Malik Hooker S Ohio State

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jersey49er:
if its Humphery or Lattimore it would make more sense considering they are CBs and besides RR we haven't seen much talent at the position, Brock is gone after this yr, Redmond is a ?..DJ I like a lot but hasn't been given the PT to show anything, Reaser a good 4-5, Williams supposedly is great in the slot but idk, CB before S makes more sense if Ward is moving to S..

And his draft if full of CBs I mean there are solid starters in the 1st 3 rds imo

Very True, I'm sold on Solomon Thomas at 2 right now if they cant trade it..ive recently seen a mock with Corey Davis going 2nd to the niners..

Originally posted by jersey49er:
I think the biggest reason you don't go draft a S at 2 is bc Jimmy Ward, Its been said the new staff wants to move him to S and it makes no sense to draft another 1st round safety especially at 2 when you have 3 young guys who you don't know what they can do in this new scheme..lets see what these guys look like In the new scheme before we start replacing them so fast..especially Jimmy Ward who has shown great potential at every position he has played..

You can say that about every position we have.

Don't draft DE at 2 because you have Armstead and want to see what he can do.

Don't draft LB at 2 because you want to see what Bowman, Ray-ray, and Malcolm can do in the new scheme.

Don't draft WR at 2 because I want to see what Garcon and Goodwin can do.

Don't draft a QB at 2 because Kirk Cousins is available next year and the QB class sucks, so lets just waste 2017 with crap QB play and go 4-12.

And frankly speaking, we have like no tape on Jimmie Ward playing safety at the NFL level. There is no guarantee hes even going to do that well. I'm already pretty meh on him as a CB as it is already....

I guess this one football guy on twitter Benjamin allbright was told that the niners at 2 are very high on malik hooker and jamal adams

Originally posted by Ensatsu:

Originally posted by jersey49er:

I think the biggest reason you don't go draft a S at 2 is bc Jimmy Ward, Its been said the new staff wants to move him to S and it makes no sense to draft another 1st round safety especially at 2 when you have 3 young guys who you don't know what they can do in this new scheme..lets see what these guys look like In the new scheme before we start replacing them so fast..especially Jimmy Ward who has shown great potential at every position he has played..

You can say that about every position we have.

Don't draft DE at 2 because you have Armstead and want to see what he can do.

Don't draft LB at 2 because you want to see what Bowman, Ray-ray, and Malcolm can do in the new scheme.

Don't draft WR at 2 because I want to see what Garcon and Goodwin can do.

Don't draft a QB at 2 because Kirk Cousins is available next year and the QB class sucks, so lets just waste 2017 with crap QB play and go 4-12.

And frankly speaking, we have like no tape on Jimmie Ward playing safety at the NFL level. There is no guarantee hes even going to do that well. I'm already pretty meh on him as a CB as it is already....

Jimmy Ward and RR have shown more potential then any other players and positions you named and younger, Armstead is young and was hurt so he's a real unknown..but Ray-Ray can be upgraded easily, Bowman was great but unfortunately injuries got him and you can't expect the old him, Garçon is a very good number 2, While Goodman prob won't beat out Kerley in the slot, so he's a 4 if they draft a number 1, so while yes every position can be upgraded I think S is possibly the least needed position if Ward makes the change..

Originally posted by jersey49er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jersey49er:

if its Humphery or Lattimore it would make more sense considering they are CBs and besides RR we haven't seen much talent at the position, Brock is gone after this yr, Redmond is a ?..DJ I like a lot but hasn't been given the PT to show anything, Reaser a good 4-5, Williams supposedly is great in the slot but idk, CB before S makes more sense if Ward is moving to S..

And his draft if full of CBs I mean there are solid starters in the 1st 3 rds imo

Very True, I'm sold on Solomon Thomas at 2 right now if they cant trade it..ive recently seen a mock with Corey Davis going 2nd to the niners..

MAN IM ALL FOR COREY AT 2...WE NEED A WR SOMETHING CRAZYY AND HIS PROTOTYPE DOESNT COME ROUND OFTEN

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by zugschef:

You are talking about a safety. Taking a safety at #2 is absolutely nuts. Who cares about his passion for the game. You just don't draft the second least relevant position after fullback at #2 unless you want to remain on the level of the Browns.

Agreed

Lol. O.K.

We need a shot of realism here. Safety is "The second least relevant position after full back?" And we get an "agreed"?

To get some perspective here, let's look how Carroll built the defense we are trying to build.

• Where does Carroll place value in this system?
• Where does this system need elite high first-round level talent?
• Where is this system able to get by with lower level late-round talent?

Let's go see. Let's look at Carrols defensive draft strategy. Oh, after doing this, do not follow Carroll's offensive draft strategy. Some of the trade he and Schneider made were (Percy Harvin, Jimmy Graham...lols).

Carroll's first draft pick to install his D was not a safety because it's the "second least relevant position after FB." Oh wait. I got that wrong. It indeed was a Single High Free Safety with elite range. He drafted an undersized Safety who had questions about his ability at the "next level" 14th overall. Seems to me, Carroll values the safety. Doesn't it? First Draft pick used to install his Defense: Safety.

Let's look at cornerbacks in the Legion of Boom: any of them drafted in round 1? Nope. 2? Nope. Certainly Round 3. Nope. Round 4! Yep, One - in 2010, Walter Thurmond. After that, the highest he's drafted a Cornerback is round 5. Huh. Doesn't seem to need elite level talent. Wonder why that is ... (no I don't - see: value of a Single High Free Safety with Elite Range.)

How about Box Safety? 5th round 2010, 5th round 2011, 6th round 2012, 6th round 2014. Hm. Doesn't seem to need elite level talent.

So that scheme that has an amazing secondary we're trying to emulate can have late round talent in all positions, except the single high FS? Why is that? (See: value of having a single high FS with elite range.)

So What was Carroll doing defensively with all those other picks in the first four rounds? Front 7. Where did he make his big FA adds? Front 7. He had one other first round pick used on defense. One. Role? Pass rusher. His first pick in a different draft? Pass rusher.


So the two positions that received first round talent on defense? Single High Free Safety, and Passrusher.

"Second least relevant position after fullback."

"Agreed."

FS in the cover 3 is vital. Both CBs are essentially playing soft deep man coverage. That FS is essentially helping both CBs AND responsible for his own 3rd. Earl Thomas has been able to get to the sidelines to help with deep balls due to his closing speed or his recognition ability.

The FS in the cover 3 is the most important position on that 4-3 defense. Why? Because they play 8 in the box which means there's plenty of help against the run. That is why you pair the FS with the Leo to attempt to completely shut down the big plays. 8 in the box makes it crowded for the shorter passes and gives the extra help vs the run.

We have two tall corners that are ideal for this cover 3. We do not have a proven safety who can cover the entire deep field. I would not mind taking the best FS off the board at #2.

I agree the FS in this 4-3 is probably the most important position on the football field and he has the most responsibilities so I say the niners should take malik hooker over jamal adams .... malik hooker has incredible instincts and cover range and his ball skills are incredible . he is a special athlete and every time he touches the ball he has a chance to score .

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by zugschef:

You are talking about a safety. Taking a safety at #2 is absolutely nuts. Who cares about his passion for the game. You just don't draft the second least relevant position after fullback at #2 unless you want to remain on the level of the Browns.

Agreed

Lol. O.K.

We need a shot of realism here. Safety is "The second least relevant position after full back?" And we get an "agreed"?

To get some perspective here, let's look how Carroll built the defense we are trying to build.

• Where does Carroll place value in this system?
• Where does this system need elite high first-round level talent?
• Where is this system able to get by with lower level late-round talent?

Let's go see. Let's look at Carrols defensive draft strategy. Oh, after doing this, do not follow Carroll's offensive draft strategy. Some of the trade he and Schneider made were (Percy Harvin, Jimmy Graham...lols).

Carroll's first draft pick to install his D was not a safety because it's the "second least relevant position after FB." Oh wait. I got that wrong. It indeed was a Single High Free Safety with elite range. He drafted an undersized Safety who had questions about his ability at the "next level" 14th overall. Seems to me, Carroll values the safety. Doesn't it? First Draft pick used to install his Defense: Safety.

Let's look at cornerbacks in the Legion of Boom: any of them drafted in round 1? Nope. 2? Nope. Certainly Round 3. Nope. Round 4! Yep, One - in 2010, Walter Thurmond. After that, the highest he's drafted a Cornerback is round 5. Huh. Doesn't seem to need elite level talent. Wonder why that is ... (no I don't - see: value of a Single High Free Safety with Elite Range.)

How about Box Safety? 5th round 2010, 5th round 2011, 6th round 2012, 6th round 2014. Hm. Doesn't seem to need elite level talent.

So that scheme that has an amazing secondary we're trying to emulate can have late round talent in all positions, except the single high FS? Why is that? (See: value of having a single high FS with elite range.)

So What was Carroll doing defensively with all those other picks in the first four rounds? Front 7. Where did he make his big FA adds? Front 7. He had one other first round pick used on defense. One. Role? Pass rusher. His first pick in a different draft? Pass rusher.


So the two positions that received first round talent on defense? Single High Free Safety, and Passrusher.

"Second least relevant position after fullback."

"Agreed."

So tired of hearing what Peter Carroll does and what he values...last I saw he wasn't the HC

FYI Thomas wasn't even graded out as the best safety on his team last yr that went to Kam. Why can't we go get one of the other great prospects at safety when a safety should be draft? Buddha baker gets compared to Thomas all the time, Marcus Williams is a ball-hawk safety with crazy athletic ability...both have more experience and can be had in the 2nd.

Also regarding Pete Carroll drafting Thomas...you think he would have drafted Thomas at two? I sure as hell don't lol.

Originally posted by Joecool:

FS in the cover 3 is vital. Both CBs are essentially playing soft deep man coverage. That FS is essentially helping both CBs AND responsible for his own 3rd. Earl Thomas has been able to get to the sidelines to help with deep balls due to his closing speed or his recognition ability.

The FS in the cover 3 is the most important position on that 4-3 defense. Why? Because they play 8 in the box which means there's plenty of help against the run. That is why you pair the FS with the Leo to attempt to completely shut down the big plays. 8 in the box makes it crowded for the shorter passes and gives the extra help vs the run.

We have two tall corners that are ideal for this cover 3. We do not have a proven safety who can cover the entire deep field. I would not mind taking the best FS off the board at #2.

Why can't Ward play FS which imo is his most natural position? Just watching college film he's seems to play better with the ball in front of him (11 career INTs) another very important role is the UT in a 4-3 under...we currently have one DL that is worth a damn with a bunch of backups. There's a reason two safeties have been drafted in the top 5 in 20 yrs

Originally posted by Tylerawiseguy:

I agree the FS in this 4-3 is probably the most important position on the football field and he has the most responsibilities so I say the niners should take malik hooker over jamal adams .... malik hooker has incredible instincts and cover range and his ball skills are incredible . he is a special athlete and every time he touches the ball he has a chance to score .

Wouldn't Adams be a SS in the box in this scheme ? I believe watch LSU his 3 yrs he was a SS, no way he has the ball skills like Hooker..but regardless I can't see a S at 2, not with 3 young safeties including Ward who were drafted 2nd round or earlier, Lynch and Saleh have to be intrigued by them..right ? I'd think so..

Originally posted by jersey49er:

Wouldn't Adams be a SS in the box in this scheme ? I believe watch LSU his 3 yrs he was a SS, no way he has the ball skills like Hooker..but regardless I can't see a S at 2, not with 3 young safeties including Ward who were drafted 2nd round or earlier, Lynch and Saleh have to be intrigued by them..right ? I'd think so..

If we're looking at safeties I like baker and Williams in the 2nd...both are starters in this league without question. Both are quick and have great ball skills. I understand they don't get all the recognition as Adams or hooker based on were the played.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by zugschef:

You are talking about a safety. Taking a safety at #2 is absolutely nuts. Who cares about his passion for the game. You just don't draft the second least relevant position after fullback at #2 unless you want to remain on the level of the Browns.

Agreed

Lol. O.K.

We need a shot of realism here. Safety is "The second least relevant position after full back?" And we get an "agreed"?

To get some perspective here, let's look how Carroll built the defense we are trying to build.

• Where does Carroll place value in this system?
• Where does this system need elite high first-round level talent?
• Where is this system able to get by with lower level late-round talent?

Let's go see. Let's look at Carrols defensive draft strategy. Oh, after doing this, do not follow Carroll's offensive draft strategy. Some of the trade he and Schneider made were (Percy Harvin, Jimmy Graham...lols).

Carroll's first draft pick to install his D was not a safety because it's the "second least relevant position after FB." Oh wait. I got that wrong. It indeed was a Single High Free Safety with elite range. He drafted an undersized Safety who had questions about his ability at the "next level" 14th overall. Seems to me, Carroll values the safety. Doesn't it? First Draft pick used to install his Defense: Safety.

Let's look at cornerbacks in the Legion of Boom: any of them drafted in round 1? Nope. 2? Nope. Certainly Round 3. Nope. Round 4! Yep, One - in 2010, Walter Thurmond. After that, the highest he's drafted a Cornerback is round 5. Huh. Doesn't seem to need elite level talent. Wonder why that is ... (no I don't - see: value of a Single High Free Safety with Elite Range.)

How about Box Safety? 5th round 2010, 5th round 2011, 6th round 2012, 6th round 2014. Hm. Doesn't seem to need elite level talent.

So that scheme that has an amazing secondary we're trying to emulate can have late round talent in all positions, except the single high FS? Why is that? (See: value of having a single high FS with elite range.)

So What was Carroll doing defensively with all those other picks in the first four rounds? Front 7. Where did he make his big FA adds? Front 7. He had one other first round pick used on defense. One. Role? Pass rusher. His first pick in a different draft? Pass rusher.


So the two positions that received first round talent on defense? Single High Free Safety, and Passrusher.

"Second least relevant position after fullback."

"Agreed."

So tired of hearing what Peter Carroll does and what he values...last I saw he wasn't the HC

FYI Thomas wasn't even graded out as the best safety on his team last yr that went to Kam. Why can't we go get one of the other great prospects at safety when a safety should be draft? Buddha baker gets compared to Thomas all the time, Marcus Williams is a ball-hawk safety with crazy athletic ability...both have more experience and can be had in the 2nd.

Also regarding Pete Carroll drafting Thomas...you think he would have drafted Thomas at two? I sure as hell don't lol.

Yup, Carroll isn't head coach. Sorry you're tired of hearing about it - it's the defensive scheme our head coach chose, so I'd get used to it.

Yup, all those late round picks are amazing. Chancellor is amazing, Sherman is amazing, Browner is amazing, Maxwell is amazing. Yup, sure seems that way. Then ET gets hurt and the whole engine goes to s**t. Why is that? Hm. (I know why - see: value of a Single High Free Safety with elite range).

He wouldn't draft an all pro at 2? For someone who's tired of hearing his name ( get used to it) you sure seem to know what's in his head with no evidence to support it.

As for replacing ETs abilities in the field. All teams have been chasing the magic unicorn that is ET. His elected range makes the whole engine work. No team has found theirs, some think they can "get by" with lesser talent at the single high, and they'll build it "their way".


Lastly, you don't want to draft a safety at 2? Fine, sound argument. But You "agreed" that safety is slightly more valuable than FB? Lawlz.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Joecool:

FS in the cover 3 is vital. Both CBs are essentially playing soft deep man coverage. That FS is essentially helping both CBs AND responsible for his own 3rd. Earl Thomas has been able to get to the sidelines to help with deep balls due to his closing speed or his recognition ability.

The FS in the cover 3 is the most important position on that 4-3 defense. Why? Because they play 8 in the box which means there's plenty of help against the run. That is why you pair the FS with the Leo to attempt to completely shut down the big plays. 8 in the box makes it crowded for the shorter passes and gives the extra help vs the run.

We have two tall corners that are ideal for this cover 3. We do not have a proven safety who can cover the entire deep field. I would not mind taking the best FS off the board at #2.

Why can't Ward play FS which imo is his most natural position? Just watching college film he's seems to play better with the ball in front of him (11 career INTs) another very important role is the UT in a 4-3 under...we currently have one DL that is worth a damn with a bunch of backups. There's a reason two safeties have been drafted in the top 5 in 20 yrs

Because when you see Ward, you think "that's Earl Thomas!" Really? Like, really?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jersey49er:

Wouldn't Adams be a SS in the box in this scheme ? I believe watch LSU his 3 yrs he was a SS, no way he has the ball skills like Hooker..but regardless I can't see a S at 2, not with 3 young safeties including Ward who were drafted 2nd round or earlier, Lynch and Saleh have to be intrigued by them..right ? I'd think so..

If we're looking at safeties I like baker and Williams in the 2nd...both are starters in this league without question. Both are quick and have great ball skills. I understand they don't get all the recognition as Adams or hooker based on were the played.

No one knows who is a starter, so "without question" is a little silly.

Both seem like nice players. Neither made me say "look, that's Earl Thomas." Hooker did.