2008-09 San Antonio Spurs Thread

So, Drew Gooden to the Spurs.

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by Joecool:
So, Drew Gooden to the Spurs.

Maybe.

Wait . . . has something happened?

The Kings waived him and the Spurs are going to pick him up.

Originally posted by dobophile:
Almost official . . .

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news;_ylt=AqwhX2LnI_9PcYIreRzdOws5nYcB?slug=aw-goodenspurs030309&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Still almost official. I'm watching the game and they keep saying it's pretty much a done deal, but I won't celebrate it until he actually signs.

Also...gotta stop missing these open shots! Gah!

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by dobophile:
Almost official . . .

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news;_ylt=AqwhX2LnI_9PcYIreRzdOws5nYcB?slug=aw-goodenspurs030309&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Still almost official. I'm watching the game and they keep saying it's pretty much a done deal, but I won't celebrate it until he actually signs.

Also...gotta stop missing these open shots! Gah!

Spurs always have those can't hit open shots moments. They seem to have this more than any team I know. Last years playoffs were the worst where they would be guaranteed to have a 10 or 12 point quarter in every game. This killed them last year.

I think it has a lot to do with Pop's style. He is too controlling and the players lose confidence in the desire to take an open shot as soon as they are open. I usually see them try to look for one more pass even if it's obvious that their man is dropping back. Just let it go!!!

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by dobophile:
Almost official . . .

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news;_ylt=AqwhX2LnI_9PcYIreRzdOws5nYcB?slug=aw-goodenspurs030309&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Still almost official. I'm watching the game and they keep saying it's pretty much a done deal, but I won't celebrate it until he actually signs.

Also...gotta stop missing these open shots! Gah!

Spurs always have those can't hit open shots moments. They seem to have this more than any team I know. Last years playoffs were the worst where they would be guaranteed to have a 10 or 12 point quarter in every game. This killed them last year.

I think it has a lot to do with Pop's style. He is too controlling and the players lose confidence in the desire to take an open shot as soon as they are open. I usually see them try to look for one more pass even if it's obvious that their man is dropping back. Just let it go!!!

I disagree.

The offensive struggles during last year's playoffs were attributable to Manu being so gimpy. When Manu is slashing and attacking and doing Gumby contortions in the lane, opposing defenses get confused and start acting erratically. With a healthy Manu and Tony, the Spurs have two solid penetrating threats, as well as a strong inside presence in Duncan. When all three are healthy, the Spurs offense works beautifully, with a lot of motion and with role players hitting outside shots.

The 2008 playoffs showed how the Spurs offense is very ineffective when Manu's slowed by injury. Sure, he scored a bunch of points off of his outside shooting, but that's not his job. The Spurs have had players like Horry, Finley, Bonner, Mason, Barry, and Bowen for a reason. They get the open shot when opposing defenses collapse. When you have Manu only taking outside shots, that's a bad thing.

This is what I saw in the playoffs last year. The Spurs were unable to throw opposing defenses into disarray. The defenses were not collapsing in the lane. So, on offense, the Spurs relied on: (1) Duncan overcoming double and triple teams, and (2) someone else stepping up and hitting outside shots. That's it. It worked against Phoenix, and it barely worked against New Orleans. But you can't beat the Lakers like that.

I saw the exact opposite. I saw teams completely falling back and daring Parker and the other role players beside Manu take the 3-pointer. They fell back on Duncan making it difficult for him to get the ball. Once a Spur misses a wide open gimmie, it always seems as though they are super hesitant to take it again. This is exactly what the Lakers did to them. Jackson has ALWAYS done this with every team he has coached. If the opposition is hitting their shots, then Jackson's only hope is to hope the best scorer in the NBA (which he has had during his entire coaching tenure) can play lights out when it's needed. However, when he sees a few players for the opposition missing shots, he assigns a "roamer" who falls back for the quick help or steals and practically dares his guy to hit his open jumpers.

Fisher almost always falls back a couple of steps when guarding Tony Parker. Fisher gives Tony the jumper, which is the last thing Tony wants to do as he's so effective at penetrating. So what, Tony will hit 3 in a row, but once he misses a gimmie, he goes cold quick. So does Bowen. Even Pao was laying off of Duncan's jumper. It's a psychological thing as Pops offense isn't built to be selfish in that way. His offense is ALL about penetration and ball movement, so when the defense falls back allowing the 17 footers, the Spurs are uncomfortable doing this.

The ONE guy on the Spurs who can still create a strong drive without charging when his defender falls back is Manu and it's difficult for him to get something going when Bryant is on him. Parker can penetrate, but he looks very sloppy when his defender is falling back.

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by dobophile:
Almost official . . .

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news;_ylt=AqwhX2LnI_9PcYIreRzdOws5nYcB?slug=aw-goodenspurs030309&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Still almost official. I'm watching the game and they keep saying it's pretty much a done deal, but I won't celebrate it until he actually signs.

Also...gotta stop missing these open shots! Gah!

Spurs always have those can't hit open shots moments. They seem to have this more than any team I know. Last years playoffs were the worst where they would be guaranteed to have a 10 or 12 point quarter in every game. This killed them last year.

I think it has a lot to do with Pop's style. He is too controlling and the players lose confidence in the desire to take an open shot as soon as they are open. I usually see them try to look for one more pass even if it's obvious that their man is dropping back. Just let it go!!!

I disagree.

The offensive struggles during last year's playoffs were attributable to Manu being so gimpy. When Manu is slashing and attacking and doing Gumby contortions in the lane, opposing defenses get confused and start acting erratically. With a healthy Manu and Tony, the Spurs have two solid penetrating threats, as well as a strong inside presence in Duncan. When all three are healthy, the Spurs offense works beautifully, with a lot of motion and with role players hitting outside shots.

The 2008 playoffs showed how the Spurs offense is very ineffective when Manu's slowed by injury. Sure, he scored a bunch of points off of his outside shooting, but that's not his job. The Spurs have had players like Horry, Finley, Bonner, Mason, Barry, and Bowen for a reason. They get the open shot when opposing defenses collapse. When you have Manu only taking outside shots, that's a bad thing.

This is what I saw in the playoffs last year. The Spurs were unable to throw opposing defenses into disarray. The defenses were not collapsing in the lane. So, on offense, the Spurs relied on: (1) Duncan overcoming double and triple teams, and (2) someone else stepping up and hitting outside shots. That's it. It worked against Phoenix, and it barely worked against New Orleans. But you can't beat the Lakers like that.

I saw the exact opposite. I saw teams completely falling back and daring Parker and the other role players beside Manu take the 3-pointer. They fell back on Duncan making it difficult for him to get the ball. Once a Spur misses a wide open gimmie, it always seems as though they are super hesitant to take it again. This is exactly what the Lakers did to them. Jackson has ALWAYS done this with every team he has coached. If the opposition is hitting their shots, then Jackson's only hope is to hope the best scorer in the NBA (which he has had during his entire coaching tenure) can play lights out when it's needed. However, when he sees a few players for the opposition missing shots, he assigns a "roamer" who falls back for the quick help or steals and practically dares his guy to hit his open jumpers.

Fisher almost always falls back a couple of steps when guarding Tony Parker. Fisher gives Tony the jumper, which is the last thing Tony wants to do as he's so effective at penetrating. So what, Tony will hit 3 in a row, but once he misses a gimmie, he goes cold quick. So does Bowen. Even Pao was laying off of Duncan's jumper. It's a psychological thing as Pops offense isn't built to be selfish in that way. His offense is ALL about penetration and ball movement, so when the defense falls back allowing the 17 footers, the Spurs are uncomfortable doing this.

The ONE guy on the Spurs who can still create a strong drive without charging when his defender falls back is Manu and it's difficult for him to get something going when Bryant is on him. Parker can penetrate, but he looks very sloppy when his defender is falling back.

I don't think you saw the exact opposite.

"[Pop's] offense is ALL about penetration and ball movement, so when the defense falls back allowing the 17 footers, the Spurs are uncomfortable doing this."

That's pretty much right. Three things have to happen for the Spurs offense to work: (1) Tim has to establish himself inside; (2) Manu (and, to a lesser extent) Tony need to penetrate; and (3) role players need to hit outside shots. It's pretty simple, really.

If the Spurs are getting (1) and (2), opposing defense simply cannot fall back because of all the movement. In motion, with (1) and (2), the role players will start hitting shots. In other words, (3) is dependent on (1) and (2). If you take Manu's penetration out of the equation . . . the Spurs simply cannot get anything going offensively because there will be almost no movement. Movement is the key, like you said.

Falling back is the KEY ingredient to stopping the Spurs from getting (1) and (2). The shooters like that rhythm of shooting on the catch. You fall in and now you are sitting in Duncan's lap and forcing Bowen to spot up and take an early shot. You fall back and you are crowding the key for Manu or Tony to drive in. It works much less on Manu because he doesn't care, he will drain the outside shot no matter how many times he misses it. Tony let's it get to him to the point where he will continuously pass up the jumper and force the drive where a falling back Fisher is great at taking the charge or swiping at the ball. At this point, once Fisher gets Parker cold on the jumper, he tends to leave him to roam around where he swipes at balls and is very good at getting them loose, even from Duncan.

Phil is the one coach who doesn't fear the Spurs outside shooting at all and doesn't respect it because if the Spurs are hitting, well, he's got Kobe to counter, especially late in games. If the Spurs begin missing, well, it's a blowout. This was the case where the Spurs were barely winning in the wins but getting handled in the losses.

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by dobophile:
Almost official . . .

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news;_ylt=AqwhX2LnI_9PcYIreRzdOws5nYcB?slug=aw-goodenspurs030309&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Still almost official. I'm watching the game and they keep saying it's pretty much a done deal, but I won't celebrate it until he actually signs.

Also...gotta stop missing these open shots! Gah!

Spurs always have those can't hit open shots moments. They seem to have this more than any team I know. Last years playoffs were the worst where they would be guaranteed to have a 10 or 12 point quarter in every game. This killed them last year.

I think it has a lot to do with Pop's style. He is too controlling and the players lose confidence in the desire to take an open shot as soon as they are open. I usually see them try to look for one more pass even if it's obvious that their man is dropping back. Just let it go!!!

I disagree.

The offensive struggles during last year's playoffs were attributable to Manu being so gimpy. When Manu is slashing and attacking and doing Gumby contortions in the lane, opposing defenses get confused and start acting erratically. With a healthy Manu and Tony, the Spurs have two solid penetrating threats, as well as a strong inside presence in Duncan. When all three are healthy, the Spurs offense works beautifully, with a lot of motion and with role players hitting outside shots.

The 2008 playoffs showed how the Spurs offense is very ineffective when Manu's slowed by injury. Sure, he scored a bunch of points off of his outside shooting, but that's not his job. The Spurs have had players like Horry, Finley, Bonner, Mason, Barry, and Bowen for a reason. They get the open shot when opposing defenses collapse. When you have Manu only taking outside shots, that's a bad thing.

This is what I saw in the playoffs last year. The Spurs were unable to throw opposing defenses into disarray. The defenses were not collapsing in the lane. So, on offense, the Spurs relied on: (1) Duncan overcoming double and triple teams, and (2) someone else stepping up and hitting outside shots. That's it. It worked against Phoenix, and it barely worked against New Orleans. But you can't beat the Lakers like that.

I saw the exact opposite. I saw teams completely falling back and daring Parker and the other role players beside Manu take the 3-pointer. They fell back on Duncan making it difficult for him to get the ball. Once a Spur misses a wide open gimmie, it always seems as though they are super hesitant to take it again. This is exactly what the Lakers did to them. Jackson has ALWAYS done this with every team he has coached. If the opposition is hitting their shots, then Jackson's only hope is to hope the best scorer in the NBA (which he has had during his entire coaching tenure) can play lights out when it's needed. However, when he sees a few players for the opposition missing shots, he assigns a "roamer" who falls back for the quick help or steals and practically dares his guy to hit his open jumpers.

Fisher almost always falls back a couple of steps when guarding Tony Parker. Fisher gives Tony the jumper, which is the last thing Tony wants to do as he's so effective at penetrating. So what, Tony will hit 3 in a row, but once he misses a gimmie, he goes cold quick. So does Bowen. Even Pao was laying off of Duncan's jumper. It's a psychological thing as Pops offense isn't built to be selfish in that way. His offense is ALL about penetration and ball movement, so when the defense falls back allowing the 17 footers, the Spurs are uncomfortable doing this.

The ONE guy on the Spurs who can still create a strong drive without charging when his defender falls back is Manu and it's difficult for him to get something going when Bryant is on him. Parker can penetrate, but he looks very sloppy when his defender is falling back.

I don't think you saw the exact opposite.

"[Pop's] offense is ALL about penetration and ball movement, so when the defense falls back allowing the 17 footers, the Spurs are uncomfortable doing this."

That's pretty much right. Three things have to happen for the Spurs offense to work: (1) Tim has to establish himself inside; (2) Manu (and, to a lesser extent) Tony need to penetrate; and (3) role players need to hit outside shots. It's pretty simple, really.

If the Spurs are getting (1) and (2), opposing defense simply cannot fall back because of all the movement. In motion, with (1) and (2), the role players will start hitting shots. In other words, (3) is dependent on (1) and (2). If you take Manu's penetration out of the equation . . . the Spurs simply cannot get anything going offensively because there will be almost no movement. Movement is the key, like you said.

Falling back is the KEY ingredient to stopping the Spurs from getting (1) and (2). The shooters like that rhythm of shooting on the catch. You fall in and now you are sitting in Duncan's lap and forcing Bowen to spot up and take an early shot. You fall back and you are crowding the key for Manu or Tony to drive in. It works much less on Manu because he doesn't care, he will drain the outside shot no matter how many times he misses it. Tony let's it get to him to the point where he will continuously pass up the jumper and force the drive where a falling back Fisher is great at taking the charge or swiping at the ball. At this point, once Fisher gets Parker cold on the jumper, he tends to leave him to roam around where he swipes at balls and is very good at getting them loose, even from Duncan.

Phil is the one coach who doesn't fear the Spurs outside shooting at all and doesn't respect it because if the Spurs are hitting, well, he's got Kobe to counter, especially late in games. If the Spurs begin missing, well, it's a blowout. This was the case where the Spurs were barely winning in the wins but getting handled in the losses.

I really don't think falling back would have been effective if Manu had not been hurt. At some point, defenses have to abandon that strategy when the Spurs are playing well.

When role players did hit shots during the playoffs, the opposing defenses did stop falling back, but the Spurs had no way of capitalizing with penetration. Once the hot hand went cold, the defense fell back. I'm sorry, but what Phil Jackson accomplished against the Spurs was not inspired coaching. It was obvious what he had to do given Manu's injury.

Falling back would not have worked with a healthy Manu.

No, I agree, most teams change their plan once the Spurs start hitting their shots but Jackson is the one coach who doesn't let it seem to phase his game calling. He still has his players fall back. He may give that one shooter a little more attention but not enough to change his plan of clogging the lane.

FWIW, Jackson also leaves Duncan in single coverage a lot more than just about another coach does.

Anyway, continue...

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
FWIW, Jackson also leaves Duncan in single coverage a lot more than just about another coach does.

Anyway, continue...

And why not? I mean, unless your playing against a player who can score 60, letting a 22 point player stay singled up isn't going to hurt you much. What hurts the most is doubling a 22 point player and allowing 10 point players wide open shots so that they score 15+.

Again, Phil has always had the luxury of having that 60-point man.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
FWIW, Jackson also leaves Duncan in single coverage a lot more than just about another coach does.

Anyway, continue...

And why not? I mean, unless your playing against a player who can score 60, letting a 22 point player stay singled up isn't going to hurt you much. What hurts the most is doubling a 22 point player and allowing 10 point players wide open shots so that they score 15+.

Again, Phil has always had the luxury of having that 60-point man.

I think you're selling Duncan short. He doesn't have Kobe's scoring capability, but in single coverage he's a threat to go for 35+, that's for sure.

Ahem!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by dman:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by dman:
^

haha are you serious?

Our dorky white guy>>>>>their dorky white guy.

yes sir

the machine >>>>> boner

Sushi:

Mins: 16
FG%: .377
3pt%: .356
Reb: 1.8
Stl: .95
Pts: 5.8


Matt Bonner:

Mins: 23.8
FG%: .510
3pt%: .471
Reb: 4.9
Stl: .6
Pts: 8.8




Bonner shoots 3s better than your guy shoots 2's.

Our redhead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your white guy

Originally posted by Joecool:
Sushi:

Mins: 16
FG%: .377
3pt%: .356
Reb: 1.8
Stl: .95
Pts: 5.8

You sure those aren't Manu's stats from the Western Conference Finals last year?

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Sushi:

Mins: 16
FG%: .377
3pt%: .356
Reb: 1.8
Stl: .95
Pts: 5.8

You sure those aren't Manu's stats from the Western Conference Finals last year?

You sure those aren't Kobe's stats from the NBA Finals last year?

Pretty sure.

But I'm positive that they're not Kobe's stats from the WCF's last year.

I really hope Pop puts George Hill on Fisher or whoever the PG is for the Lakers. Hill is 6'2" but has the wing span of a 6'5" player and he's very disruptive on the passes. He gave Nash a very tough time getting the ball to his teammates. Fisher and Jordan F. did us in last year in key situations, especially Jordan coming off the bench against our twos. Tony has really improved his defense this year and with Hill as a backup, I don't think the Lakers PGs will be as effective this year.

Good to see Pop beginning to give these guys more playing time lately.

Fisher's pretty much just a catch and shoot player. You don't really need a good defender to guard him. Maybe Hill's length could challenge Fisher's shot a bit more than Parker can, but most of Fish's shots come from the defense collapsing on Kobe/Gasol/Bynum.