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Wide receivers ARE getting open!

Originally posted by dj43:
Yes, you may use it.

I believe CK's hesitation if a result of coaching, or lack of it.

I'm about finished ranting about Harbaugh for today. I will close with this: Harbaugh's rep as a quarterback whisperer is over blown. Yes, Johnson was good at San Diego but he did nothing beyond that level. Harbaugh was a good recruiter at Stanford to get the #2 QB prospect in the nation to come there (Lucky?), so he looked good, but the truth is, that Stanford team was a running team more than passing. Now Luck has shown he was good after Harbaugh left and is very good in the pros which leads me to conclude that Harbaugh was not all that instrumental in his career. Those who say Harbaugh resurrected Smith's career just were not paying attention. Smith became a very good QB the year before Harbaugh arrived. Harbaugh APPEARED to help him along the way but Smith is doing very well in KC without Harbaugh, thank you very much. So before we all bow down to the Throne of Harbaugh, let's see if he can use some of the other weapons he has on this team that are not named Gore or The Anointed One.

With that, I'm off to a late round of golf.

Excellent points...and thank you kind sir...I will use that term throughout!

Enjoy your round...
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by susweel:
Funny how all the TV announcers and experts are saying the WRs are not getting open but the internet couch potatoes seem to disagree.

Bringing up TV announcers does NOT help make your point.

Most of them are ex players, so it is better than trusting couch potatoes.
Originally posted by NinerG94:
Originally posted by 49ersHeroine:
Kali49er, great post. I agree with you all the way. Me and my friends have been talking about this. He's been open quite a bit since the rams game. Kap is a lock on one wide out QB. 1st it was Crabs, then Boldin now most logical VD. As much as Vernon is my favorite Niner. We're going to have to start getting the ball to Baldwin especially with VD and Boldin double/triple teamed. Baldwin 6'4 235 pounds fast with a 42 freakin inch vertical and he gets single coverage every snap. Dude Kaps needs to get it together!

I don't get the love for measurables around here. Baldwin gets zero separation. You don't just throw up a lob every time you get single coverage. Baldwin may have a 42" vertical but he has zero ball skills. NONE. You act like its comparable to throwing one up to Julio or Calvin. Those are the type of WR's you throw one up to in single coverage. Those guys you can count on to make a play. Baldwin has shown nothing. He hasn't even shown he can make uncontested catches and you want to start throwing up jump balls to him? Aside from his size and slight ability to get off press coverage he's worthless. As soon as Manningham is healthy, Baldwin is heading straight to the bench.

You know not, because you seek not!!!

Watch his highlight reels, he has made some of the greatest catches you have absolutely ever seen, you boy!
Especially against Future HOF Brian Dawkins. Watch his college and KC highlights. Then get at me
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Yes, you may use it.

I believe CK's hesitation if a result of coaching, or lack of it.

I'm about finished ranting about Harbaugh for today. I will close with this: Harbaugh's rep as a quarterback whisperer is over blown. Yes, Johnson was good at San Diego but he did nothing beyond that level. Harbaugh was a good recruiter at Stanford to get the #2 QB prospect in the nation to come there (Lucky?), so he looked good, but the truth is, that Stanford team was a running team more than passing. Now Luck has shown he was good after Harbaugh left and is very good in the pros which leads me to conclude that Harbaugh was not all that instrumental in his career. Those who say Harbaugh resurrected Smith's career just were not paying attention. Smith became a very good QB the year before Harbaugh arrived. Harbaugh APPEARED to help him along the way but Smith is doing very well in KC without Harbaugh, thank you very much. So before we all bow down to the Throne of Harbaugh, let's see if he can use some of the other weapons he has on this team that are not named Gore or The Anointed One.

With that, I'm off to a late round of golf.

Excellent points...and thank you kind sir...I will use that term throughout!

Enjoy your round...
For some strange reason Harbaugh seems to win wherever he goes and the QBs play well? It is all I care about
[ Edited by Pillbusta on Oct 15, 2013 at 2:56 PM ]
Originally posted by dj43:
Harbaugh APPEARED to help him along the way but Smith is doing very well in KC without Harbaugh, thank you very much.
Smith has been playing like his old sorry self for the last three games and his team won thanks to their great defense and special teams. Did you know that they had six pro bowlers last year? And btw, their opponents have a 11-25 combined record -- 11-19 if you substract KC's wins.

I don't think you're talking based on knowledge. You're talking out of your ass trying to sound smart.

[edit] And in case you didn't know: Andy Reid is a pretty good offensive coach himself who helped Michael Vick to finally become a successful NFL Passer.
[ Edited by zugschef on Oct 15, 2013 at 3:10 PM ]
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
For some strange reason Harbaugh seems to win wherever he goes and the QBs play well? It is all I care about

Oh come on...you're a Niner fan. You have to have higher standards than that...Quest 4 6! j/k!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
For some strange reason Harbaugh seems to win wherever he goes and the QBs play well? It is all I care about

Oh come on...you're a Niner fan. You have to have higher standards than that...Quest 4 6! j/k!

LOL!! But yes since I was a fan during the glory days 80s and 90s and hopefully now again, I can understand the infatuation with QB excellence, precision passing, WCO and etc. But as the Nolantary regime progressed, I came around to smash mouth football. I especially liked it in 2011 when the league was trending towards being pass happy QB centric, it was Harbaugh that reminded the NFL that you can win and be formidable with a power run offense, physical defense and excellent special teams. It was solely our MO until midseason Pete picked up on it and now you see the adaptation league wide. Why do you think we saw GB get that big back or NE pulling and whamming now in their rushing attack or ATL adding Stephen Jackson? Teams see that you don't beat a team like us unless you can bring it in the trenches. It is not just about the QB and 400 yards passing anymore for us. We got back to us these last 3 games and I like it no matter if Jim is a whisperer or not, just be a winner!!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
These types of plays (one primary receiving option) are run several times throughout the game by Roman on critical downs. Most of the time, they work beautifully. This is not the type of play where you can penalize Kap for being a one read QB since the play design calls for only one option to be looked to. NC, I agree with you when you say this is the anti-WCO. To me, a staple of the WCO are the passes to RBs as an extension of the run game. This does not exist in the current Roman offense.

Regarding these plays where only one read is needed to be made, I call it great formation/play design. Two traits of a great offensive play is being simple to execute, and effectiveness (it works). Roman runs these plays out of several formations with different variations. Sometimes the primary receiver runs an In route, sometimes a short out route. Either way, you can see it coming when it's 3rd and long with bunch WRs to one side of the formation. The bunching is to prevent the press and jam at the line of scrimmage. I did not see how SEA stopped this, but I don't doubt your observation regarding how SEA defended this play.


I don't think Kap is a one read QB, but I do think he stares down his read for too long before moving on to the next read. The game is fast for him right now and only experience will slow the game down. He can study his ass off in the film room and all it might do is make him think more once the ball is snapped.

About WRs not getting separation, from my amateur analysis, I do not think they are getting consistent separation. This includes Boldin. Baldwin is slow making cuts, Williams gets re-rerouted with a one arm shove. Moore, I don't even notice him on the field.

GB played zone too many times, while gearing up to play the run, and got torched.
SEA played press man and did it very well while bringing pressure with 4 rushers.
IND copied SEA and Roman continued to try throwing downfield to WRs who were not getting open. Kap also began showing a lot of impatience in the pocket in this game.
HOU did the same as SEA, but sent 5 pass rushers on nearly every pass play, forcing Kap to make quick decisions. Can't make too many reads when the pressure is coming.
ARI copied HOU.

Straight up, Kap is not good enough right now to consistently beat the blitz, but he is getting better. He is identifying the 1 on 1 matchup he likes, pre-snap, and is not hesitant in going there. This was evident on the VD touchdown with 2 minutes left (1st half) in the ARI game.

Very nice post! I'm really glad you brought up 3rd downs for a couple reasons. First. you are spot on in that my observations are that that is exactly when we run the annointed receiver routes the most as well (as referenced in the video I provided). And two, we are in 3rd and longs a ton (so it appears). But it's not b/c of failure on 2nd down. It's d/t an inability to "scheme" positive yards on 1st down. Our first down production has been horrendous under both QB's. If we get 4+ yards on first down, that is critically successful for our offense b/c we can then run or pass on 2nd down (or even fail) and still be in a manageable 3rd down. Most importantly, it takes away from the predictability for the defense. How often are we in 2nd and 15 or 2nd and 10? A lot...this clearly was an issue under Alex's tenure as well (although the media can still only focus on the 1 for 13 on 3rd downs in the NFCCG...it was the lack of production on first down that played right into the Giants pass rush/strength on 2nd and 3rd downs). Rhythm? Our offense has seemed "spotty" in rhythm since day 1...when were we flowing on offense in both phases of the game in tandem? It seems fragmented, like how the game plans are derived.

Do you think there are hot reads in this offense? B/c CK is often times in the shotgun (gives him that extra second) it seems to me that many of the annointed receiver pre-determined passing plays are designed/schemed to hit that pass in under 3 seconds decreasing the likelihood of a sack.

I do agree that when Roman schemes properly, college-offense or not, it's hard to stop. In fact, one of the commentators said the same thing on one of these plays. How do you stop it..it's like a screen pass...you have WR's already down field blocking as the underneath WR catches it for RAC (think we got a 1st and goal at the 1 or even a TD?).

Now, in my ideal world, we'd run a WCO primarly and have many of these annointed receiver passing plays built into it esp. on 3rd downs. This would get EVERYONE involved and players such as Gore, Hunter and McDonald would be better utilized in both the passing and run game and most importantly, it would help CK out a ton b/c he'd always have a passing outlet. We have far too much talent being wasted here IMHO.

I do not think there are hot reads on every pass play, another staple of a WCO that is missing. With ARI and HOU coming with pressure on nearly every pass play, Roman mostly opted to keep Gore in to block rather than leaking him out. Instead of getting the ball out quickly, Roman chooses to beef up protection and hit targets downfield. I'm not implying it's the wrong thing to do, but Roman, true to form, goes for the explosive pass play. He could mix in a few RB flare routes and hope to get Hunter or LMJ in space as the blitz is coming. Suck the pressure in then leak out a RB into open space for a little swing pass. Yeah right...

I agree that there is some under utilized talent that Roman should tap into. I am sounding like a broken record here, but passes to the RBs in the shallow flats can open up other parts of the field. Right now, there is no reason to cover the RBs in the flats, or the RB at all unless his name is Miller. I am not implying he should go all Alex Smith up in this offense, but forcing the defense to cover the entire field (width and length) is the best thing an offense can do to help itself.

One might wonder why don't all defenses play press man if it's so difficult to beat. It's not difficult to beat if you have a confident, or willing, QB that throws WRs open. Throwing WRs open is THE way to beat tight press man coverage in a 1 on 1 scenario lined out wide. There are only a handful of CBs in the league that can stay on a WR's hip pocket for 4 seconds. Once/if Crabs comes back and gets into playing shape, defenses will not be able to continue going press man nearly 90% of the time. Kap has confidence in Crabs to throw him open. Crabs has the catch radius and body control to position himself where only he can make a play on the ball.

You are spot on in bringing up tough 3rd downs. So many times the 49ers are in 3rd and long. At the start of the year, it was many times due to penalties. But it's not just penalties, it's also the unproductive 1st down passes. Just echoing what you posted above. First downs should be used for running or short positive passing gains to set up the rest of the set of downs.
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
For some strange reason Harbaugh seems to win wherever he goes and the QBs play well? It is all I care about

Oh come on...you're a Niner fan. You have to have higher standards than that...Quest 4 6! j/k!

LOL!! But yes since I was a fan during the glory days 80s and 90s and hopefully now again, I can understand the infatuation with QB excellence, precision passing, WCO and etc. But as the Nolantary regime progressed, I came around to smash mouth football. I especially liked it in 2011 when the league was trending towards being pass happy QB centric, it was Harbaugh that reminded the NFL that you can win and be formidable with a power run offense, physical defense and excellent special teams. It was solely our MO until midseason Pete picked up on it and now you see the adaptation league wide. Why do you think we saw GB get that big back or NE pulling and whamming now in their rushing attack or ATL adding Stephen Jackson? Teams see that you don't beat a team like us unless you can bring it in the trenches. It is not just about the QB and 400 yards passing anymore for us. We got back to us these last 3 games and I like it no matter if Jim is a whisperer or not, just be a winner!!

Amen brother!!! Love it!!!
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Yes, you may use it.

I believe CK's hesitation if a result of coaching, or lack of it.

I'm about finished ranting about Harbaugh for today. I will close with this: Harbaugh's rep as a quarterback whisperer is over blown. Yes, Johnson was good at San Diego but he did nothing beyond that level. Harbaugh was a good recruiter at Stanford to get the #2 QB prospect in the nation to come there (Lucky?), so he looked good, but the truth is, that Stanford team was a running team more than passing. Now Luck has shown he was good after Harbaugh left and is very good in the pros which leads me to conclude that Harbaugh was not all that instrumental in his career. Those who say Harbaugh resurrected Smith's career just were not paying attention. Smith became a very good QB the year before Harbaugh arrived. Harbaugh APPEARED to help him along the way but Smith is doing very well in KC without Harbaugh, thank you very much. So before we all bow down to the Throne of Harbaugh, let's see if he can use some of the other weapons he has on this team that are not named Gore or The Anointed One.

With that, I'm off to a late round of golf.

Excellent points...and thank you kind sir...I will use that term throughout!

Enjoy your round...
For some strange reason Harbaugh seems to win wherever he goes and the QBs play well? It is all I care about


Yeah he just got lucky. Everywhere he goes he just lucks into getting good players which make him look better than he is. He also got lucky that the Niners were already an elite team and Alex Smith was killing one team after the other BEFORE he ever became coach of the Niners. So he had 11+ wins in consecutive seasons in his first two seasons here, something Bill Walsh never did? Big deal!!! We could have brought in anyone and they would have done the same. So he went to the NFCCG and the Super Bowl his first two seasons with the Niners? Doesn't impress me. We should have won 3 Super Bowls in 2 years if we had a real coach.
Originally posted by thl408:
I do not think there are hot reads on every pass play, another staple of a WCO that is missing. With ARI and HOU coming with pressure on nearly every pass play, Roman mostly opted to keep Gore in to block rather than leaking him out. Instead of getting the ball out quickly, Roman chooses to beef up protection and hit targets downfield. I'm not implying it's the wrong thing to do, but Roman, true to form, goes for the explosive pass play. He could mix in a few RB flare routes and hope to get Hunter or LMJ in space as the blitz is coming. Suck the pressure in then leak out a RB into open space for a little swing pass. Yeah right...

I agree that there is some under utilized talent that Roman should tap into. I am sounding like a broken record here, but passes to the RBs in the shallow flats can open up other parts of the field. Right now, there is no reason to cover the RBs in the flats, or the RB at all unless his name is Miller. I am not implying he should go all Alex Smith up in this offense, but forcing the defense to cover the entire field (width and length) is the best thing an offense can do to help itself.

One might wonder why don't all defenses play press man if it's so difficult to beat. It's not difficult to beat if you have a confident, or willing, QB that throws WRs open. Throwing WRs open is THE way to beat tight press man coverage in a 1 on 1 scenario lined out wide. There are only a handful of CBs in the league that can stay on a WR's hip pocket for 4 seconds. Once/if Crabs comes back and gets into playing shape, defenses will not be able to continue going press man nearly 90% of the time. Kap has confidence in Crabs to throw him open. Crabs has the catch radius and body control to position himself where only he can make a play on the ball.

You are spot on in bringing up tough 3rd downs. So many times the 49ers are in 3rd and long. At the start of the year, it was many times due to penalties. But it's not just penalties, it's also the unproductive 1st down passes. Just echoing what you posted above. First downs should be used for running or short positive passing gains to set up the rest of the set of downs.

Oh good, I was just wondering if you happen to see something I missed!

And I think you and I think WAY too much WCO...literally, everything you are saying (and I'm mirroring) is grounded in basic WCO principles. I hate to say it but I feel lied to by Roman. When he came on board all he talked about was burying himself in the basement under mounds of WCO tapes recorded by historical Niner coaches. And now? You'd be hard-pressed to find a SINGLE WCO passing play or formation or run blocking scheme grounded in WCO principles...and CK's mechanics? I don't even want to go there!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh good, I was just wondering if you happen to see something I missed!

And I think you and I think WAY too much WCO...literally, everything you are saying (and I'm mirroring) is grounded in basic WCO principles. I hate to say it but I feel lied to by Roman. When he came on board all he talked about was burying himself in the basement under mounds of WCO tapes recorded by historical Niner coaches. And now? You'd be hard-pressed to find a SINGLE WCO passing play or formation or run blocking scheme grounded in WCO principles...and CK's mechanics? I don't even want to go there!

Yeah I think we'll just make ourselves frustrated waiting for elements of the WCO to appear. It's just us longing for the days when Walsh would systematically carve into defenses. Perhaps it is time to let go.

But, just one more gripe about 'why don't we run more WCO concepts?' Montana and Young never lined up in shotgun. I believe Walsh said it messed with the timing and the footwork of the QB. Also it forces the QB to take his eyes off the field of play to receive the snap while in shotgun. I think Kap needs to get under center on passing plays so that his eyes can remain on the field and reading coverage during the dropback. Taking his eyes off the defense, even for a split second, forces Kap to have to re-adjust his sight after securing the snap. If Kap is pressed for time (blitz coming), then allow him to keep his eyes on the field of play so that he has half a second more to read the defense, and thus, perhaps less locking on receivers.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh good, I was just wondering if you happen to see something I missed!

And I think you and I think WAY too much WCO...literally, everything you are saying (and I'm mirroring) is grounded in basic WCO principles. I hate to say it but I feel lied to by Roman. When he came on board all he talked about was burying himself in the basement under mounds of WCO tapes recorded by historical Niner coaches. And now? You'd be hard-pressed to find a SINGLE WCO passing play or formation or run blocking scheme grounded in WCO principles...and CK's mechanics? I don't even want to go there!

Yeah I think we'll just make ourselves frustrated waiting for elements of the WCO to appear. It's just us longing for the days when Walsh would systematically carve into defenses. Perhaps it is time to let go.

But, just one more gripe about 'why don't we run more WCO concepts?' Montana and Young never lined up in shotgun. I believe Walsh said it messed with the timing and the footwork of the QB. Also it forces the QB to take his eyes off the field of play to receive the snap while in shotgun. I think Kap needs to get under center on passing plays so that his eyes can remain on the field and reading coverage during the dropback. Taking his eyes off the defense, even for a split second, forces Kap to have to re-adjust his sight after securing the snap. If Kap is pressed for time (blitz coming), then allow him to keep his eyes on the field of play so that he has half a second more to read the defense, and thus, perhaps less locking on receivers.

Yeah, gone are the days of the "well-oiled-machine" and "boy, everyone is getting involved here...that's the 9th different receiver this game!"

That is a very good point...never thought of how the eyes might be tied to the field in a 3, 5 or 6-step drop. I always just thought of the drop-back synchronized with the receivers route. Good times!
Arguing about what Kap is doing wrong is pointless. Hes very good, hes young, hes inexperienced. The fact that hes not Peyton Manning after 16 starts is to be expected. Hes far ahead of where Manning was at this point of his career. Hes going to correct all the mistakes as he goes, and in a couple years he'll be a polished pro bowler. Just enjoy watching him blossom and the team win at the same time. People focus too much on the things he needs to work on.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Arguing about what Kap is doing wrong is pointless. Hes very good, hes young, hes inexperienced. The fact that hes not Peyton Manning after 16 starts is to be expected. Hes far ahead of where Manning was at this point of his career. Hes going to correct all the mistakes as he goes, and in a couple years he'll be a polished pro bowler. Just enjoy watching him blossom and the team win at the same time. People focus too much on the things he needs to work on.
Yes. That's coach job. I'm a fan so I enjoy the winning