Rams deal is the best thing to happen for the niners!

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Big Ben, Flacco, Matt Ryan, none of those guys were considered locks. With Luck you had the highest ranked prospect since Manning. That doesn't make Goff or Wentz mid or late 1st round prospects by any means. Big Ben wasn't considered a first rounder until his final season, as people sat down and watched his tape they said "wow, this guy is pretty special." As I said before, the tape does not lie and what it shows for Goff and Wentz are guys that are top 1st round QB's and have first round potential. They both check a majority of the boxes of what teams are looking for in a franchise QB.

I saw him (Ben) play live at Aloha stadium-and was VERY impressed. I have not seen either of the two play live in person and only Goff on TV, and thought he was pretty good. but not impressed as I was with Ben.

Originally posted by okdkid:
Lost out on what? They're drafting #7. Neither Wentz or Goff was making it that far. Niners only hope was a trade up.

And it's hard to say the Niners don't have any "serious intent" on keeping Kap when they must pay his 2016 salary -- or the remainder should he sign a lesser deal elsewhere. The "serious intent" diatribe went out the window once his contract became guaranteed. There is literally nothing else the Niners can do show they're serious about keeping him. They ate the contract. And they have turned down deals that they felt weren't adequate compensation.

I think Kap will get traded. But people need to categorize "winners and losers" before this whole QB thing even fully plays out. Makes no sense.

Its not hard to say at all. They had no choice in paying him, he was injured, that is just how things worked out. So not cutting him was meaningless. To trade him they will likely have to pay a portion of it as well but whether sooner or later I don't know that there is anyone other than the outright homers who believe that the 49ers will hold on to him.

Meanwhile there is the possibility that Lynch drops with the Rams not taking him at 15, which makes it easier for a team like Denver to move up, thus they can continue to play hardball with the 49ers as long as they think they've got a shot at him.


As far as the 49ers losing out, they absolutely did and if you look around, nobody disputes that, not national sports media people nor local Bay Area sports media, including 49ers beat writers.

Nothing about this trade puts them in a better position than they were in the day before. You have a division rival that has needed a QB for a long time potentially getting a franchise QB. You miss out on the possibility of moving up for a QB yourself and now Denver has less reason to give in on their conditions for a Kaepernick trade.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Big Ben, Flacco, Matt Ryan, none of those guys were considered locks. With Luck you had the highest ranked prospect since Manning. That doesn't make Goff or Wentz mid or late 1st round prospects by any means. Big Ben wasn't considered a first rounder until his final season, as people sat down and watched his tape they said "wow, this guy is pretty special." As I said before, the tape does not lie and what it shows for Goff and Wentz are guys that are top 1st round QB's and have first round potential. They both check a majority of the boxes of what teams are looking for in a franchise QB.

That's great news for the 2017 QB class. 2-3 guys always pop in their last year.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
They were not considered locks at the top of the first round as Luck was--they were considered mid to late first rounders, as I have stated previously.

Big Ben, Flacco, Matt Ryan, none of those guys were considered locks. With Luck you had the highest ranked prospect since Manning. That doesn't make Goff or Wentz mid or late 1st round prospects by any means. Big Ben wasn't considered a first rounder until his final season, as people sat down and watched his tape they said "wow, this guy is pretty special." As I said before, the tape does not lie and what it shows for Goff and Wentz are guys that are top 1st round QB's and have first round potential. They both check a majority of the boxes of what teams are looking for in a franchise QB.

By the same token, I can say Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell were considered locks. Reading the NFL.com's weaknesses regarding Goff does not sound like a high first rounder...more like a developmental QB...which would be mid to late first round at best. The only reason they are at the top of the first round is their position...QB. It's such a necessary position that you can't blame teams for reaching.

I don't think I disagree with you too much here, because if Goff had been available at #7 I would have expected Baalke to take him. Not as sure about Wentz. Why? For the same reasons you are stating...finding a franchise QB is worth some risk...a lot of risk. But would I have traded what the Rams did for either QB? No. If they can find an elite defender to bring the defense back into the top five (Buckner, Bosa, Jack) it would be difficult for me to ignore that. So I see this as making a difficult decision much easier for the niners and eliminating angst in the Warroom.

Now I have to think about the proposition WildBill just threw out--niners trading #7 for Wilkerson and the Jets #1......getting a head ache and we aren't even that close to draft day! That trade could replace J Smith and A Smith in one move--they could take either Lawson or Spence...or Ogbah! Ouch. Then OL in the second and as NC's mock suggests...two QBs in subsequent rounds.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
By the same token, I can say Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell were considered locks. Reading the NFL.com's weaknesses regarding Goff does not sound like a high first rounder...more like a developmental QB...which would be mid to late first round at best. The only reason they are at the top of the first round is their position...QB. It's such a necessary position that you can't blame teams for reaching.

And see, I just can't agree with this. You're taking a single random draft profile to extrapolate a player's value and that doesn't make sense to me. Goff's most frequent player comparison is Matt Ryan, who was a Top 10 pick.

Executive 1: Matt Ryan
"He's a pure, tall pocket passer. I liked (Sam) Bradford a little better coming out (of college), but he reminds me a lot of Matt Ryan."

Executive 2: Matt Ryan
"He has a tall, skinny frame and plays with a gunslinger mentality. He's not as reckless as Jay Cutler, but I do see a lot of similarities to Matt Ryan at Boston College."

Executive 3: Matt Ryan
"Everything that I find out about him background-wise reminds me of Matt Ryan. They're both very accurate passers with good size."

Executive 4: Matt Ryan
"He reminds me of Matt Ryan, but has much better arm strength. Watch his touchdown throw against Washington. It was a big-time throw."

Executive 5: Matt Ryan
"This might seem like it's out of left field because they come from totally different offenses, but (Goff) reminds me of Matt Ryan. Ryan was coming out of pro system at Boston College and Goff is in a pure spread system. Because of that, the transition will be a little tougher for Goff. Talent-wise, they're very similar."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000551888/article/ask-5-whats-best-nfl-player-comp-for-cal-qb-jared-goff

Even that same NFL.com draft profile compares him to Matt Ryan.



Wentz has been compared to Luck and Blake Bortles, both Top 5 picks so I don't know where this "mid-to-late round" stuff is coming from.


Anytime you're looking at a QB teams will generally reach, they have to, it is the most valuable position on the field but going back 10 years in the draft, I don't see anything that supports that these guys wouldn't be Top 10 QB's in most drafts. If they really were not worthy as prospects then they wouldn't go early, just as EJ Manuel and many other lesser prospects didn't go in the Top 5.


A few years ago people were making these same claims about Blake Bortles who was a rather unheralded prospect, that he wasn't deserving of being a high pick...etc...etc. In his 2nd year in the NFL all the guy did was throw for 4,400 yards and 35 TD's. He's still a work in progress but has checked off the QB need filled box for Jacksonville.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
And see, I just can't agree with this. You're taking a single random draft profile to extrapolate a player's value and that doesn't make sense to me. Goff's most frequent player comparison is Matt Ryan, who was a Top 10 pick.

Executive 1: Matt Ryan
"He's a pure, tall pocket passer. I liked (Sam) Bradford a little better coming out (of college), but he reminds me a lot of Matt Ryan."

Executive 2: Matt Ryan
"He has a tall, skinny frame and plays with a gunslinger mentality. He's not as reckless as Jay Cutler, but I do see a lot of similarities to Matt Ryan at Boston College."

Executive 3: Matt Ryan
"Everything that I find out about him background-wise reminds me of Matt Ryan. They're both very accurate passers with good size."

Executive 4: Matt Ryan
"He reminds me of Matt Ryan, but has much better arm strength. Watch his touchdown throw against Washington. It was a big-time throw."

Executive 5: Matt Ryan
"This might seem like it's out of left field because they come from totally different offenses, but (Goff) reminds me of Matt Ryan. Ryan was coming out of pro system at Boston College and Goff is in a pure spread system. Because of that, the transition will be a little tougher for Goff. Talent-wise, they're very similar."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000551888/article/ask-5-whats-best-nfl-player-comp-for-cal-qb-jared-goff

Even that same NFL.com draft profile compares him to Matt Ryan.



Wentz has been compared to Luck and Blake Bortles, both Top 5 picks so I don't know where this "mid-to-late round" stuff is coming from.


Anytime you're looking at a QB teams will generally reach, they have to, it is the most valuable position on the field but going back 10 years in the draft, I don't see anything that supports that these guys wouldn't be Top 10 QB's in most drafts. If they really were not worthy as prospects then they wouldn't go early, just as EJ Manuel and many other lesser prospects didn't go in the Top 5.


A few years ago people were making these same claims about Blake Bortles who was a rather unheralded prospect, that he wasn't deserving of being a high pick...etc...etc. In his 2nd year in the NFL all the guy did was throw for 4,400 yards and 35 TD's. He's still a work in progress but has checked off the QB need filled box for Jacksonville.

Here's an article talking about how most NFL GMs prefered Leaf over Manning. http://thebiglead.com/2012/03/30/remember-14-years-ago-when-a-majority-of-gms-said-they-would-take-ryan-leaf-over-peyton-manning/

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Here's an article talking about how most NFL GMs prefered Leaf over Manning. http://thebiglead.com/2012/03/30/remember-14-years-ago-when-a-majority-of-gms-said-they-would-take-ryan-leaf-over-peyton-manning/

The way Leaf was handled early on with the Chargers is a big reason why Eli refused to go there a few years later. Leaf was a knucklehead but talent wise he wasn't a bad prospect at all. In the end Manning went to the Colts to work with Bruce Arians and Tom Moore,Leaf went to the Chargers to work with Geep Chryst.



I think the issue is one of talent. Nobody is guaranteed success, even Luck, a stellar prospect has had a lot of up and downs. All bets are off once a guy is drafted. My point has simply been that Goff and Wentz are both top quality prospects, very comparable to many other QB's taken in the Top 10 in the past decade.

There is nothing about them that I see that says "this guy shouldn't be picked early in the draft."

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
The way Leaf was handled early on with the Chargers is a big reason why Eli refused to go there a few years later.

But I think the issue is one of talent. Nobody is guaranteed success, even Luck, a stellar prospect has had a lot of up and downs. All bets are off once a guy is drafted. My point has simply been that Goff and Wentz are both top quality prospects, very comparable to many other QB's taken in the Top 10 in the past decade.

There is nothing about them that I see that says "this guy shouldn't be picked early in the draft."

Well then, the niners already have one of those top ten QBs on their squad--Gabbert. So they can see what Kelly can do with Gabbert, maybe CK and some young guys; then draft some dominant defenders and some OL who fit Kelly's offense. Win/win...certainly not the 9ers losing due to this trade.

Edit: Sort of kidding but am serious about seeing what Kelly can do with Gabbert. He has had some very questionable situations thus far.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
The whole premise of this thread was the Niners were in a BETTER position because the Rams made this blockbuster trade. Before the trade, the Niners were predicted by many to pick either Goff or Wentz without having to trade up. The Niners could still move up to #2 if Cleveland is dumb enough to ignore their biggest need, too. Bottom line, the Niners chances of grabbing one of the two best prospects at a position of need are now almost zero, and that isn't a good thing. If you honestly think the Niners think they may "have something" with one average QB, one disgruntled QB who wants out, Thad Lewis and Dylan Thompson.............you have to rethink your standards.

The problem with the "but the mock drafts said so" logic is that 99% of the mock drafts out there are static. That is, they don't include trades.

There was zero chance either Wentz or Goff made it to #7. If a team takes them in the top 7 then they think they are a franchise QB. And if they believe that, they will trade anything to get one.

The only chance the Niners, realistically, had of landing Goff/Wentz was with a trade up.

Zero chance that either Wentz or Goff made it to #7? Who are you, Nostradamus? Since you can't predict trades, you have to go with the information at hand.

There was only one team in the top 7 who absolutely had to have a QB and that was the Browns until this trade. The Cowboys did not NEED a QB because of Romo, but they could USE one for the future. Other than that, there was the Titans (Mariota), Chargers (Rivers), Jaguars (Bortles), and the Ravens (Flacco). With two top QB prospects, it was entirely possible that one of them would fall to the Niners. Now, this is all moot.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

The way Leaf was handled early on with the Chargers is a big reason why Eli refused to go there a few years later.

But I think the issue is one of talent. Nobody is guaranteed success, even Luck, a stellar prospect has had a lot of up and downs. All bets are off once a guy is drafted. My point has simply been that Goff and Wentz are both top quality prospects, very comparable to many other QB's taken in the Top 10 in the past decade.

There is nothing about them that I see that says "this guy shouldn't be picked early in the draft."

Well then, the niners already have one of those top ten QBs on their squad--Gabbert. So they can see what Kelly can do with Gabbert, maybe CK and some young guys; then draft some dominant defenders and some OL who fit Kelly's offense. Win/win...certainly not the 9ers losing due to this trade.

Edit: Sort of kidding but am serious about seeing what Kelly can do with Gabbert. He has had some very questionable situations thus far.

Yea I really don't even see how the niners lost out on the Rams trade. It's laughable. The Rams mortgaged their future and even if the qb they take is good they also need a good ol and wrs or te which they don't have. The worst offense in the NFL. So again, the niners did not lose out. We still have gabbert a better prospect than goff and Wentz and we shall see who does better from this year on bc chip Kelly has had a great record working with average to below average qbs. See Bradford Sanchez and foles having career years. Gabbert is better than all of those qbs.

So we miss out on a possible......I repeat POSSIBLE ......franchise qb. Well, we don't miss out on a possible (less bust potential) great defender. So the niners gained in this trade not lost.

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
The way Leaf was handled early on with the Chargers is a big reason why Eli refused to go there a few years later.

But I think the issue is one of talent. Nobody is guaranteed success, even Luck, a stellar prospect has had a lot of up and downs. All bets are off once a guy is drafted. My point has simply been that Goff and Wentz are both top quality prospects, very comparable to many other QB's taken in the Top 10 in the past decade.

There is nothing about them that I see that says "this guy shouldn't be picked early in the draft."

Well then, the niners already have one of those top ten QBs on their squad--Gabbert. So they can see what Kelly can do with Gabbert, maybe CK and some young guys; then draft some dominant defenders and some OL who fit Kelly's offense. Win/win...certainly not the 9ers losing due to this trade.

Edit: Sort of kidding but am serious about seeing what Kelly can do with Gabbert. He has had some very questionable situations thus far.

Yea I really don't even see how the niners lost out on the Rams trade. It's laughable. The Rams mortgaged their future and even if the qb they take is good they also need a good ol and wrs or te which they don't have. The worst offense in the NFL. So again, the niners did not lose out. We still have gabbert a better prospect than goff and Wentz and we shall see who does better from this year on bc chip Kelly has had a great record working with average to below average qbs. See Bradford Sanchez and foles having career years. Gabbert is better than all of those qbs.

So we miss out on a possible......I repeat POSSIBLE ......franchise qb. Well, we don't miss out on a possible (less bust potential) great defender. So the niners gained in this trade not lost.

Yep. It's hard to "lose out" on something you never wanted that bad to begin with. But fans gonna be fans.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
The way Leaf was handled early on with the Chargers is a big reason why Eli refused to go there a few years later.

But I think the issue is one of talent. Nobody is guaranteed success, even Luck, a stellar prospect has had a lot of up and downs. All bets are off once a guy is drafted. My point has simply been that Goff and Wentz are both top quality prospects, very comparable to many other QB's taken in the Top 10 in the past decade.

There is nothing about them that I see that says "this guy shouldn't be picked early in the draft."

Well then, the niners already have one of those top ten QBs on their squad--Gabbert. So they can see what Kelly can do with Gabbert, maybe CK and some young guys; then draft some dominant defenders and some OL who fit Kelly's offense. Win/win...certainly not the 9ers losing due to this trade.

Edit: Sort of kidding but am serious about seeing what Kelly can do with Gabbert. He has had some very questionable situations thus far.

Yea I really don't even see how the niners lost out on the Rams trade. It's laughable. The Rams mortgaged their future and even if the qb they take is good they also need a good ol and wrs or te which they don't have. The worst offense in the NFL. So again, the niners did not lose out. We still have gabbert a better prospect than goff and Wentz and we shall see who does better from this year on bc chip Kelly has had a great record working with average to below average qbs. See Bradford Sanchez and foles having career years. Gabbert is better than all of those qbs.

So we miss out on a possible......I repeat POSSIBLE ......franchise qb. Well, we don't miss out on a possible (less bust potential) great defender. So the niners gained in this trade not lost.

Yep. It's hard to "lose out" on something you never wanted that bad to begin with. But fans gonna be fans.

Phoenix is a very logical poster so I'm not discounting his point of view altogether...we just disagree right now and have to wait and see how this pans out (always makes me nervous to be at odds with Phoenix). Paso could be right that they take Stanley at #7 and surprise the heck out of me. If only I owned the team! LOL!

Edit: Stanley and Staley would be a fun set of OTs!

Tom Brady is the only qb worth nine picks and that is a maybe.



NO OTHER QB could be considered worth 9 PICKS.

we can get a qb in the later rounds for Chip Kelly"s system.

Originally posted by TonyStarks:
Tom Brady is the only qb worth nine picks and that is a maybe.



NO OTHER QB could be considered worth 9 PICKS.

I am confused. Nobody has traded 9 picks for a single pick/player recently.