a way to get all three - Buckner, Thomas and AA - as very successful at sacking and pressuring the QB while on the field at same time rushing as a trio. But when you look at the way a 4-3 typically works on passing downs - no NT - it means one of those guys would have to play Leo for all three of them to rushing at the same time. The coaches have evidently decided that Buckner and Thomas are going to be playing the strong side DE and weak side tackle position (maybe flip-flopping regularly) on passing downs. That leaves the Leo for AA. And it sure seems like you are right that AA is too much of a square peg for a round hole. I think AA is a very good square peg but the problem is that there are only two square peg holes and there are two better square pegs to go into those holes.

I think you are right that if AA plays the Leo the way it is typically played and doesn't get at least somewhere around maybe 8-10 or more sacks and pretty consistent quick pressure on the QB then the coaches will probably be looking for a replacement Leo. If that happened, then next year it's likely the staff would look at the possibility of a trade because that may offer more value to the team than having AA as a backup. It's not hard to see him playing well enough that another team would give a third round (maybe even second) draft pick to acquire him. If AA isn't impressive at playing Leo the way it is typically played then that seems to be the more likely thing to happen.

But... there is a less likely thing that could happen. It's probably not likely, but Saleh may "flex" the 4-3 passing defense where the Leo doesn't play in the typical spot for edge rushing - on the outside shoulder of the OT and back off the line a bit. If he can figure out a way to work it, he may be able to get all three of those guys, including AA, to rush the passer from spots where there talents are best utilized. In my fevered imagination I keep trying to figure out how Saleh could do that, but the ideas I come up up with seem too radical to be likely to work. I hope Saleh can figure it out, though.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that AA could turn into a very good Leo as it is typically played. He is smart and a hard worker and so he may be able to pull it off. But based on what we have seen of his play so far, it sure feels less likely than more likely.
Originally posted by 49erphan:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Just so people get the point of possibly trading him. AA can be a valuable asset and still be an undesirable Leo. Just because he plays well does mean he's a good fit there. He could find himself having say a 5 sack season playing Leo, rotating behind Solly, Buckner with most of his success coming at his natural spots. He's not going to be our long term Leo though so if someone did call us next year with a good offer yeah you take it. The only way I see Thomas, Buckner, AA working is if Solly becomes the Leo, Buckner 3, AA 5. The fact that we're playing him at Leo really says he's a square in a round hole. Sooner or later he's gone. If you can get a pick for that you do it.

I really want it to work out that Saleh figures out a way to get all three - Buckner, Thomas and AA - as very successful at sacking and pressuring the QB while on the field at same time rushing as a trio. But when you look at the way a 4-3 typically works on passing downs - no NT - it means one of those guys would have to play Leo for all three of them to rushing at the same time. The coaches have evidently decided that Buckner and Thomas are going to be playing the strong side DE and weak side tackle position (maybe flip-flopping regularly) on passing downs. That leaves the Leo for AA. And it sure seems like you are right that AA is too much of a square peg for a round hole. I think AA is a very good square peg but the problem is that there are only two square peg holes and there are two better square pegs to go into those holes.

I think you are right that if AA plays the Leo the way it is typically played and doesn't get at least somewhere around maybe 8-10 or more sacks and pretty consistent quick pressure on the QB then the coaches will probably be looking for a replacement Leo. If that happened, then next year it's likely the staff would look at the possibility of a trade because that may offer more value to the team than having AA as a backup. It's not hard to see him playing well enough that another team would give a third round (maybe even second) draft pick to acquire him. If AA isn't impressive at playing Leo the way it is typically played then that seems to be the more likely thing to happen.

But... there is a less likely thing that could happen. It's probably not likely, but Saleh may "flex" the 4-3 passing defense where the Leo doesn't play in the typical spot for edge rushing - on the outside shoulder of the OT and back off the line a bit. If he can figure out a way to work it, he may be able to get all three of those guys, including AA, to rush the passer from spots where there talents are best utilized. In my fevered imagination I keep trying to figure out how Saleh could do that, but the ideas I come up up with seem too radical to be likely to work. I hope Saleh can figure it out, though.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that AA could turn into a very good Leo as it is typically played. He is smart and a hard worker and so he may be able to pull it off. But based on what we have seen of his play so far, it sure feels less likely than more likely.

Great post...I think we got some incredible insight into how both Saleh/Z want to use our DL personnel. Rotation every 5 snaps. Therefore, the label and perceived value of a "starter" goes right out the window.

Naturally, Saleh wants to stop the run first and foremost. So I imagine we'll see several bigger packages on running downs and a big time rotation inside on passing downs.

It's a perfect way to ease in Thomas and keep all 3 fresh while their versatility will be on display...good way to use specialists like Blair and Carradine too.

As for this year, if Lynch and Pita can't provide a consistent edge rush at LEO, then AA may be used there more to help bull rush, collapse the pocket and push two inside to allow for various outside stunts (Thomas/Blair) from the 3T.

Saleh will have his work cut out until he gets more prototypical players (next year).
[ Edited by NCommand on Jun 3, 2017 at 11:22 AM ]
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
If he's a successful LEO, wtf would they trade him? I don't get this place.




"I don't like this player so if he plays well I hope the 49ers trade him so they can reach back into the draft and hopefully find someone who can replace him even though the draft is a crapshoot and 50% of 1st rounders wash out."-The Webzone

Ha
Originally posted by NCommand:
I think we got some incredible insight into how both Saleh/Z want to use our DL personnel. Rotation every 5 snaps. Therefore, the label and perceived value of a "starter" goes right out the window.

Naturally, Saleh wants to stop the run first and foremost. So I imagine we'll see several bigger packages on running downs and a big time rotation inside on passing downs.

It's a perfect way to ease in Thomas and keep all 3 fresh while their versatility will be on display...good way to use specialists like Blair and Carradine too.

As for this year, if Lynch and Pita can't provide a consistent edge rush at LEO, then AA may be used there more to help bull rush, collapse the pocket and push two inside to allow for various outside stunts (Thomas/Blair) from the 3T.

Saleh will have his work cut out until he gets more prototypical players (next year).

That sounds quite likely to me. I keep wondering, though, if Saleh may decide to incorporate some interesting and unusual "different" kinds of variations of formations to try to maximize the use of talent. I keep wondering and the answer keeps coming back - we'll have to wait and see. I hope the waiting is worth it.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Just so people get the point of possibly trading him. AA can be a valuable asset and still be an undesirable Leo. Just because he plays well does mean he's a good fit there. He could find himself having say a 5 sack season playing Leo, rotating behind Solly, Buckner with most of his success coming at his natural spots. He's not going to be our long term Leo though so if someone did call us next year with a good offer yeah you take it. The only way I see Thomas, Buckner, AA working is if Solly becomes the Leo, Buckner 3, AA 5. The fact that we're playing him at Leo really says he's a square in a round hole. Sooner or later he's gone. If you can get a pick for that you do it.


Maybe you'd do it, but I sure wouldn't. I would try the big 3 in every combo in the book, plus some that aren't, and find several that work. AA with two good shoulders is a load, and next to Solly and Buck, how do you contain those 3, keeping in mind we also would have DJ or #98 on the LOS also. I think you may be selling these 3 short. I don't trade any of these guys. I think they are going to be one mean bunch...and also are going to line up in some weird sets.
Originally posted by 49erphan:
That sounds quite likely to me. I keep wondering, though, if Saleh may decide to incorporate some interesting and unusual "different" kinds of variations of formations to try to maximize the use of talent. I keep wondering and the answer keeps coming back - we'll have to wait and see. I hope the waiting is worth it.

I hear you...for every Mitchell you need your D.J., for every Buckner, Jones/AA, every Thomas, Blair/Carradine, etc. Then potential edge rushers in Lynch, Harold, Brooks, Pita, etc.

So yeah, even if he stays with the 4-3_under, we could see an array of combinations within it.

From what Saleh noted, it sounds like the SAM personnel we have here has him in line with running the 4-3_under.

But, like you said, he's probably pretty open, in some regards, to morphing this defense as their strengths come into focused. I have no idea what that would look like.
[ Edited by NCommand on Jun 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM ]
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Maybe you'd do it, but I sure wouldn't. I would try the big 3 in every combo in the book, plus some that aren't, and find several that work. AA with two good shoulders is a load, and next to Solly and Buck, how do you contain those 3, keeping in mind we also would have DJ or #98 on the LOS also. I think you may be selling these 3 short. I don't trade any of these guys. I think they are going to be one mean bunch...and also are going to line up in some weird sets.

He's a load but as an edge rusher that's not ideal. The guy barely has 10 sacks in hs, college and pro combined. I don't say that hating on him but his natural positions have been taken and you can't have great long term depth in the NFL with a salary cap. Like NE it's best to be 2 steps ahead. Play it out this year, hope he can show enough flashes to get a good return and then get a real Leo. I do agree we will be able to play the 3 at times and effectively but I'm just hoping he shows enough to get something good in return. Long term this isn't going to end well for him here.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Jun 3, 2017 at 5:54 PM ]
Why is everyone talking about AA as sub leo... There's good odds him or Thomas will play LDE to get them all on the field together . that's the discussion we should be having. Not them as sub leo.
Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:
Why is everyone talking about AA as sub leo... There's good odds him or Thomas will play LDE to get them all on the field together . that's the discussion we should be having. Not them as sub leo.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sub Leo" but on passing plays when the NT goes out and an extra CB comes in that leaves only three positions on the d-line: strong side DE, weak side DT and Leo. If Buckner, Thomas and AA are going to be on the field at the same time on passing plays, then one of them is going to be playing the Leo position.
[ Edited by 49erphan on Jun 4, 2017 at 6:42 AM ]
  • 91til
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Originally posted by 49erphan:
I'm not sure what you mean by "sub Leo" but on passing plays when the NT goes out and an extra CB comes in that leaves only three positions on the d-line: strong side DE, weak side DT and Leo. If Buckner, Thomas and AA are going to be on the field at the same time on passing plays, then one of them is going to be playing the Leo position.

Why can't Buck, Thomas and AA be part of a 4 man D-Line on pass-rush downs (along with Lynch or Pita or whoever) and 1 LB and 6 DBs ?
Originally posted by 91til:
Originally posted by 49erphan:
I'm not sure what you mean by "sub Leo" but on passing plays when the NT goes out and an extra CB comes in that leaves only three positions on the d-line: strong side DE, weak side DT and Leo. If Buckner, Thomas and AA are going to be on the field at the same time on passing plays, then one of them is going to be playing the Leo position.

Why can't Buck, Thomas and AA be part of a 4 man D-Line on pass-rush downs (along with Lynch or Pita or whoever) and 1 LB and 6 DBs ?

I did make it sound like the only choice is that one of the three would have to play Leo, but if you check my postings you'll see that I am not only aware that there are other possibilities, but that I frequently post ramblings about it. Unfortunately, my ramblings about how Saleh could get all three to rush from interior positions on passing downs tend to be long ramblings, so I tried to keep it simple in this response by just stating the most likely case - that on passing downs he will take out a NT and put an extra CB and if he wants Buckner, Thomas and AA on the line at the same time on a passing down, then one of those guys will play Leo.

Your thought of having a LB leave and a CB come in on passing downs is intriguing. It reminds me of one of my postings where I suggested having no Leo on passing downs (or some passing downs). Which LB do you have in mind taking out on passing downs - SAM, Mike or Will? Whenever you pull a player from a position, it weakens the defense in that area. It makes sense to weaken the middle of the d-line by taking out the NT on a passing down because the NT's primary role is to stuff up the middle of the line against a run and on an anticipated passing down a run up the middle is unlikely. But what happens if you take away one of the LBs on a passing down? How would you cover their area of responsibility?
[ Edited by 49erphan on Jun 4, 2017 at 9:37 AM ]
Originally posted by 91til:
Why can't Buck, Thomas and AA be part of a 4 man D-Line on pass-rush downs (along with Lynch or Pita or whoever) and 1 LB and 6 DBs ?

Because the need to use dime package is rare. It's usually only used in prevent situations.
Originally posted by 49erphan:
Originally posted by 91til:
Originally posted by 49erphan:
I'm not sure what you mean by "sub Leo" but on passing plays when the NT goes out and an extra CB comes in that leaves only three positions on the d-line: strong side DE, weak side DT and Leo. If Buckner, Thomas and AA are going to be on the field at the same time on passing plays, then one of them is going to be playing the Leo position.

Why can't Buck, Thomas and AA be part of a 4 man D-Line on pass-rush downs (along with Lynch or Pita or whoever) and 1 LB and 6 DBs ?

I did make it sound like the only choice is that one of the three would have to play Leo, but if you check my postings you'll see that I am not only aware that there are other possibilities, but that I frequently post ramblings about it. Unfortunately, my ramblings about how Saleh could get all three to rush from interior positions on passing downs tend to be long ramblings, so I tried to keep it simple in this response by just stating the most likely case - that on passing downs he will take out a NT and put an extra CB and if he wants Buckner, Thomas and AA on the line at the same time on a passing down, then one of those guys will play Leo.

Your thought of having a LB leave and a CB come in on passing downs is intriguing. It reminds me of one of my postings where I suggested having no Leo on passing downs (or some passing downs). Which LB do you have in mind taking out on passing downs - SAM, Mike or Will? Whenever you pull a player from a position, it weakens the defense in that area. It makes sense to weaken the middle of the d-line by taking out the NT on a passing down because the NT's primary role is to stuff up the middle of the line against a run and on an anticipated passing down a run up the middle is unlikely. But what happens if you take away one of the LBs on a passing down? How would you cover their area of responsibility?

Yeah man..we might need someone to do some visuals for us...whole series of possible lineups for the base 4-3_under to various nickel packages with various personnel.
  • mayo49
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Can't wait to see our new DL this season. I'm jacked.
Originally posted by mayo49:
Can't wait to see our new DL this season. I'm jacked.

Agree but wonder if the LBs are up to the task of catching runs the aggressive line misses? We have some speedy LBs which should help, but when your DL super aggressive they tend to make mistakes...or just be past the RB before they know it. It will still be better than last year with Armstead playing with one arm and Buckner being pushed back by double teams...playing too conservatively.
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