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Solomon Thomas--Stanford

Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Well I don't think he does so that's where we differ.
Originally posted by genus49:
I agree we need to be smart but when you try to put need above BPA it bites you in the ass more times than not.

Would you take an impact safety or impact DLman all else being equal?

Now add the fact that our defense was dead last last year and we couldn't stop the run or rush the passer, all while our secondary was actually decent despite that terrible pass rush.

Who makes a bigger impact on this team long term? Do you add what many consider a sure thing to the stronger part of our defense or the weakest?

Thomas stands out in pretty much every phase of the game on and off the field. What Adams can do in the secondary Thomas can do on the DLine. This kid is a teddy bear off the field and a grizzly bear on it. That's infectious.

Yes it may push other needs down but this isn't a short term fix. But if you draft BPA and hit on those picks eventually your roster is going to be stacked. You can find ways to fill in the gaps and you can't address all your needs in one offseason.

The safety in this scheme is an in the box safety. Adams is a monster at stopping the run. Watch his hilites. He is as big a disruptive presence as Thomas is and actually fills a need.

Take Kam Chancellor off Seattle and their run D is all of a sudden average.

Can you tell me without looking who Seattle's UT is??
[ Edited by SteveYoung on Mar 22, 2017 at 10:37 AM ]
Originally posted by tjd808185:
He never made the Pro Bowl, never was All pro there it's not me who downgraded him. They were terrible though.

Who gives a f**k? He made players around him better and at the time had dog s**t around him. He ended his career as a 5x pro bowler and 2x all pro...such a horrible rebutted.
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Mar 22, 2017 at 10:38 AM ]
1988 & 1989 Front 4: George Seifert 3-4/4-3 Under
LDE/5T Larry Roberts/Pierce Holt - 6.0/10.5 sacks
NT/1T Michael Carter - 6.5 sacks
RDE/3T Kevin f*gan - 3.0/7.0 sacks
SAM/ELEPHANT/LEO Charles Haley - 11.5/10.5 sacks

Today, this is how Seattle ran/runs it. You'll see a ton of interchangeables...like Bruce Irvin starting out at RDE and moving to the SAM (8 sacks), something I'm predicting Eli Harold will be tasked with this year, your fatty 2-gap wide-bodied NT (hence why we went after Brandon Williams), adding another scheme-fit player in Mitchell (slashing 3T), etc.

If we select Thomas, many are projecting him to play RDT/3T and then sliding him out to the LEO in nickel/dime.

LDE/5T DeForest Buckner/Chris Jones (6.0/10.5 sacks)
NT/1T Quinton Dial/Mike Purcell/Earl Mitchell (6.5/0.0 sacks)
RDE/3T Solomon Thomas/Arik Armstead/Ronald Blair/Earl Mitchell (3.0/7.0 sacks)
SAM/ELEPHANT/LEO Eli Harold/Ahmad Brooks (11.5/10.5 sacks)

Here's a nice breakdown of this defense and the type of prototypical players who fit.

The 4-3 Under, in it's simplest terms, is a gap control system meant to stop the run and to pressure the passer. For the most part, each lineman and linebacker is responsible for one gap - this makes each player's responsibility fairly cut and dry and eliminates a lot of the reads and thinking from the game. Now, the 4-3 Under can be run with 2-gapping personnel as well, and that was something that we saw Red Bryant and Colin Cole doing when they were healthy in 2010, but it really depends on if you have the horses to 2-gap or 1-gap in this system.

As a refresher, here is how the gap and defensive alignment system works.



You see the offensive line on the bottom of that picture as T, G, C, G, T, E. The space between each offensive lineman is a lettered gap. The A gaps are to each side of the center. The B gaps are to the outside shoulder of the guards. The C gaps are to outside shoulder of the tackles. The D gap is on the outside shoulder of a tight end, if he's there.

Similarly, the 'technique' numbering system designates where each defensive lineman lines himself up in relation to the offensive player. As you can see above, an even number 'technique' (0, 2, 4, 6) denotes that a defensive player is lined up helmet to helmet with the opposing offensive player. An odd number denotes that a defensive player is to line up offset from the offensive player. You may hear a lot about the 1-technique, the 3-technique, and the 5-technique in the Seahawks defense. I'll explain each of those as we go along.

In the late 1980's, Monte Kiffin began coaching for the Minnesota Vikings with a coach named Floyd Peters and they further developed the 4-3 Under that emphasized rushing the passer. The 4-3 Under system uses almost exclusively a staggered alignment to the offense in this basic set.



As you can see, in a basic 4-3 Under, the SAM linebacker is lined up to the outside shoulder of the tight end off the line of scrimmage a yard or two and is responsible for the D gap (to the outside of the tight end). He's also responsible for running in pass coverage from time to time. The strongside defensive end is lined up to the outside shoulder of the tackle, in a 5-technique alignment, and is responsible for the C gap (to the right of the tackle). The strongside defensive tackle is usually lined up shading the center in a 1-technique alignment and is responsible for the strongside A gap. The weakside defensive tackle is lined up in a 3-technique alignment off the weakside guard and is responsible for the weakside B gap in front of him. The weakside defensive end is lined up to the outside shoulder of the weakside offensive tackle and is responsible for the C gap on his side.

This leaves the strongside B gap and the weakside A gap open. These are the responsibilities of the MIKE and WILL linebackers.

The 4-3 Under can be run with any combination of secondary assignments, the Cover-1, Cover-2, Cover-3, and even the Cover-4, and the Seahawks run different zone coverages at different times. The number in each "Cover" represents how many players are responsible in zone for the deep part of the field. In a Cover-1, the deep middle safety is responsible as help for the entire deep field, while all the other players are in man coverage. In a Cover-2, there are two safeties and they split the deep part of the field into two zones and help on routes in their zone. Cover three, one safety and two corners have 1/3 of the field as their respective zones. In Cover-4, also known as Quarters, the field is divided into four zones and each of the 4 defensive backs is responsible for his zone. In a Cover-0, each player is on a man and there is no zone help anywhere on the field.

The other coverage you see the Hawks run is called the Tampa-2, which I'll delve into further a little later.

The defense that Pete Carroll now employs uses the basic tenets of the Monte Kiffin 4-3 Under defense and mixes in a variation originally pioneered by the legendary George Seifert in San Francisco. Seifert wanted to create mismatches against the opposing offensive line so he started using his weakside defensive end to rove around and rush the passer from a two-point stance (standing up position). This was the beginning of the "Elephant" position and one that Carroll uses today. We also see this position called the LEO, and in the Hawks' defense can rush standing up or in a three-point stance.



It's the same basic alignment but as you can see, the SAM linebacker comes up closer to the line to play hard contain and the weakside LEO is pushed out a bit, maybe a yard off of the weakside tackle. The LEO's main job is to control the C gap while rushing the passer like a wild banshee and the SAM plays contain against the TE, runs in pass coverage with him, or rushes the passer in some situations.

Here is the basic description of each position in the Pete Carroll 4-3 Under. In a continuing series, I'll get into more specifics about it, but I'll start you out with a general description. The LEO can be a little bit smaller than a normal DE and Pete Carroll tends to like a more athletic and versatile body type for his Elephant position; a guy that can speed rush the QB but also react quick enough to control his gap. Must also be able to drop back into coverage occasionally in zone blitz situations.

The strongside defensive tackle can be short and squat but must be able to take on a double team consistently. The weakside defensive tackle, the 3-tech, must be your premiere interior pass rusher and have an explosive first step. His main job is to pressure the QB and stop the run in his weakside B gap. The 5-tech defensive end can be a bigger guy and must be great against the run. This is why you saw Red Bryant move out there in 2010.

The SAM linebacker needs to be athletic and rangy; great against the run but able to run with tight ends and running backs in pass coverage. The WILL linebacker is going to get a lot of tackles and in Pete's system is typically a faster, smaller linebacker with range. The MIKE linebacker needs to be the field general; very instinctual and savvy. He needs to be quick enough to drop back down the middle third of the field in pass coverage in the Tampa-2 coverage. The free safety is a guy that's going to move around a lot and be very instinctual as well. He's going to come up to the line a lot and will get a lot of tackles. The strong safety has to be good against the run but like the free safety, will move around a lot and have to defend against the deep pass a lot. He will need to be fast and have some ball skills.

Finally, the cornerbacks need to be physical and long. They will get involved in run defense a lot so they must be good tacklers. They are protected over the top a lot of the time so typically they're not all-world defenders but need to be pretty fast. You see Pete running with solid, physical and tall corners but in his tenure at USC we didn't see any all-world prospects come into the NFL.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31/2191847/the-pete-carroll-4-3-under-defense-part-i-an-introduction

You can guestimate that both Saleh and Lynch are looking for system-fit players like we saw with Kyle on offense. We grabbed a couple already in Smith (WILL) & Mitchell (RDT/3T/Rotation) and with the resigning of Chris Jones (LDE/5T).

Based on this, Buckner is your prototypical LDE/5T; someone who's excellent against the run and can add some additional pass rush. He's made for this spot. Quinton Dial is not your ideal NT/1T but he is the best NT on the team for the moment; we need a Carter/Stubblefield. Given how we went after Brandon Williams, my guess is, we'll look for another wide-bodied NT in this draft as well. Solomon Thomas is your absolute ideal, prototypical RDT/3T. His slashing, instincts, anticipation, get-off, closing speed, and swim move reminds me of Bryant Young. That said, he's no LEO. I'd have him gain 15-20 pounds and focus on the 3T. That takes us to LEO. Lynch is not a LEO either...he is not a smaller, speed rusher, who's bendy and has an array of pass rush moves. That has to be a huge target in this draft. The defense is built around this position. Literally. One position I see intriguing in the SAM. Bruce Irvin made the transition from DE to SAM and with Harold's speed, athleticism and familiarity in stopping the run up at the LOS and with some occasional drop back experience, he might just be the guy. He can also add 'some' pass rush too. Keep your eye on an excellent cover guy in Ray-Ray as well. If he can prove to be an excellent run defender and add some additional pass rush, he could win that job too. This position won't be covering just TE's but speedy RB's so both Harold/Ray-Ray need speed and they have it for this position. Naturally, Bowman and Smith are prototypical MIKE and WILL's. But with Bowman's injuries, it's no surprise we've met with Foster.

What do you do about Armstead, Mitchell, Jones & Blair? Rotation, rotation, rotation. That's the under stated success behind this defense. That, and a heavy rotation of true pass rushers at both DE and SAM spots (3 or 4 at least).

LDE/5T: DeForest Bucker
NT/1T: Quinton Dial
RDT/3T: Solomon Thomas
RDE/LEO: Aaron Lynch
SAM: Eli Harold/Ray-Ray Armstrong
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Malcolm Smith
[ Edited by NCommand on Mar 22, 2017 at 10:48 AM ]
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Read this. It sums up everything that I have been saying.

http://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/22/espns-mel-kiper-taps-hot-name-to-49ers-in-mock-nfl-draft/

Jamal Adams will be the pick. He checks all the boxes and we won't have to fit a square peg in a round hole with him. Book it


Thomas is suited best as a 3-4 defensive tackle. And even then, he needs to gain weight to hold up there in the NFL. He appears to have the frame and skill set to be good in that role. He's great at shooting gaps and gaining leverage against guards and centers.

But he doesn't look like a player that should kick outside, where flexibility, multiple pass-rushing moves and length are needed – particularly when talking about a player getting taken second overall that weighs in the 270s. He's not built to play in space, he's built to occupy blockers. And those kind of players aren't top-five picks.


Originally posted by NYniner85:
Who gives a f**k? He made players around him better and at the time had dog s**t around him. He ended his career as a 5x pro bowler and 2x all pro...such a horrible rebutted.

If he made players better why did they suck every year? He was solid on a horrible d.
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Read this. It sums up everything that I have been saying.

http://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/22/espns-mel-kiper-taps-hot-name-to-49ers-in-mock-nfl-draft/

Jamal Adams will be the pick. He checks all the boxes and we won't have to fit a square peg in a round hole with him. Book it

We've already covered this article a bunch. His point is flawed and so is the thought process of "give this guy a chance to prove what he can do"

It would make sense if Baalke was still GM, he'd want to give his guys time to prove what they can do. New front office staff and new coaches have no attachments to the guys drafted by Baalke. They're in a performance business with no attachments. Injuries don't excuse anyone, you don't produce then you don't produce. Armstead has very limited tape for 2 years and a fairly high draft pick. He's not a great fit for the new scheme. Do they take a chance that he finally lives up to the potential he showed another front office and somehow fits a new defense...or do they take a guy who shows every trait they have said they value in players?

And once again, DL >>>>>> WR in terms of impact on the game. So many want to bring up the Lions situation in this case but it doesnt apply at all. Especially when you consider the fact that their best pick was after they were laughed at for going WR 3 years in a row.
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
The safety in this scheme is an in the box safety. Adams is a monster at stopping the run. Watch his hilites. He is as big a disruptive presence as Thomas is and actually fills a need.

Take Kam Chancellor off Seattle and their run D is all of a sudden average.

Can you tell me without looking who Seattle's UT is??

Chancellor is awesome but if you want to use a #2 overall pick on an in the box safety then I don't know what else I can say here.
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Well I don't think he does so that's where we differ.

We won't rotate if we don't have to. Buckner played 90% of the snaps last year. The only rotating in this scheme is the NT comes out on passing downs and the LDE (Buckner) slides inside and another edge rusher comes in to play the strong side.

Why can't he explain? Why wouldn't we rotate? Buck played too many snaps last yr and the reason he played so much is because our DL is trash
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Read this. It sums up everything that I have been saying.

http://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/22/espns-mel-kiper-taps-hot-name-to-49ers-in-mock-nfl-draft/

Jamal Adams will be the pick. He checks all the boxes and we won't have to fit a square peg in a round hole with him. Book it


Thomas is suited best as a 3-4 defensive tackle. And even then, he needs to gain weight to hold up there in the NFL. He appears to have the frame and skill set to be good in that role. He's great at shooting gaps and gaining leverage against guards and centers.

But he doesn't look like a player that should kick outside, where flexibility, multiple pass-rushing moves and length are needed – particularly when talking about a player getting taken second overall that weighs in the 270s. He's not built to play in space, he's built to occupy blockers. And those kind of players aren't top-five picks.



After going back and watching game film, I am even more against drafting Thomas, he's a very good 3tech, but when he was put on the outside, he wasn't nearly as good. Barnett is a much better choice as a Leo, which is what we need, not another guy on the inside. If we needed another 3tech, I'd be all for grabbing him, but we don't, so I'm not.
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
I can see him getting up into the low to mid 280's and still being pretty athletic at that size.

He's already bigger than this guy was coming into the NFL.








Justin Smith was a DE. Not a DT. Big difference.

Guys in here are saying he can be a UT in this scheme and I can't see it. If anything he is a DE on the strong side like Justin Smith was. Problem is, that's where Deforest is playing.

He was a DE in name only because he played the 5 tech in a 3-4.....You do realize he made the pro-bowl as both a DT and DE because of that, right?? When we were in "nickel" 70% of the time Cowboy was inside as a DT.

I ask, why can't he be the "LEO"?? That's where Michael Bennett plays, most of the time, and he's nearly the exact same height, weight, arm length and is darn near unblockable, at times, in pass rush. If Bennet hadn't been there in the SB against NE it would've been a blowout. The only problem NE had in that game was Bennett.

Thomas is a guy who has not only shown top tier athleticism, but also a relentless motor.

Originally posted by NCommand:
1988 & 1989 Front 4: George Seifert 3-4/4-3 Under
LDE/5T Larry Roberts/Pierce Holt - 6.0/10.5 sacks
NT/1T Michael Carter - 6.5 sacks
RDE/3T Kevin f*gan - 3.0/7.0 sacks
SAM/ELEPHANT/LEO Charles Haley - 11.5/10.5 sacks

Today, this is how Seattle ran/runs it. You'll see a ton of interchangeables...like Bruce Irvin starting out at RDE and moving to the SAM (8 sacks), something I'm predicting Eli Harold will be tasked with this year, your fatty 2-gap wide-bodied NT (hence why we went after Brandon Williams), adding another scheme-fit player in Mitchell (slashing 3T), etc.

If we select Thomas, many are projecting him to play RDT/3T and then sliding him out to the LEO in nickel/dime.

LDE/5T DeForest Buckner/Chris Jones (6.0/10.5 sacks)
NT/1T Quinton Dial/Mike Purcell/Earl Mitchell (6.5/0.0 sacks)
RDE/3T Solomon Thomas/Arik Armstead/Ronald Blair/Earl Mitchell (3.0/7.0 sacks)
SAM/ELEPHANT/LEO Eli Harold/Ahmad Brooks (11.5/10.5 sacks)

Here's a nice breakdown of this defense and the type of prototypical players who fit.

The 4-3 Under, in it's simplest terms, is a gap control system meant to stop the run and to pressure the passer. For the most part, each lineman and linebacker is responsible for one gap - this makes each player's responsibility fairly cut and dry and eliminates a lot of the reads and thinking from the game. Now, the 4-3 Under can be run with 2-gapping personnel as well, and that was something that we saw Red Bryant and Colin Cole doing when they were healthy in 2010, but it really depends on if you have the horses to 2-gap or 1-gap in this system.

As a refresher, here is how the gap and defensive alignment system works.



You see the offensive line on the bottom of that picture as T, G, C, G, T, E. The space between each offensive lineman is a lettered gap. The A gaps are to each side of the center. The B gaps are to the outside shoulder of the guards. The C gaps are to outside shoulder of the tackles. The D gap is on the outside shoulder of a tight end, if he's there.

Similarly, the 'technique' numbering system designates where each defensive lineman lines himself up in relation to the offensive player. As you can see above, an even number 'technique' (0, 2, 4, 6) denotes that a defensive player is lined up helmet to helmet with the opposing offensive player. An odd number denotes that a defensive player is to line up offset from the offensive player. You may hear a lot about the 1-technique, the 3-technique, and the 5-technique in the Seahawks defense. I'll explain each of those as we go along.

In the late 1980's, Monte Kiffin began coaching for the Minnesota Vikings with a coach named Floyd Peters and they further developed the 4-3 Under that emphasized rushing the passer. The 4-3 Under system uses almost exclusively a staggered alignment to the offense in this basic set.



As you can see, in a basic 4-3 Under, the SAM linebacker is lined up to the outside shoulder of the tight end off the line of scrimmage a yard or two and is responsible for the D gap (to the outside of the tight end). He's also responsible for running in pass coverage from time to time. The strongside defensive end is lined up to the outside shoulder of the tackle, in a 5-technique alignment, and is responsible for the C gap (to the right of the tackle). The strongside defensive tackle is usually lined up shading the center in a 1-technique alignment and is responsible for the strongside A gap. The weakside defensive tackle is lined up in a 3-technique alignment off the weakside guard and is responsible for the weakside B gap in front of him. The weakside defensive end is lined up to the outside shoulder of the weakside offensive tackle and is responsible for the C gap on his side.

This leaves the strongside B gap and the weakside A gap open. These are the responsibilities of the MIKE and WILL linebackers.

The 4-3 Under can be run with any combination of secondary assignments, the Cover-1, Cover-2, Cover-3, and even the Cover-4, and the Seahawks run different zone coverages at different times. The number in each "Cover" represents how many players are responsible in zone for the deep part of the field. In a Cover-1, the deep middle safety is responsible as help for the entire deep field, while all the other players are in man coverage. In a Cover-2, there are two safeties and they split the deep part of the field into two zones and help on routes in their zone. Cover three, one safety and two corners have 1/3 of the field as their respective zones. In Cover-4, also known as Quarters, the field is divided into four zones and each of the 4 defensive backs is responsible for his zone. In a Cover-0, each player is on a man and there is no zone help anywhere on the field.

The other coverage you see the Hawks run is called the Tampa-2, which I'll delve into further a little later.

The defense that Pete Carroll now employs uses the basic tenets of the Monte Kiffin 4-3 Under defense and mixes in a variation originally pioneered by the legendary George Seifert in San Francisco. Seifert wanted to create mismatches against the opposing offensive line so he started using his weakside defensive end to rove around and rush the passer from a two-point stance (standing up position). This was the beginning of the "Elephant" position and one that Carroll uses today. We also see this position called the LEO, and in the Hawks' defense can rush standing up or in a three-point stance.



It's the same basic alignment but as you can see, the SAM linebacker comes up closer to the line to play hard contain and the weakside LEO is pushed out a bit, maybe a yard off of the weakside tackle. The LEO's main job is to control the C gap while rushing the passer like a wild banshee and the SAM plays contain against the TE, runs in pass coverage with him, or rushes the passer in some situations.

Here is the basic description of each position in the Pete Carroll 4-3 Under. In a continuing series, I'll get into more specifics about it, but I'll start you out with a general description. The LEO can be a little bit smaller than a normal DE and Pete Carroll tends to like a more athletic and versatile body type for his Elephant position; a guy that can speed rush the QB but also react quick enough to control his gap. Must also be able to drop back into coverage occasionally in zone blitz situations.

The strongside defensive tackle can be short and squat but must be able to take on a double team consistently. The weakside defensive tackle, the 3-tech, must be your premiere interior pass rusher and have an explosive first step. His main job is to pressure the QB and stop the run in his weakside B gap. The 5-tech defensive end can be a bigger guy and must be great against the run. This is why you saw Red Bryant move out there in 2010.

The SAM linebacker needs to be athletic and rangy; great against the run but able to run with tight ends and running backs in pass coverage. The WILL linebacker is going to get a lot of tackles and in Pete's system is typically a faster, smaller linebacker with range. The MIKE linebacker needs to be the field general; very instinctual and savvy. He needs to be quick enough to drop back down the middle third of the field in pass coverage in the Tampa-2 coverage. The free safety is a guy that's going to move around a lot and be very instinctual as well. He's going to come up to the line a lot and will get a lot of tackles. The strong safety has to be good against the run but like the free safety, will move around a lot and have to defend against the deep pass a lot. He will need to be fast and have some ball skills.

Finally, the cornerbacks need to be physical and long. They will get involved in run defense a lot so they must be good tacklers. They are protected over the top a lot of the time so typically they're not all-world defenders but need to be pretty fast. You see Pete running with solid, physical and tall corners but in his tenure at USC we didn't see any all-world prospects come into the NFL.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31/2191847/the-pete-carroll-4-3-under-defense-part-i-an-introduction

You can guestimate that both Saleh and Lynch are looking for system-fit players like we saw with Kyle on offense. We grabbed a couple already in Smith (WILL) & Mitchell (RDT/3T/Rotation) and with the resigning of Chris Jones (LDE/5T).

Based on this, Buckner is your prototypical LDE/5T; someone who's excellent against the run and can add some additional pass rush. He's made for this spot. Quinton Dial is not your ideal NT/1T but he is the best NT on the team for the moment; we need a Carter/Stubblefield. Given how we went after Brandon Williams, my guess is, we'll look for another wide-bodied NT in this draft as well. Solomon Thomas is your absolute ideal, prototypical RDT/3T. His slashing, instincts, anticipation, get-off, closing speed, and swim move reminds me of Bryant Young. That said, he's no LEO. I'd have him gain 15-20 pounds and focus on the 3T. That takes us to LEO. Lynch is not a LEO either...he is not a smaller, speed rusher, who's bendy and has an array of pass rush moves. That has to be a huge target in this draft. The defense is built around this position. Literally. One position I see intriguing in the SAM. Bruce Irvin made the transition from DE to SAM and with Harold's speed, athleticism and familiarity in stopping the run up at the LOS and with some occasional drop back experience, he might just be the guy. He can also add 'some' pass rush too. Keep your eye on an excellent cover guy in Ray-Ray as well. If he can prove to be an excellent run defender and add some additional pass rush, he could win that job too. This position won't be covering just TE's but speedy RB's so both Harold/Ray-Ray need speed and they have it for this position. Naturally, Bowman and Smith are prototypical MIKE and WILL's. But with Bowman's injuries, it's no surprise we've met with Foster.

What do you do about Armstead, Mitchell, Jones & Blair? Rotation, rotation, rotation. That's the under stated success behind this defense. That, and a heavy rotation of true pass rushers at both DE and SAM spots (3 or 4 at least).

LDE/5T: DeForest Bucker
NT/1T: Quinton Dial
RDT/3T: Solomon Thomas
RDE/LEO: Aaron Lynch
SAM: Eli Harold/Ray-Ray Armstrong
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Malcolm Smith

Get out of my head! I just said the same thing (of course far less eloquently).

Originally posted by Lobo49er:
If Thomas is the pick, and he's starting, then this is our line in base, or I will throw a really big internet hissy fit.

5T: Buckner/AA/Mitchell/Dial
NT: FA or Drafted FAT immovable 2gapper(hope for 2)
3T: Thomas/AA/Mitchell/Blair
Leo: Sigh...One of these goobers needs to step up: Lynch, Eli, Tank (or draft pick)
Originally posted by genus49:

And once again, DL >>>>>> WR in terms of impact on the game. So many want to bring up the Lions situation in this case but it doesnt apply at all. Especially when you consider the fact that their best pick was after they were laughed at for going WR 3 years in a row.

Uh, no, not at all actually. Not in a WCO. With Solomon at 3T and Williams/Davis at ZWR, one could easily make the argument the Z is far more important to making the entire OFFENSE go vs. a 3T where heavy rotation is standard in this defense.

We, literally, have a vacant spot at the Z and that player would be on the field the full 1,100+ snaps a year.
[ Edited by NCommand on Mar 22, 2017 at 10:53 AM ]
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
He never made the Pro Bowl, never was All pro there it's not me who downgraded him. They were terrible though.

Who gives a f**k? He made players around him better and at the time had dog s**t around him. He ended his career as a 5x pro bowler and 2x all pro...such a horrible rebutted.

How can anyone knock Justin smith?? lol absurd! the guy played the game the right way and was a force to be reckoned with!

One of the most dominate Niners in history, at leas the last 30 years.

I would love to have another player just like him! People get too caught up in "stats", even J. Smith said stats are for losers. His position wasn't one that garnered much flashiness, but made a big difference in the game.

btw we didn't give him a massive contract in free agency cause he was some scrub. That was one of the largest contracts we had given out, and ended up being one of the best FA we have signed.
Originally posted by NCommand:
1988 & 1989 Front 4: George Seifert 3-4/4-3 Under
LDE/5T Larry Roberts/Pierce Holt - 6.0/10.5 sacks
NT/1T Michael Carter - 6.5 sacks
RDE/3T Kevin f*gan - 3.0/7.0 sacks
SAM/ELEPHANT/LEO Charles Haley - 11.5/10.5 sacks

Today, this is how Seattle ran/runs it. You'll see a ton of interchangeables...like Bruce Irvin starting out at RDE and moving to the SAM (8 sacks), something I'm predicting Eli Harold will be tasked with this year, your fatty 2-gap wide-bodied NT (hence why we went after Brandon Williams), adding another scheme-fit player in Mitchell (slashing 3T), etc.

If we select Thomas, many are projecting him to play RDT/3T and then sliding him out to the LEO in nickel/dime.

LDE/5T DeForest Buckner/Chris Jones (6.0/10.5 sacks)
NT/1T Quinton Dial/Mike Purcell/Earl Mitchell (6.5/0.0 sacks)
RDE/3T Solomon Thomas/Arik Armstead/Ronald Blair/Earl Mitchell (3.0/7.0 sacks)
SAM/ELEPHANT/LEO Eli Harold/Ahmad Brooks (11.5/10.5 sacks)

Here's a nice breakdown of this defense and the type of prototypical players who fit.

The 4-3 Under, in it's simplest terms, is a gap control system meant to stop the run and to pressure the passer. For the most part, each lineman and linebacker is responsible for one gap - this makes each player's responsibility fairly cut and dry and eliminates a lot of the reads and thinking from the game. Now, the 4-3 Under can be run with 2-gapping personnel as well, and that was something that we saw Red Bryant and Colin Cole doing when they were healthy in 2010, but it really depends on if you have the horses to 2-gap or 1-gap in this system.

As a refresher, here is how the gap and defensive alignment system works.



You see the offensive line on the bottom of that picture as T, G, C, G, T, E. The space between each offensive lineman is a lettered gap. The A gaps are to each side of the center. The B gaps are to the outside shoulder of the guards. The C gaps are to outside shoulder of the tackles. The D gap is on the outside shoulder of a tight end, if he's there.

Similarly, the 'technique' numbering system designates where each defensive lineman lines himself up in relation to the offensive player. As you can see above, an even number 'technique' (0, 2, 4, 6) denotes that a defensive player is lined up helmet to helmet with the opposing offensive player. An odd number denotes that a defensive player is to line up offset from the offensive player. You may hear a lot about the 1-technique, the 3-technique, and the 5-technique in the Seahawks defense. I'll explain each of those as we go along.

In the late 1980's, Monte Kiffin began coaching for the Minnesota Vikings with a coach named Floyd Peters and they further developed the 4-3 Under that emphasized rushing the passer. The 4-3 Under system uses almost exclusively a staggered alignment to the offense in this basic set.



As you can see, in a basic 4-3 Under, the SAM linebacker is lined up to the outside shoulder of the tight end off the line of scrimmage a yard or two and is responsible for the D gap (to the outside of the tight end). He's also responsible for running in pass coverage from time to time. The strongside defensive end is lined up to the outside shoulder of the tackle, in a 5-technique alignment, and is responsible for the C gap (to the right of the tackle). The strongside defensive tackle is usually lined up shading the center in a 1-technique alignment and is responsible for the strongside A gap. The weakside defensive tackle is lined up in a 3-technique alignment off the weakside guard and is responsible for the weakside B gap in front of him. The weakside defensive end is lined up to the outside shoulder of the weakside offensive tackle and is responsible for the C gap on his side.

This leaves the strongside B gap and the weakside A gap open. These are the responsibilities of the MIKE and WILL linebackers.

The 4-3 Under can be run with any combination of secondary assignments, the Cover-1, Cover-2, Cover-3, and even the Cover-4, and the Seahawks run different zone coverages at different times. The number in each "Cover" represents how many players are responsible in zone for the deep part of the field. In a Cover-1, the deep middle safety is responsible as help for the entire deep field, while all the other players are in man coverage. In a Cover-2, there are two safeties and they split the deep part of the field into two zones and help on routes in their zone. Cover three, one safety and two corners have 1/3 of the field as their respective zones. In Cover-4, also known as Quarters, the field is divided into four zones and each of the 4 defensive backs is responsible for his zone. In a Cover-0, each player is on a man and there is no zone help anywhere on the field.

The other coverage you see the Hawks run is called the Tampa-2, which I'll delve into further a little later.

The defense that Pete Carroll now employs uses the basic tenets of the Monte Kiffin 4-3 Under defense and mixes in a variation originally pioneered by the legendary George Seifert in San Francisco. Seifert wanted to create mismatches against the opposing offensive line so he started using his weakside defensive end to rove around and rush the passer from a two-point stance (standing up position). This was the beginning of the "Elephant" position and one that Carroll uses today. We also see this position called the LEO, and in the Hawks' defense can rush standing up or in a three-point stance.



It's the same basic alignment but as you can see, the SAM linebacker comes up closer to the line to play hard contain and the weakside LEO is pushed out a bit, maybe a yard off of the weakside tackle. The LEO's main job is to control the C gap while rushing the passer like a wild banshee and the SAM plays contain against the TE, runs in pass coverage with him, or rushes the passer in some situations.

Here is the basic description of each position in the Pete Carroll 4-3 Under. In a continuing series, I'll get into more specifics about it, but I'll start you out with a general description. The LEO can be a little bit smaller than a normal DE and Pete Carroll tends to like a more athletic and versatile body type for his Elephant position; a guy that can speed rush the QB but also react quick enough to control his gap. Must also be able to drop back into coverage occasionally in zone blitz situations.

The strongside defensive tackle can be short and squat but must be able to take on a double team consistently. The weakside defensive tackle, the 3-tech, must be your premiere interior pass rusher and have an explosive first step. His main job is to pressure the QB and stop the run in his weakside B gap. The 5-tech defensive end can be a bigger guy and must be great against the run. This is why you saw Red Bryant move out there in 2010.

The SAM linebacker needs to be athletic and rangy; great against the run but able to run with tight ends and running backs in pass coverage. The WILL linebacker is going to get a lot of tackles and in Pete's system is typically a faster, smaller linebacker with range. The MIKE linebacker needs to be the field general; very instinctual and savvy. He needs to be quick enough to drop back down the middle third of the field in pass coverage in the Tampa-2 coverage. The free safety is a guy that's going to move around a lot and be very instinctual as well. He's going to come up to the line a lot and will get a lot of tackles. The strong safety has to be good against the run but like the free safety, will move around a lot and have to defend against the deep pass a lot. He will need to be fast and have some ball skills.

Finally, the cornerbacks need to be physical and long. They will get involved in run defense a lot so they must be good tacklers. They are protected over the top a lot of the time so typically they're not all-world defenders but need to be pretty fast. You see Pete running with solid, physical and tall corners but in his tenure at USC we didn't see any all-world prospects come into the NFL.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31/2191847/the-pete-carroll-4-3-under-defense-part-i-an-introduction

You can guestimate that both Saleh and Lynch are looking for system-fit players like we saw with Kyle on offense. We grabbed a couple already in Smith (WILL) & Mitchell (RDT/3T/Rotation) and with the resigning of Chris Jones (LDE/5T).

Based on this, Buckner is your prototypical LDE/5T; someone who's excellent against the run and can add some additional pass rush. He's made for this spot. Quinton Dial is not your ideal NT/1T but he is the best NT on the team for the moment; we need a Carter/Stubblefield. Given how we went after Brandon Williams, my guess is, we'll look for another wide-bodied NT in this draft as well. Solomon Thomas is your absolute ideal, prototypical RDT/3T. His slashing, instincts, anticipation, get-off, closing speed, and swim move reminds me of Bryant Young. That said, he's no LEO. I'd have him gain 15-20 pounds and focus on the 3T. That takes us to LEO. Lynch is not a LEO either...he is not a smaller, speed rusher, who's bendy and has an array of pass rush moves. That has to be a huge target in this draft. The defense is built around this position. Literally. One position I see intriguing in the SAM. Bruce Irvin made the transition from DE to SAM and with Harold's speed, athleticism and familiarity in stopping the run up at the LOS and with some occasional drop back experience, he might just be the guy. He can also add 'some' pass rush too. Keep your eye on an excellent cover guy in Ray-Ray as well. If he can prove to be an excellent run defender and add some additional pass rush, he could win that job too. This position won't be covering just TE's but speedy RB's so both Harold/Ray-Ray need speed and they have it for this position. Naturally, Bowman and Smith are prototypical MIKE and WILL's. But with Bowman's injuries, it's no surprise we've met with Foster.

What do you do about Armstead, Mitchell, Jones & Blair? Rotation, rotation, rotation. That's the under stated success behind this defense. That, and a heavy rotation of true pass rushers at both DE and SAM spots (3 or 4 at least).

LDE/5T: DeForest Bucker
NT/1T: Quinton Dial
RDT/3T: Solomon Thomas
RDE/LEO: Aaron Lynch
SAM: Eli Harold/Ray-Ray Armstrong
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Malcolm Smith

Lynch sucks.
Dial is a backup.
Ehere is Brooks?
Who plays SS?

1. SS- Jamal Adams
2. LEO- Charles Harris
3. SAM- Ryan Anderson
4. NT- Dalvin Tomlinson



SAM: Ahmad Brooks / Ryan Anderson
LDE/5T: DeForest Bucker
NT/1T: Dalvin Tomlinson / Quinton Dial
RDT/3T: Earl Mitchell / Arik Armstead
RDE/LEO: Eli Harold / Charles Harris

WILL: Malcolm Smith/Ray-Ray Armstrong
MIKE: Navarro Bowman

SS- Jamal Adams
FS- Jimmy Ward / Eric Reid

My D is 10x better than your D
Originally posted by jonnydel:
He was a DE in name only because he played the 5 tech in a 3-4.....You do realize he made the pro-bowl as both a DT and DE because of that, right?? When we were in "nickel" 70% of the time Cowboy was inside as a DT.

I ask, why can't he be the "LEO"?? That's where Michael Bennett plays, most of the time, and he's nearly the exact same height, weight, arm length and is darn near unblockable, at times, in pass rush. If Bennet hadn't been there in the SB against NE it would've been a blowout. The only problem NE had in that game was Bennett.

Thomas is a guy who has not only shown top tier athleticism, but also a relentless motor.

Michael Bennett is not the LEO. He is the LDE. Cliff Avril is the LEO.
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