Rams deal is the best thing to happen for the niners!

Am I the only one who wants Ogbah over Shaq Lawson if we trade back?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
And you have many analysts who think that they are as good as any QB that has come out recently. Greg Cosell has compared Wentz to Luck and Goff to Mariota in terms of their talent levels.

I don't buy the whole "these guys are only there because there is nobody else" rhetoric. They are perfectly good prospects in their own right. People get down on them because neither of them rode the same train of hype that other QBs have had in recent years. That doesn't make them undeserving of their draft slotting.

I do buy it because there is often a settling back from all the combine hype to where people were rated a year ago. Luck and RGIII performed brilliantly in college and were blue chip all through the careers. Wentz is a great unknown and Goff played on a team that was limited. His five interceptions in a game don't bother me too much but it does fit the negative generalities saying he's over rated.

But the guy (wish I could remember his name) who said there are no "good" draft experts is correct. When you look at mock drafts by supposed experts and realize they are less than 10% accurate...gives a whole new meaning to crap shoot. So, could Goff be the next Brady? Sure. Could he be the next Leaf...not likely but who knows? When drafting at the top of the first round I don't think you want that kind of guessing unless you just need one piece to complete your playoff team.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
I do buy it because there is often a settling back from all the combine hype to where people were rated a year ago. Luck and RGIII performed brilliantly in college and were blue chip all through the careers. Wentz is a great unknown and Goff played on a team that was limited. His five interceptions in a game don't bother me too much but it does fit the negative generalities saying he's over rated.

But the guy (wish I could remember his name) who said there are no "good" draft experts is correct. When you look at mock drafts by supposed experts and realize they are less than 10% accurate...gives a whole new meaning to crap shoot. So, could Goff be the next Brady? Sure. Could he be the next Leaf...not likely but who knows? When drafting at the top of the first round I don't think you want that kind of guessing unless you just need one piece to complete your playoff team.

And I disagree. Wentz was looked at some as a 1st rounder before last season even started. He didn't just come from out of nowhere, people largely just weren't paying attention because he was playing at NDSU. Anyone that sat down and watched tape of him such as Greg Gabriel did came to the same conclusion, that he'd be a top 1st round pick.

"First time I saw Carson was his junior year and my first thought was why the heck is he here? Why isn't he at Ohio State or Alabama? But credit the Bison coaches for seeing something and developing him. I like the arm talent, the size obviously stands out and he's shown the ability to think on his feet and make the spontaneous decision. You see a lot of traits that says he can start in our league" – AFC North scout

While the mainstream media and the draft media are all over Cal's Jared Goff and Michigan State's Connor Cook, the NFL team scouts are quietly very impressed with North Dakota State quarterback Carson Wentz. While the level of competition is a concern, Wentz has all the tools to become a quality starter in the National Football League.

He has more talent than Jimmy Garoppolo from the 2014 draft and should get drafted higher. From what I have seen to date, I would have no problem pulling the trigger on this player in the first round.

Goff was always in the 1st round conversation, the main difference between him and most top QB prospects is that he played on an awful team. He didn't have a stacked roster of highly drafted players all around him, he didn't have the luxury of game managing his team to wins ala Connor Cook or Kevin Hogan, basically he had to carry the offense for them to have a shot.


There's nothing to support the idea that these guys aren't good QB prospects or lesser QB prospects somehow, as they say, the tape doesn't lie. These guys didn't rise because of a super Combine performance or whatever, they were underrated to start with just as guys like Cook and Hackenberg were way overrated. The scouting community knew all about them, it was the media that was late to the party.

And because they didn't have all that hype, I think some act that somehow they are just lesser QB's riding hype however that only gets you so far. Paxton Lynch has fallen off quite a bit and a few years ago EJ Manuel was the first QB picked, in the teens. If he was the top QB in the draft based on draft position, why wouldn't he have been a Top 5 pick just like the guys this year if the thesis about hugely reaching for QB talent is correct?


Maybe one or both of them don't work out, but that is the risk you take with any player in the draft. But talent wise they are both deserving of being Top 10 selections.

"The statement I'm going to make to you guys, and you can tell me whether you agree or not, is I'm at the point now with both Wentz and Goff where I think they're every bit as good, if not better, than Winston and Mariota from a year ago as prospects," Mayock said.

"My initial study of Goff tells me that I think (Goff is) a more natural and better overall thrower than (Titans QB Marcus) Mariota. I think he's a better prospect than Jameis Winston," Cosell told WGFX-FM in Nashville, Tennessee. "Where he goes? I can't answer that, but from studying it preliminarily, that's how I see it with Jared Goff."

Andrew Luck was considered a rare prospect, and as such, people are hesitant to compare other high-level prospects to Luck.

I believe Carson Wentz is a high-level prospect, my top quarterback in this draft class, and I think the comparison to Luck is valid.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/greg-cosell-s-draft-preview--carson-wentz-s-valid-andrew-luck-comp-152623472.html

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
It also puts the 49ers in a worse position in bargaining with Denver. Lynch was expected to be gone at 15 to the Rams, that obviously won't happen, he could fall for awhile which might make it far easier for the Broncos to move up for him, at which point the Kaepernick trade is really dead and the 49ers are stuck with a QB that doesn't want to be there and that they don't want.

It has no effect on the Kap trade. There is no leverage to be gained.

Baalke has a piece that he is comfortable hanging onto. For that fact alone Denver cannot get any more "leverage". Not to mention, nobody in this draft (including Goff or Wentz) will help the Broncos repeat as champs. They need a veteran who can win in the post season.

People toss around the "who has leverage" conversation like it's constantly in flux. It's not. "Leverage" depends on the stance of the participating parties. If the Niners are holding onto Kap if their compensation demands aren't met -- then there is no leverage to be gained. It's just fan-speak.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
And you have many analysts who think that they are as good as any QB that has come out recently. Greg Cosell has compared Wentz to Luck and Goff to Mariota in terms of their talent levels.

I don't buy the whole "these guys are only there because there is nobody else" rhetoric. They are perfectly good prospects in their own right. People get down on them because neither of them rode the same train of hype that other QBs have had in recent years. That doesn't make them undeserving of their draft slotting.

I do buy it because there is often a settling back from all the combine hype to where people were rated a year ago. Luck and RGIII performed brilliantly in college and were blue chip all through the careers. Wentz is a great unknown and Goff played on a team that was limited. His five interceptions in a game don't bother me too much but it does fit the negative generalities saying he's over rated.

But the guy (wish I could remember his name) who said there are no "good" draft experts is correct. When you look at mock drafts by supposed experts and realize they are less than 10% accurate...gives a whole new meaning to crap shoot. So, could Goff be the next Brady? Sure. Could he be the next Leaf...not likely but who knows? When drafting at the top of the first round I don't think you want that kind of guessing unless you just need one piece to complete your playoff team.

I was listening to ESPN sports radio in Hawaii, over the last 2 days. They said that people in the NFL -scouts and GMs currently working (not the meida pundits) that the Rams paid to much. They understood why the Rams did it, but still.... They also said that most of the Rams fans (not if they meant LA or ST Louis) thought it was a bad idea.

They went on to say that compared to last year, this years talent doesn't measure up the same. They also said that to trade for a player with all those picks, the QB should on the level of Luck, I agree.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
And I disagree. Wentz was looked at some as a 1st rounder before last season even started. He didn't just come from out of nowhere, people largely just weren't paying attention because he was playing at NDSU. Anyone that sat down and watched tape of him such as Greg Gabriel did came to the same conclusion, that he'd be a top 1st round pick.

"First time I saw Carson was his junior year and my first thought was why the heck is he here? Why isn't he at Ohio State or Alabama? But credit the Bison coaches for seeing something and developing him. I like the arm talent, the size obviously stands out and he's shown the ability to think on his feet and make the spontaneous decision. You see a lot of traits that says he can start in our league" – AFC North scout

Goff was always in the 1st round conversation, the main difference between him and most top QB prospects is that he played on an awful team. He didn't have a stacked roster of highly drafted players all around him, he didn't have the luxury of game managing his team to wins ala Connor Cook or Kevin Hogan, basically he had to carry the offense for them to have a shot.

They were not considered locks at the top of the first round as Luck was--they were considered mid to late first rounders, as I have stated previously. I did not say they were from no where. Wentz is from a team with a lower conference rating, hence unknown against better opposition and Goff was not blazing a trail through the Pac12 as was Luck.

Here are the "Weaknesses" for each QB from their NFL.com draft profiles...I think you will note some differences:

Goff:

"Hits a rough patch with accuracy from time to time. Sails throws over intended targets especially early in games. Has spots where he makes receivers work too hard on easy throws. Spent 99.8 percent of his pass snaps from pistol or shotgun this season. Will likely need to orient himself with NFL footwork from under center. Rhythm passer who benefited from the up­tempo and "quick game" of Cal's Bear Raid offense. Has to learn fine line between getting ball out and rushing throws. Able to escape pocket, but isn't a proven finisher when on the move. Fumbled the ball 24 times over the last three years losing 11. Sacked 81 times over three years. Internal clock and poise will need to be monitored closely. Several of his interceptions came when he failed to read zone defenders underneath drifting up to challenge the throw."

Luck:

"There are no glaring weaknesses in Luck's play, and while some could argue he isn't the athlete that RG3 is, that is simply not his game. He displays the athleticism necessary to excel as a pocket passer. There are times when Luck second-guessed passes and simply didn't see a breaking corner coming from another zone, such as the play that almost got Stanford beat toward the end of a high-energy USC game, but for the most part Luck works to identify and improve on his weaknesses."

Goff was interesting to me because he played in an uptempo offense and it seemed likely to translate well to Kelly's system.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Many analysts believe Goff and Wentz are mid-first round picks talent wise, at best, but because it's a weak QB year they jump up to the top of the round. If this is true then why over-value these guys? Yes, it's the most important position to fil, but Gabbert is proof that it doens't always work out...and history tells us it's less likely to work out than not...over reaching. When you have three or four defensive players much more NFL ready and blue chip certain my choice would be pretty straight forward...go for the BPA.

If you're a GM who does not think Goff/Wentz are "franchise" QBs -- you are loving this. Especially if you're in the top 10.

Let teams mortgage their future drafts on guys you think are lesser talents, and prosper as true blue chip players fall to you.

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
The whole premise of this thread was the Niners were in a BETTER position because the Rams made this blockbuster trade. Before the trade, the Niners were predicted by many to pick either Goff or Wentz without having to trade up. The Niners could still move up to #2 if Cleveland is dumb enough to ignore their biggest need, too. Bottom line, the Niners chances of grabbing one of the two best prospects at a position of need are now almost zero, and that isn't a good thing. If you honestly think the Niners think they may "have something" with one average QB, one disgruntled QB who wants out, Thad Lewis and Dylan Thompson.............you have to rethink your standards.

The problem with the "but the mock drafts said so" logic is that 99% of the mock drafts out there are static. That is, they don't include trades.

There was zero chance either Wentz or Goff made it to #7. If a team takes them in the top 7 then they think they are a franchise QB. And if they believe that, they will trade anything to get one.

The only chance the Niners, realistically, had of landing Goff/Wentz was with a trade up.

Originally posted by okdkid:
If you're a GM who does not think Goff/Wentz are "franchise" QBs -- you are loving this. Especially if you're in the top 10.

Let teams mortgage their future drafts on guys you think are lesser talents, and prosper as true blue chip players fall to you.

Exactly! We won't know what Baalke thinks of them, he won't come out and say, "Dang, missed on those guys!" But it's safe to say he could have mortgaged the furture for one of them...but didn't...for a reason.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by okdkid:
If you're a GM who does not think Goff/Wentz are "franchise" QBs -- you are loving this. Especially if you're in the top 10.

Let teams mortgage their future drafts on guys you think are lesser talents, and prosper as true blue chip players fall to you.

Exactly! We won't know what Baalke thinks of them, he won't come out and say, "Dang, missed on those guys!" But it's safe to say he could have mortgaged the furture for one of them...but didn't...for a reason.

No doubt. If Baalke/Kelly thought EITHER Goff or Wentz was a can't miss "franchise" QB -- we would have moved up to #1 or #2 long ago.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
It also puts the 49ers in a worse position in bargaining with Denver. Lynch was expected to be gone at 15 to the Rams, that obviously won't happen, he could fall for awhile which might make it far easier for the Broncos to move up for him, at which point the Kaepernick trade is really dead and the 49ers are stuck with a QB that doesn't want to be there and that they don't want.

It has no effect on the Kap trade. There is no leverage to be gained.

Baalke is has a piece that he is comfortable hanging onto. For that fact alone Denver cannot get any more "leverage". Not to mention, nobody in this draft (including Goff or Wentz) will help the Broncos repeat as champs. They need a veteran who can win in the post season.

People toss around the "who has leverage" conversation like it's constantly in flux. It's not. "Leverage" depends on the stance of the participating parties. If the Niners are holding onto Kap if their compensation demands aren't met -- then there is no leverage to be gained. It's just fan-speak.

There is one possibility that has been mentioned by a lot of zoners. The jets need to resign Fritz, but have limited cap. MW is said that he would love to play for the niners. The niners could trade their #7 to the jets for MW and their #1. The niners then pick Lynch with a later pick (if he is someone the niners want). The niners win, they get a QB and DL, then the 2nd round pick can be used for either an OL or they could move up if Dodd is available. I would go OL then go after either
Carl Nassib or Ngakoue, Yannick in the third or move up to get them. Then move some of those late picks to get back into the third for an ILB is any good ones are left/available.

Also, if the Rams take Wentz (yes-I heard the Rams are leaning towards Goff-but until it happens...) and the browns are not sold on Goff, they may still throw a kilter on things by taking tonsil and making a go with RG III. Then jump ahead of Denver to get either Lynch of Cook.

Side note: Yes, we are prospering with Goff/Wentz going #1 & 2. But imagine if the Cowboys actually go with Elliott. Assuming Tunsil goes in the top 6...

To think that at least TWO of Ramsey/Jack/Bosa//Buckner could still be on the board is incredible. And it makes a possible trade back more likely.

Originally posted by okdkid:
It has no effect on the Kap trade. There is no leverage to be gained.

I disagree and I'm not the only one. Its one of the main reasons why the 49ers are being called the big loser of the Rams trade. They have a QB that nobody believes that they have any serious intent on keeping and their only likely trade partner now has a shot at a much shinier piece that they can get for a lower salary on a long-term contract.

Anyway you spin it, the 49ers lost out.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
They were not considered locks at the top of the first round as Luck was--they were considered mid to late first rounders, as I have stated previously.

Big Ben, Flacco, Matt Ryan, none of those guys were considered locks. With Luck you had the highest ranked prospect since Manning. That doesn't make Goff or Wentz mid or late 1st round prospects by any means. Big Ben wasn't considered a first rounder until his final season, as people sat down and watched his tape they said "wow, this guy is pretty special." As I said before, the tape does not lie and what it shows for Goff and Wentz are guys that are top 1st round QB's and have first round potential. They both check a majority of the boxes of what teams are looking for in a franchise QB.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by okdkid:
It has no effect on the Kap trade. There is no leverage to be gained.

I disagree and I'm not the only one. Its one of the main reasons why the 49ers are being called the big loser of the Rams trade. They have a QB that nobody believes that they have any serious intent on keeping and their only likely trade partner now has a shot at a much shinier piece that they can get for a lower salary on a long-term contract.

Anyway you spin it, the 49ers lost out.

Lost out on what? They're drafting #7. Neither Wentz or Goff was making it that far. Niners only hope was a trade up.

And it's hard to say the Niners don't have any "serious intent" on keeping Kap when they must pay his 2016 salary -- or the remainder should he sign a lesser deal elsewhere. The "serious intent" diatribe went out the window once his contract became guaranteed. There is literally nothing else the Niners can do show they're serious about keeping him. They ate the contract. And they have turned down deals that they felt weren't adequate compensation.

I think Kap will get traded. But people need to categorize "winners and losers" before this whole QB thing even fully plays out. Makes no sense.