Malik Hooker S Ohio State

Originally posted by jersey49er:

Originally posted by Tylerawiseguy:

I agree the FS in this 4-3 is probably the most important position on the football field and he has the most responsibilities so I say the niners should take malik hooker over jamal adams .... malik hooker has incredible instincts and cover range and his ball skills are incredible . he is a special athlete and every time he touches the ball he has a chance to score .

Wouldn't Adams be a SS in the box in this scheme ? I believe watch LSU his 3 yrs he was a SS, no way he has the ball skills like Hooker..but regardless I can't see a S at 2, not with 3 young safeties including Ward who were drafted 2nd round or earlier, Lynch and Saleh have to be intrigued by them..right ? I'd think so..

Adams seems like more of a fit at SS. But he also seems like he has more traits that Shanny covets. So it's going to be really interesting to watch.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:

Originally posted by jersey49er:

I think the biggest reason you don't go draft a S at 2 is bc Jimmy Ward, Its been said the new staff wants to move him to S and it makes no sense to draft another 1st round safety especially at 2 when you have 3 young guys who you don't know what they can do in this new scheme..lets see what these guys look like In the new scheme before we start replacing them so fast..especially Jimmy Ward who has shown great potential at every position he has played..

You can say that about every position we have.

Don't draft DE at 2 because you have Armstead and want to see what he can do.

Don't draft LB at 2 because you want to see what Bowman, Ray-ray, and Malcolm can do in the new scheme.

Don't draft WR at 2 because I want to see what Garcon and Goodwin can do.

Don't draft a QB at 2 because Kirk Cousins is available next year and the QB class sucks, so lets just waste 2017 with crap QB play and go 4-12.

And frankly speaking, we have like no tape on Jimmie Ward playing safety at the NFL level. There is no guarantee hes even going to do that well. I'm already pretty meh on him as a CB as it is already....

Great post, well said. And about Ward being a "meh" corner: free safeties with range turn "meh" corners into probowlers

Originally posted by Tylerawiseguy:

I guess this one football guy on twitter Benjamin allbright was told that the niners at 2 are very high on malik hooker and jamal adams

He also said Mahomes would be the best QB in the draft, and it isn't close. While I agree that Mahomes will be the best QB in the class, if he's in a good situation, that's not what most of the insiders are reporting, so he might not be that we'll connected.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Yup, Carroll isn't head coach. Sorry you're tired of hearing about it - it's the defensive scheme our head coach chose, so I'd get used to it.

Yup, all those late round picks are amazing. Chancellor is amazing, Sherman is amazing, Browner is amazing, Maxwell is amazing. Yup, sure seems that way. Then ET gets hurt and the whole engine goes to s**t. Why is that? Hm. (I know why - see: value of a Single High Free Safety with elite range).

He wouldn't draft an all pro at 2? For someone who's tired of hearing his name ( get used to it) you sure seem to know what's in his head with no evidence to support it.

As for replacing ETs abilities in the field. All teams have been chasing the magic unicorn that is ET. His elected range makes the whole engine work. No team has found theirs, some think they can "get by" with lesser talent at the single high, and they'll build it "their way".


Lastly, you don't want to draft a safety at 2? Fine, sound argument. But You "agreed" that safety is slightly more valuable than FB? Lawlz.

That defense went to s**t when Kam got hurt, it went to s**t when Bennett got hurt this yr, it went to s**t when Wagner was out as well...That defense dropped a ton when they lost anyone of those core guys, but because Thomas was the last guy to get hurt that's all people think of.

So you honestly think Pete would have drafted earl Thomas at two if that was the pick he had?? If you do I'm calling BS.

You act like Pete was the only guy that's ever ran a 4-3 under...why didn't Bradley spend their top 5 picks on a safety? Why didn't Quinn? Why can't we find our FS later? Why can't Marcus Williams or Buddha baker (who gets compared to Thomas) be the pick? Why can't Ward play the role? He showed he could in college. I feel he's an above avg corner, but could be a much better FS...What's wrong with having a Ricardo Allen type FS which I think Ward can at least be.

I agreed the safety position just isn't as important as a QB, OT, DE, OLB, WR, CB...I do think putting it in the same realm as FB isn't right.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by Tylerawiseguy:

I guess this one football guy on twitter Benjamin allbright was told that the niners at 2 are very high on malik hooker and jamal adams

He also said Mahomes would be the best QB in the draft, and it isn't close. While I agree that Mahomes will be the best QB in the class, if he's in a good situation, that's not what most of the insiders are reporting, so he might not be that we'll connected.

He also said Jimmy g was gonna get traded and McDainels was gonna be our HC.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

You act like Pete was the only guy that's ever ran a 4-3 under...why didn't Bradley spend their top 5 picks on a safety? Why didn't Quinn?

It is only logical to compare our defensive personnel to Pete's as that's who our DC learned under.

Gus Bradley as head coach:
2013: Drafted an OT. A highly touted one. There were no top 5 talents at safety this year, with elite prospects at OT all through the first round. 5 went in top 20. Oh, and 4 safeties did go in on the top 34 picks. Do you think there are any OT in this draft worth a top 5?

2014: took a QB. Do you want a qb at 2 this year?

2015:took arguably the highest rated prospect outside of QB. Randall was the first safety selected, not nearly the talent of hooker or adams.

2016: took the consensus #1 rated prospect.

Quinn:

2015: didn't have a top 5 pick. Took Beasley. Again, no hooker level prospect available.

2016: didn't have a top 5 pick. Did use the first pick on safety.


Just because these coaches didn't take a safety top 5 means nothing...they didn't have talent like hooker available. It's obviously a bit unconventional to take a safety at 2, but how can it possibly be that big of a stretch when pretty much EVERYONE has two safeties going top 10?!

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Great post, well said. And about Ward being a "meh" corner: free safeties with range turn "meh" corners into probowlers

Why is Ward a "meh" corner? Dude was arguably our best corner when healthy and he plays better facing the play. Plenty of ok corners turned into stellar safeties after being switched. Devin McCourty is a great example. Having a guy like Ward on the team and using #2 pick on a free safety with limited experience and health concerns is something that's really a tough sell.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:
Lol. O.K.

We need a shot of realism here. Safety is "The second least relevant position after full back?" And we get an "agreed"?

To get some perspective here, let's look how Carroll built the defense we are trying to build.

• Where does Carroll place value in this system?
• Where does this system need elite high first-round level talent?
• Where is this system able to get by with lower level late-round talent?

Let's go see. Let's look at Carrols defensive draft strategy. Oh, after doing this, do not follow Carroll's offensive draft strategy. Some of the trade he and Schneider made were (Percy Harvin, Jimmy Graham...lols).

Carroll's first draft pick to install his D was not a safety because it's the "second least relevant position after FB." Oh wait. I got that wrong. It indeed was a Single High Free Safety with elite range. He drafted an undersized Safety who had questions about his ability at the "next level" 14th overall. Seems to me, Carroll values the safety. Doesn't it? First Draft pick used to install his Defense: Safety.

Let's look at cornerbacks in the Legion of Boom: any of them drafted in round 1? Nope. 2? Nope. Certainly Round 3. Nope. Round 4! Yep, One - in 2010, Walter Thurmond. After that, the highest he's drafted a Cornerback is round 5. Huh. Doesn't seem to need elite level talent. Wonder why that is ... (no I don't - see: value of a Single High Free Safety with Elite Range.)

How about Box Safety? 5th round 2010, 5th round 2011, 6th round 2012, 6th round 2014. Hm. Doesn't seem to need elite level talent.

So that scheme that has an amazing secondary we're trying to emulate can have late round talent in all positions, except the single high FS? Why is that? (See: value of having a single high FS with elite range.)

So What was Carroll doing defensively with all those other picks in the first four rounds? Front 7. Where did he make his big FA adds? Front 7. He had one other first round pick used on defense. One. Role? Pass rusher. His first pick in a different draft? Pass rusher.

So the two positions that received first round talent on defense? Single High Free Safety, and Passrusher.

"Second least relevant position after fullback."

"Agreed."

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by Lobo49er:
Great post, well said. And about Ward being a "meh" corner: free safeties with range turn "meh" corners into probowlers

Why is Ward a "meh" corner? Dude was arguably our best corner when healthy and he plays better facing the play. Plenty of ok corners turned into stellar safeties after being switched. Devin McCourty is a great example. Having a guy like Ward on the team and using #2 pick on a free safety with limited experience and health concerns is something that's really a tough sell.

Exactly, but seriously i think honestly Ward should've been put at FS from the beginning, should've moved Reid over to SS and never signed Bethea..

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:

It is only logical to compare our defensive personnel to Pete's as that's who our DC learned under.

Gus Bradley as head coach:
2013: Drafted an OT. A highly touted one. There were no top 5 talents at safety this year, with elite prospects at OT all through the first round. 5 went in top 20. Oh, and 4 safeties did go in on the top 34 picks. Do you think there are any OT in this draft worth a top 5?

2014: took a QB. Do you want a qb at 2 this year?

2015:took arguably the highest rated prospect outside of QB. Randall was the first safety selected, not nearly the talent of hooker or adams.

2016: took the consensus #1 rated prospect.

Quinn:

2015: didn't have a top 5 pick. Took Beasley. Again, no hooker level prospect available.

2016: didn't have a top 5 pick. Did use the first pick on safety.


Just because these coaches didn't take a safety top 5 means nothing...they didn't have talent like hooker available. It's obviously a bit unconventional to take a safety at 2, but how can it possibly be that big of a stretch when pretty much EVERYONE has two safeties going top 10?!

Top 10 and #2 overall are vastly different picks. Just look at the history. As good as Earl Thomas is he's not the whole reason for that defenses success. Hooker is also way less experienced than Thomas was and way less proven. And Thomas when it was all said and done wasn't even a top 10 pick.

It's one thing when teams don't have a ton of needs and they can go BPA but our DBs were our strength last year and I'd say our safeties are hell of a lot more impressive than our DL and LB groups.

Only way to grab a safety at #2 in our situation needs to be a 2+ year starter who has no injury or off the field question marks and proven track record. One year wonders at #2 need not apply.

Moving McCourty to safety makes sense when you add Talib to your secondary but when you're just exchanging parts? Now corner becomes a big need. BTW McCourty was also a Pro Bowl corner he's better than Ward.

Budda Baker makes a sh load of sense though. He's a capable center fielder but if we do like Ward at safety he's even better as a slot corner. I'd have no problem with him in the 2nd.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:
Great post, well said. And about Ward being a "meh" corner: free safeties with range turn "meh" corners into probowlers

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Originally posted by Ensatsu:

Originally posted by jersey49er:
I think the biggest reason you don't go draft a S at 2 is bc Jimmy Ward, Its been said the new staff wants to move him to S and it makes no sense to draft another 1st round safety especially at 2 when you have 3 young guys who you don't know what they can do in this new scheme..lets see what these guys look like In the new scheme before we start replacing them so fast..especially Jimmy Ward who has shown great potential at every position he has played..

You can say that about every position we have.

Don't draft DE at 2 because you have Armstead and want to see what he can do.

Don't draft LB at 2 because you want to see what Bowman, Ray-ray, and Malcolm can do in the new scheme.

Don't draft WR at 2 because I want to see what Garcon and Goodwin can do.

Don't draft a QB at 2 because Kirk Cousins is available next year and the QB class sucks, so lets just waste 2017 with crap QB play and go 4-12.

And frankly speaking, we have like no tape on Jimmie Ward playing safety at the NFL level. There is no guarantee hes even going to do that well. I'm already pretty meh on him as a CB as it is already....

Great post, well said. And about Ward being a "meh" corner: free safeties with range turn "meh" corners into probowlers

Didn't Ward play safety at the end of the Tomsula year? He played well...

Originally posted by genus49:

Top 10 and #2 overall are vastly different picks. Just look at the history. As good as Earl Thomas is he's not the whole reason for that defenses success. Hooker is also way less experienced than Thomas was and way less proven. And Thomas when it was all said and done wasn't even a top 10 pick.

It's one thing when teams don't have a ton of needs and they can go BPA but our DBs were our strength last year and I'd say our safeties are hell of a lot more impressive than our DL and LB groups.

Only way to grab a safety at #2 in our situation needs to be a 2+ year starter who has no injury or off the field question marks and proven track record. One year wonders at #2 need not apply.

2 in the top 10, possibly 5 and 7 is no different than #2. For one, it is widely agreed upon that the talent level flattens out this year after Myles G. For two, having not one but two safeties go would imply that 1. These are some damn good safeties, and 2. These safeties are that much better than what you can get in later rounds. If hooker is a good pick at 5, why is he a bad pick at 2? Only thing I can think of is bias for thomas.

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:

2 in the top 10, possibly 5 and 7 is no different than #2. For one, it is widely agreed upon that the talent level flattens out this year after Myles G. For two, having not one but two safeties go would imply that 1. These are some damn good safeties, and 2. These safeties are that much better than what you can get in later rounds. If hooker is a good pick at 5, why is he a bad pick at 2? Only thing I can think of is bias for thomas.

I don't think Hooker is a top 5 player. I think people have a hard on for his potential and his play this year on a pretty talented OSU team. I want to see more out of a top 5 guy and top 10 guy.

Originally posted by genus49:
I don't think Hooker is a top 5 player. I think people have a hard on for his potential and his play this year on a pretty talented OSU team. I want to see more out of a top 5 guy and top 10 guy.

this is a fair argument. I just have to disagree when the only argument is that "oh he's a safety...never at 2!!"